Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[Blindtraveler]

Thank you for that, really very interesting.

 

[Cloud Strife]

This system allows instant control of the ship from the bridge, and reduces wear on the engines.

Thanks for that, it was very interesting!

About the instant control of the ship: is this not normal on all ships? I'm confused by this statement that it reduces wear on engines in particular - is it the case that some ships have their speed controlled by the engine control rooms and not by the bridge? I have to admit, I always thought that controlling the speed was done by some sort of thrust lever, like on a plane.

 

[BayPaul]

Thanks for that, it was very interesting!

About the instant control of the ship: is this not normal on all ships? I'm confused by this statement that it reduces wear on engines in particular - is it the case that some ships have their speed controlled by the engine control rooms and not by the bridge?

(very) old ships used to be direct drive, with engines needing to be stopped, valve timing changed and restarted backwards to go astern. Other ships have a gear box to allow for reversing. These ships may only have engine room control, the telegraph on the bridge is literally that, a communication to the engineers to request an engine movement.

Diesel electric is increasingly common, similar to in a locomotive, it allows very easy transfer of power to the propellers (or often pods on technically complex ships)

 

[Indigo Soup]

(very) old ships used to be direct drive, with engines needing to be stopped, valve timing changed and restarted backwards to go astern.

The really big deep sea stuff with two-stroke slow-speed diesels still does work this way.

 

[Southsider]

To add some semi-technical detail. Caley Isles, like most ferries is driven by controllable pitch propellers. These spin constantly in the same direction and generally at the same speed, and the angle of the individual blades is adjusted to vary the thrust from full ahead, through neutral to full astern.

These blades are attached to the hub, together making the propeller. They twist in their mounts on the hub, to adjust their pitch, with a rather complicated mechanism of push rods that runs all the way up the hollow propeller shaft back into the engine room, where there is a hydraulic unit then the connection to the telegraphs on the bridge.

This system allows instant control of the ship from the bridge, and reduces wear on the engines. The disadvantage is its complexity, and that many of the critical components are located in the hub, which is both underwater and spinning at several hundred rpm!

It sounds like there is some kind of jam in the mechanism, which is limiting the pitch to only around 15%.

Disclaimer: I'm just a simple navigating officer who hasn't worked on Caley Isles, so I may have some details wrong!

The mechanism sounds similar to the one that caused problems on Hebridean Isles.

 

[AdamWW]

Diesel electric is increasingly common, similar to in a locomotive, it allows very easy transfer of power to the propellers (or often pods on technically complex ships)

And I believe there are still some Royal Navy ships using Paxman Valentas (as originally used in HST power cars) for this purpose.

 

[Grinner]

Caledonian Isle has returned to dock in Greenock as the issue have still not been resolved. So there will have to be a mass rotation of vessels next week to cover essential maintenance on the Alfred: Isle of Mull moves to the South Uist run leaving the main Mull route with just the two smaller vessels (Coruisk and Loch Frisa); this frees up Lord of the Isles to go to Islay, which in turn frees up Isle of Arran to run Ardrossan-Brodick in place of Caley Isles.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Not the news CalMac were hoping for. It's concerning that they're not even sure if she will need dry docked or not, as it says that CalMac aren't sure themselves as to the extent of the problem. Isle of Mull will do a handful of calls at Craignure on Mull to help things, but it's still going to be a very difficult few weeks.

The worst thing about this entire saga is that it's now very clear that Andrew Banks was right: a cheap Asian ship has been perfectly reliable and suitable for the route. At this moment, I bet there are some people in CMAL wondering why they didn't just go with four of these ships for the Arran run!

 

[Sealink]

MV Isle of Mull is now returning from Greenock having had her evacuation system upgraded, and is due to resume service on the Oban-Craignure route on Monday. That'll be a huge relief to everyone on Mull as the two small vessels have been really struggling to cope with demand.

I always found it incredible that the sister ship on the route Oban-Craignure was the Coriusk and more recently Loch Frisa. They are both tiny in comparison!

 

[Transilien]

I always found it incredible that the sister ship on the route Oban-Craignure was the Coriusk and more recently Loch Frisa. They are both tiny in comparison!

It shows that CalMac probably doesn’t need such big ships on around hour long sailings. Smaller, more frequent ships would cater better for Islanders.

 

[Sealink]

It shows that CalMac probably doesn’t need such big ships on around hour long sailings. Smaller, more frequent ships would cater better for Islanders.

Oban-Lismore takes 55 minutes and they get the tiny Loch Striven, not even a vending machine on board (sister ship Loch Riddon used to do the 5 minute Colintraive - Rhubodach sailing); of course population of Lismore is vastly lower than Mull!

 

[Cloud Strife]

I always found it incredible that the sister ship on the route Oban-Craignure was the Coriusk and more recently Loch Frisa. They are both tiny in comparison!

It is quite incredible, but consider that Arran until very recently was operated with a single ship, even in summer!

It shows that CalMac probably doesn’t need such big ships on around hour long sailings. Smaller, more frequent ships would cater better for Islanders.

It's my opinion that one of the major mistakes made by the Scottish Government (and before that, the Scottish Office) was not to invest in frequency as opposed to capacity. If you look how Jadrolinja do it in Croatia, some of their island routes effectively don't have a timetable in summer, they just run non-stop according to the demand. An example is with the Drevnik-Sucuraj (Hvar) ferry: there is a timetable for a one ship operation, but in practice, a second ship is used to provide a more intensive service. The same is with the Orebić - Korcula ferry, where theoretically one ship is in service, but in practice, a second usually runs to clear the traffic.

Some routes suit a large ship more, such as Ullapool-Stornoway, but when you look at how Western Ferries do things with an incredibly frequent and basic ship service, I'm convinced this is a better model for Arran and Mull. You wouldn't want to do Oban-Lochboisdale on Alfred, but Ardrossan-Brodick or Oban-Craignure? Why not?

 

[Sealink]

The one thing I read all the time is that catamarans are the answer. Apparently even new builds have staff accommodation.

If a catamaran can run on Pentland Firth (and years ago, the North Channel) I am sure they can cope with the West Coast of Scotland.

 

[Southsider]

The one thing I read all the time is that catamarans are the answer. Apparently even new builds have staff accommodation.

If a catamaran can run on Pentland Firth (and years ago, the North Channel) I am sure they can cope with the West Coast of Scotland.

They’re out in the North Atlantic in the Canary Islands. Lanzarote to Fuerteventura is a similar crossing to Ardrossan to Brodick but done in twenty minutes.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The one thing I read all the time is that catamarans are the answer. Apparently even new builds have staff accommodation.

Yes, Alfred has 12 crew cabins, one for each member of the crew. While it's not really needed for CalMac who employ locally for many reasons, it shows that it's perfectly possible to operate a catamaran operation in Scotland with crews working on rotation. The days of the fast catamarans are mostly over, but Andrew Banks did his homework and figured out that a slow moving catamaran would provide sufficient vehicle capacity while still being very economic to run. I think the key difference is that CalMac are trying to be something to everyone, whereas both Pentland and Western Ferries are much more focused on simply getting people from A to B without any frills.

It's not to say that the CalMac experience on the large vessels isn't nice, but I think the islanders would far prefer four basic catamarans doing Brodick-Ardrossan than two large ships with all the bells and whistles. Yes, sometimes it happens that conditions are wild and catamarans would be cancelled, but Alfred seems to be handling the weather there without too many problems.

 

[Arriva Fan]

Yes, Alfred has 12 crew cabins, one for each member of the crew. While it's not really needed for CalMac who employ locally for many reasons, it shows that it's perfectly possible to operate a catamaran operation in Scotland with crews working on rotation. The days of the fast catamarans are mostly over, but Andrew Banks did his homework and figured out that a slow moving catamaran would provide sufficient vehicle capacity while still being very economic to run. I think the key difference is that CalMac are trying to be something to everyone, whereas both Pentland and Western Ferries are much more focused on simply getting people from A to B without any frills.

It's not to say that the CalMac experience on the large vessels isn't nice, but I think the islanders would far prefer four basic catamarans doing Brodick-Ardrossan than two large ships with all the bells and whistles. Yes, sometimes it happens that conditions are wild and catamarans would be cancelled, but Alfred seems to be handling the weather there without too many problems.

Caledonian MacBrayne Major Units are all Live On Board. Although Employed Locally, CalMac Crews are required to Live On Board for Two Weeks.

 

[Grinner]

Latest update on MV Caledonian Isles is that CalMac are not now planning for her to be available until at least 7th September: https://www.calmac.co.uk/en-gb/travel/latest-customer-updates/customer-update-arran-services/#/

Ardrossan-Brodick, up to 0945, 24 July – the service between Ardrossan and Brodick will operate up to the 0945 departure from Ardrossan on 24 July, when MV Isle of Arran will depart from Brodick to Kennacraig.

No service between Ardrossan-Brodick, 25 July – 7 September inclusive – there will be no service between Ardrossan-Brodick while a return to service date for MV Caledonian Isles remains unconfirmed. We are preparing plans on the basis that she may be unavailable to us until at least 7 September.

Means that once Alfred returns from service the main Arran service will be entirely from Troon for the rest of the summer. At least the other routes should be back to "normal" (barring any further breakdowns), with Isle of Mull going back to the main Oban-Craignure route to Mull.

A further complication though is that Troon linkspan requires maintenance between 8-14th September, so Arran will need to be served from Ardrossan - but neither of the current vessels (Glen Sannox and Alfred) can fit there: CalMac will be desperately hoping Caley Isles really is back by then...

 

[Cloud Strife]

A further complication though is that Troon linkspan requires maintenance between 8-14th September, so Arran will need to be served from Ardrossan - but neither of the current vessels (Glen Sannox and Alfred) can fit there: CalMac will be desperately hoping Caley Isles really is back by then...

I think Alfred is capable of sailing on some other routes, so it should be possible to switch her with some other vessel for that period. Either way, it's another nail in the coffin for Ardrossan, and I suspect that all the stakeholders here will be looking very closely to see if it's possible to simply switch full time to Troon.

For the time being, I know Alfred won't fit in Gourock, but Glen Sannox will. In the worst case scenario, Glen Sannox can do Brodick-Gourock in roughly 2:20, although possibly faster if weather isn't a problem.

 

[Ploughman]

Ferry nameplate makes final voyage home​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly10201nn8ohttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly10201nn8o

The nameplate of one of Scotland's longest serving ferries has been returned to Selby, where it was built more than 40 years ago.
A special service was held at Selby Abbey to welcome home the small fragment of the former MV Hebridean Isles.
The ceremony was attended by some of those who helped build the vessel as well as workers from Scottish ferry operator Caledonian MacBrayne, who delivered the nameplate.
Among the congregation was Phil Moat, who said: "It's been great to see everyone again - and to see shipbuilding getting some recognition in a beautiful place like this."
Built by Cochrane Shipbuilers, in Selby, at a cost of £5.5m the ship was launched sideways into the River Ouse in 1985

 

[43055]

I think Alfred is capable of sailing on some other routes, so it should be possible to switch her with some other vessel for that period. Either way, it's another nail in the coffin for Ardrossan, and I suspect that all the stakeholders here will be looking very closely to see if it's possible to simply switch full time to Troon.

For the time being, I know Alfred won't fit in Gourock, but Glen Sannox will. In the worst case scenario, Glen Sannox can do Brodick-Gourock in roughly 2:20, although possibly faster if weather isn't a problem.

Alfred has done Tarbert to Lochmaddy before so if she fits at Uig then that could be a possibility with a swap with the Hebrides?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Alfred has done Tarbert to Lochmaddy before so if she fits at Uig then that could be a possibility with a swap with the Hebrides?

I think she does fit into Uig, so if push comes to shove, it shouldn't be a problem to just do a direct swap like that. It's not desirable, but better than nothing I suppose, especially if Glen Sannox does Brodick-Gourock for additional capacity.

 

[Southsider]

Alfred has done Tarbert to Lochmaddy before so if she fits at Uig then that could be a possibility with a swap with the Hebrides?

And swap Glen Sannox with Clansman and you can run two ships from Ardrossan.

 

[mpthomson]

The news just gets worse…

CalMac to re-draw winter plans as key ailing ferry out up to four more months

The Caledonian Isles was initially taken out of service for substantial work in January 2024.

news.stv.tv

 

[AndrewE]

How about an antidote to the current news then?
See https://news.stv.tv/clip/dolphins-surround-the-waverley-paddle-steamer-as-it-departs
It might cheer you/us up a bit.

 

[notverydeep]

How about an antidote to the current news then?
See https://news.stv.tv/clip/dolphins-surround-the-waverley-paddle-steamer-as-it-departs
It might cheer you/us up a bit.

Perhaps Calmac should take Waverley on extended hire…?

 

[mpthomson]

How about an antidote to the current news then?
See https://news.stv.tv/clip/dolphins-surround-the-waverley-paddle-steamer-as-it-departs
It might cheer you/us up a bit.

Lovely, but it doesn’t help anyone living on Arran.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This must surely be the end for her now

 

[Southsider]

This must surely be the end for her now

Apparently not. The manufacturers of the propulsion system have proposed yet another repair of the existing system or a new one to the latest design, both are being pursued. Lack of dry dock space means she’ll have to sail to Leith.

 

[mpthomson]

Apparently not. The manufacturers of the propulsion system have proposed yet another repair of the existing system or a new one to the latest design, both are being pursued. Lack of dry dock space means she’ll have to sail to Leith.

Ah well, it's only taxpayers money. The GS/GR farce has already cost Scottish taxpayers £750mn or so once maintenance costs for elderly vessels that should have been retired are taken into account, what's a few million more...?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Apparently not. The manufacturers of the propulsion system have proposed yet another repair of the existing system or a new one to the latest design, both are being pursued. Lack of dry dock space means she’ll have to sail to Leith.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the propulsion system completely renewed about 4-5 years ago? It seems ridiculous that it has such problems already, unless this is actually connected to the ongoing case by CalMac against the company that performed some of the repairs to the hull originally. I know there were some issues with the propulsion system connected to the badly performed repairs, so perhaps it's all interconnected.

This must surely be the end for her now

Maybe not the end just yet, but getting closer and closer. If they'd known how bad it was at the beginning, I think she'd have already been scrapped and Ardrossan permanently closed. I imagine this is very much a 'last chance saloon' for her now.