Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[BayPaul]

Perhaps they don't, but I'm sure the Scottish Government could make life difficult for the rest of the Clydeport cluster, if they wanted to.

Peel are much more agile than the Scottish government though. I suspect the government would end up losing in court if they tried to do that, as it would probably break planning /public procurement etc rules.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Peel are much more agile than the Scottish government though. I suspect the government would end up losing in court if they tried to do that, as it would probably break planning /public procurement etc rules.

If they did anything overt, sure.
If they just moved Calmac from certain ports, that might be less open to accusations of illegal tactics.
Of course the ports never should have been privatised in the first place, but it is what it is.

 

[BayPaul]

If they did anything overt, sure.
If they just moved Calmac from certain ports, that might be less open to accusations of illegal tactics.
Of course the ports never should have been privatised in the first place, but it is what it is.

I think Ardrossan is the only Peel port that calmac use.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think Ardrossan is the only Peel port that calmac use.

Hmm, I wonder what else the SGov could use as leverage...

 

[BayPaul]

Hmm, I wonder what else the SGov could use as leverage...

A threat of compulsory purchase? I don't really know what the rules are for that though.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A threat of compulsory purchase? I don't really know what the rules are for that though.

Probably Peel will drag out the process if they decided on that. I was thinking something more alongside investment in rival ports. I wonder what it would take to improve rail-ferry coordination in Troon (maybe a dedicated shuttle bus solution).

 

[BayPaul]

Probably Peel will drag out the process if they decided on that. I was thinking something more alongside investment in rival ports. I wonder what it would take to improve rail-ferry coordination in Troon (maybe a dedicated shuttle bus solution).

The issue with troon isn't so much the rail - ferry connection, its the crossing time, which is 20 mins longer, which means the overall capacity is lower than a smaller ferry running out of Ardrossan. There's already a free shuttle bus to the station, and passengers coming by vehicle are a far bigger market than those coming by train.

Ardrossan is the right port. Calmac need to get it sorted, even if they end up paying over the odds.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The issue with troon isn't so much the rail - ferry connection, its the crossing time, which is 20 mins longer, which means the overall capacity is lower than a smaller ferry running out of Ardrossan. There's already a free shuttle bus to the station, and passengers coming by vehicle are a far bigger market than those coming by train.

Ardrossan is the right port. Calmac need to get it sorted, even if they end up paying over the odds.

Hopefully they find something to make Peel cave in or speed up the crossing to Troon somehow.

 

[BayPaul]

Hopefully they find something to make Peel cave in or speed up the crossing to Troon somehow.

It's just a matter of distance. Troon is further from Brodick than Ardrossan. The only way to speed up the crossing would be to scrap the Glen class and replace them with much faster vessels. That's clearly not going happen!

It can't be more than a few million to fix the Irish berth. At this stage they could just gift the money to Peel, get the job done and still be in a much better position than endless negotiation.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's just a matter of distance. Troon is further from Brodick than Ardrossan. The only way to speed up the crossing would be to scrap the Glen class and replace them with much faster vessels. That's clearly not going happen!

It can't be more than a few million to fix the Irish berth. At this stage they could just gift the money to Peel, get the job done and still be in a much better position than endless negotiation.

Any investment should come with a stake in the port itself to ensure Peel can't use tactics to mess about in future.

 

[BayPaul]

Any investment should come with a stake in the port itself to ensure Peel can't use tactics to mess about in future.

That would be lovely, but it clearly isn't happening. Just build the thing and restore proper service to the long-suffering island!

 

[Cloud Strife]

Hopefully they find something to make Peel cave in or speed up the crossing to Troon somehow.

The issue with Troon is that the new ferries simply aren't fast enough to maintain the same timetable to Troon as Ardrossan, as it was planned that they would keep the same journey time as before. So, they're essentially losing a round trip a day by sailing to Troon rather than Ardrossan, which is a fairly substantial loss of capacity.

It can't be more than a few million to fix the Irish berth. At this stage they could just gift the money to Peel, get the job done and still be in a much better position than endless negotiation.

The issue is that there's a problem with legislation surrounding how ports can be financed. Essentially, the Scottish Government through CMAL or CalMac cannot pay more than a certain amount for the use of the port, and there's also no legislation that allows the SG or the council to execute a compulsory purchase of the port. Essentially, they're at the mercy of Peel, who can charge more or less what they like for the use of Ardrossan without actually providing anything more than the Arran berth. Obviously there are commercial factors involved, but it seems pretty clear that the taxpayer has been fleeced heavily by Peel for the use of Ardrossan.

I actually think at this moment, the more realistic option would be to call Peel's bluff and simply agree long term use of Troon, combined with a new passenger ferry to Saltcoats. There's an area right next to the sea in Saltcoats which would be perfect for a passenger-only fast ferry, and it shouldn't be too expensive to build a new harbour for the use of a passenger ferry. Failing that, there's also an area next to the bus depot in Ardrossan that could be used for a passenger ferry, allowing them to shut down Ardrossan Harbour station and essentially leaving Peel to do what they want with the existing area.

One major issue right now is that the Ardrossan redevelopment project as being negotiated with Peel essentially means the loss of the Irish berth. The proposed design of the new harbour means that it wouldn't be needed, but I have grave doubts about the sense of having Arran be so heavily dependent on a single berth. Troon has two linkspans to my knowledge, although I think the second one is either condemned or at least not in working order.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The issue with Troon is that the new ferries simply aren't fast enough to maintain the same timetable to Troon as Ardrossan, as it was planned that they would keep the same journey time as before. So, they're essentially losing a round trip a day by sailing to Troon rather than Ardrossan, which is a fairly substantial loss of capacity.

Makes sense. What would it take to speed them up? New gearing?

 

[BayPaul]

Makes sense. What would it take to speed them up? New gearing?

New hulls. No chance basically. A short squat displacement hull is limited in speed to its hull velocity, which is probably about their cruising speed.

A finer lined and longer hulled vessel with massive engines around 3 times the power of the Glens could probably get up to about 24 knots, which would cut 10 minutes off the journey time.

Catamarans would be a much better proposition, but they are more vulnerable to weather.

And if you are building new ferries for Arran (again), why not just build ones that fit Ardrossan.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Makes sense. What would it take to speed them up? New gearing?

I believe they're capable of operating at up to 16.5 knots as opposed to the 15 knots of Caledonian Isles, but I believe Glen Sannox is already operating at full speed on the Troon run, while when she goes to Ardrossan, she'll only be operated at 15kn instead of the top speed of 16.5kn.

And if you are building new ferries for Arran (again), why not just build ones that fit Ardrossan.

To be honest, it was an enormous mistake not to build for the current Arran berth in Ardrossan. While the increase in capacity of the Glens is welcome, it would've been enough to have two new ships with comparable dimensions to the Caley Isles. Arran doesn't need more capacity than that, and if it was needed, it would be enough to have a cheap freight boat operate from Troon. As I remember, the islanders at the time said that it was a bad idea to build new ships that wouldn't be able to fit into Ardrossan, and so they've been proved right.

 

[AlastairFraser]

New hulls. No chance basically. A short squat displacement hull is limited in speed to its hull velocity, which is probably about their cruising speed.

A finer lined and longer hulled vessel with massive engines around 3 times the power of the Glens could probably get up to about 24 knots, which would cut 10 minutes off the journey time.

Catamarans would be a much better proposition, but they are more vulnerable to weather.

And if you are building new ferries for Arran (again), why not just build ones that fit Ardrossan.

Fair enough, so you'd need new vessels (very little chance) or a solution at Ardrossan. I like the Saltcoats proposal, because I suspect too much land is owned by Peel to make the elsewhere in Ardrossan alternative viable.
You can also get quite close to the station at Saltcoats with a new port.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

I believe they're capable of operating at up to 16.5 knots as opposed to the 15 knots of Caledonian Isles, but I believe Glen Sannox is already operating at full speed on the Troon run, while when she goes to Ardrossan, she'll only be operated at 15kn instead of the top speed of 16.5kn.

Ah OK. 16.5 kn seems to be quite slower, I'm sure the Dieppe DFDS service is faster (international and much longer, but not exactly the fastest ship either).

 

[matchmaker]

Fair enough, so you'd need new vessels (very little chance) or a solution at Ardrossan. I like the Saltcoats proposal, because I suspect too much land is owned by Peel to make the elsewhere in Ardrossan alternative viable.
You can also get quite close to the station at Saltcoats with a new port.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==


Ah OK. 16.5 kn seems to be quite slower, I'm sure the Dieppe DFDS service is faster (international and much longer, but not exactly the fastest ship either).

If you just look at the CMAL fleet, both Hjaltland and Hrossay are capable of 24 knots. Hamnavoe is capable of 19 knots for a similar length of journey.

 

[43055]

The Caledonian Isles is set to return to service later.

CalMac Arran ferry to return to service after 20 months of repairs

MV Caledonian Isles, which serves the Arran route, has been sidelined for repairs costing more than £12m.

www.bbc.co.uk

A CalMac ferry serving Arran that has been out of action for 20 months for a series of repairs costing more than £12m is to return to service.

MV Caledonian Isles has been sidelined since early last year when annual maintenance revealed extensive corrosion problems.

The ferry, one of the main vessels serving the Arran route, will resume sailing from Ardrossan at 17:00. The return journey from Brodick is scheduled for 18:25.

The ship's long absence has caused major difficulties for the North Ayrshire port, as the other main ferry which serves the Arran route, MV Glen Sannox, is too big to berth safely at Ardrossan harbour.The ship's problems began in January 2024 when annual maintenance inspections revealed serious corrosion that required the removal of the engines to fix.

Work on the 32-year-old ferry - known as "Caley Isles" - was initially expected to last several months at the Cammell Laird shipyard in Merseyside and cost about £5m.

The ship returned to Scotland towards the end of the year but before it could resume service the crew detected metal fragments in a gearbox.

Subsequent investigation revealed the propeller shaft was misaligned and the entire rear of the vessel was twisted. Such problems can develop when a ship is out of the water for an extended period.

The ship then spent most of this year in dry dock in Greenock to rectify the problems but another fault with its propellers was detected before it could return to service.

Engineers believe they have finally fixed that problem, which affected its ability to manoeuvre in harbour, but the total repair bill now exceeds £12m, the equivalent of about a quarter of CalMac's entire maintenance spend for last year.

BBC Scotland News revealed in July that CalMac is seeking to reclaim some of those costs from Cammell Laird.


The return of MV Caledonian Isles has been welcomed in Ardrossan, which has suffered economic damage from the lack of a regular ferry service.

The new ferry for the Arran route, MV Glen Sannox, is too large to berth safely at the port in windy conditions and has to sail instead from Troon, about 15 miles further south.

The shorter crossing between Ardossan and Brodick means Caledonian Isles will be able to provide five return crossings to Arran each day, compared to three sailings from Troon.

The Scottish government, through its ferries and ports agency CMAL, is currently negotiating with the owner of Ardrossan Harbour, Peel Ports, to buy the site.

This follows years of stalemate over plans to redevelop the port so that the new larger ferries Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa can berth safely.

The Ardrossan Harbour Project was given the go-ahead in 2018 by then-Transport Minister Humza Yousaf, who promised the North Ayrshire town would remain the main gateway to Arran.

However, costs rose and disagreements between the government, North Ayrshire Council and Peel Ports over how much each should pay left the project in limbo.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

If you just look at the CMAL fleet, both Hjaltland and Hrossay are capable of 24 knots.

These require the 24 knot capability for when the overnight service runs via Kirkwall which means they only extend the overall journey time between Lerwick and Aberdeen by two hours for the longer route plus time in port in Kirkwall, but it is very fuel hingry, I understand fuel consumption at 24kt on these is double that at 16kt.

 

[BayPaul]

Finally some good news for Calmac...

Caledonian Isles is back in service

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you just look at the CMAL fleet, both Hjaltland and Hrossay are capable of 24 knots. Hamnavoe is capable of 19 knots for a similar length of journey.

So it seems to be a conscious choice to design the Glens for operation at a much lower speed than some of the other large ships...
Interesting!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

So it seems to be a conscious choice to design the Glens for operation at a much lower speed than some of the other large ships...
Interesting!

Perhaps driven by fuel consumption at higher speeds - see post 259.

 

[BayPaul]

So it seems to be a conscious choice to design the Glens for operation at a much lower speed than some of the other large ships...
Interesting!

You couldn't get a Glen class or anything like it to go at 24kts. She's far too short and fat. None of Calmacs ships are able to go over about 18 knots.
In railway terms, you are talking about trying to build a 125mph pacer.

 

[Morayshire]

Movement on Ardrossan

Price agreed for Ardrossan harbour purchase

Scotland's ferries and harbours agency says a price has been agreed in principle for the purchase of Ardrossan harbour from its private owner.
CMAL told campaigners that a "heads of terms" agreement had been reached with Peel Ports, and it hoped to bring it into public ownership by the end of the year.
The government has been forced to buy the harbour because new CalMac ferries ordered by CMAL for the Arran route are too big to berth safely at the existing facilities, and talks on how to split redevelopment costs have stalled.
The proposed purchase price has not been disclosed, but Peel Ports has told MSPs a further £170m will then need to be spent upgrading the port for the larger ships.

The agreement, although not legally binding at this stage, has been welcomed by campaigners both on Arran and in the mainland town of Ardrossan which was left without a ferry service for much of the year after Glen Sannox entered service.
The new ship is 102.4m (335.9ft) long, while the main Arran Berth at Ardrossan is only 97m (318ft) long, and computer simulations have suggested it would struggle to berth in high winds.
Since entering service in January, Glen Sannox has instead been forced to sail from Troon, about 15 miles further south.
The Save Ardrossan Harbour campaign has complained that the town has suffered economic damage due to a lack of footfall and fewer islanders travelling to use businesses such as dentists or garages.
CMAL, which is leading negotiations, sent an update to a public meeting held in the town on Wednesday evening which revealed "significant progress" had been made in talks with Peel Ports about taking the harbour into public ownership.
Chief executive Kevin Hobbs said: "Heads of terms have been exchanged and are being refined and both parties have appointed lawyers with a target of concluding negotiations over the purchase - the aim being a conclusion before the end of 2025.



Ardrossan offers the fastest and most direct route from the mainland to Arran, although the harbour's shallow depth and layout makes it tricky to navigate in high winds.
The improvements involve dredging to make it deeper and re-aligning the main Arran berth, making it easier for large ferries to make the sharp turn required upon passing the breakwaters.
Regular services between Ardrossan and Arran resumed earlier this month when MV Caledonian Isles, which is 8m (26ft) shorter than Glen Sannox, returned to service after 20 months of repairs.
While news of the preliminary agreement was welcomed by the campaign, the public meeting heard that Ardrossan could lose its ferry service entirely for between two and three years while redevelopment work is carried out.
Uncertainty also remains over what will happen when the identical sister ship to Glen Sannox - MV Glen Rosa - enters service next summer as MV Caledonian Isles is then expected to be redeployed elsewhere on the CalMac network.

 

[jgf]

Movement on Ardrossan

Price agreed for Ardrossan harbour purchase

Forgive me if I have missed something obvious in the long saga of Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa's procurement, but why did Calmac/CMAL commission two vessels that are too large for the berth at Ardrossan?

 

[BayPaul]

Forgive me if I have missed something obvious in the long saga of Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa's procurement, but why did Calmac/CMAL commission two vessels that are too large for the berth at Ardrossan?

There is a second berth in Ardrossan that they do fit, but it is currently out of service.

But yes, general incompetence is also a good answer. Three smaller ferries would have been so much better in every way.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Perhaps driven by fuel consumption at higher speeds - see post 259.

Probably

You couldn't get a Glen class or anything like it to go at 24kts. She's far too short and fat. None of Calmacs ships are able to go over about 18 knots.
In railway terms, you are talking about trying to build a 125mph pacer.

Or maybe a 125mph S Stock would be more appropriate, given the cost of the Glen class ships!

Movement on Ardrossan

Price agreed for Ardrossan harbour purchase

Great news. I still hope that Peel get some long-term consequences from this whole saga.

Redevelopment of a port that was badly damaged and in desperate need of an update, regardless of the issues with the Glen class, was the obvious choice to secure a profitable future for all of Ardrossan's potential users. Peel aren't exactly short of cash either.

Forgive me if I have missed something obvious in the long saga of Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa's procurement, but why did Calmac/CMAL commission two vessels that are too large for the berth at Ardrossan?

I think the plan was to try and increase capacity on the Arran route by increasing vessel size, perhaps the operational cost of 3 ships would have made it completely unviable.

 

[Southsider]

Probably

Or maybe a 125mph S Stock would be more appropriate, given the cost of the Glen class ships!

Great news. I still hope that Peel get some long-term consequences from this whole saga.

Redevelopment of a port that was badly damaged and in desperate need of an update, regardless of the issues with the Glen class, was the obvious choice to secure a profitable future for all of Ardrossan's potential users. Peel aren't exactly short of cash either.

I think the plan was to try and increase capacity on the Arran route by increasing vessel size, perhaps the operational cost of 3 ships would have made it completely unviable.

Bear in mind that Glen Rosa was originally destined for the Uig triangle.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bear in mind that Glen Rosa was originally destined for the Uig triangle.

Ah I didn't know that, fair enough.

 

[ABB125]

Bear in mind that Glen Rosa was originally destined for the Uig triangle.

Why was that subsequently changed?