New-style Paper Tickets

[bleeder4]

Having just spent £205.70 on an Off Peak Return between Worcester and Linlithgow, I was somewhat perturbed for the machine to print out two of these new style flimsy paper tickets. Considering the amount of money they cost me, they're really flimsy little things. Bring back the old style credit card style tickets any day, at least they were more solid and durable.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's a mixed bag. Depends on the retailer. For instance, I recently switched from paper day Travelcards to GWR Smartcard, but then I bought a load of LNER vouchers for the Amex cashback.

I also have an LNER Smartcard, but LNER choose not to fulfill day tickets to Smartcard even when the fare setter has enabled them for Smartcard fulfillment. So I have to get a CCST each time if I want to use my prepaid vouchers. I find it quite amusing, under those circumstances, to then be lectured by TOCs via their publicity about what a scourge on the environment CCSTs are.

There's actually quite a bit of work needs doing before CCSTs could sensibly be withdrawn. For cross-London tickets and U Zone tickets, e-tickets will probably be the main alternative (but the solution never seems to come), but I'm not sure if that's feasible for day Travelcards? If not, you'd need them to be available on all TOC Smartcards as well as Oyster, I should have thought. Currently that is not the case.

LNER stations will happily load a ticket to a Smartcard if available(except ScotRail flows) but the web doesn't have that function.

 

[redreni]

LNER stations will happily load a ticket to a Smartcard if available(except ScotRail flows) but the web doesn't have that function.

Thanks for clarifying.

Useful to know, but of course if I want to spend my vouchers I can only do that online, so it's ToD and CCST only.

 

[kkong]

LNER stations will happily load a ticket to a Smartcard if available(except ScotRail flows) but the web doesn't have that function.

The ScotRail app can load tickets onto ScotRail smartcards, so adding the same functionality to the LNER app ought to be possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ScotRail app can load tickets onto ScotRail smartcards, so adding the same functionality to the LNER app ought to be possible.

Would fail cost-benefit analysis, though. Almost no smartphone owner is going to want to faff about loading tickets onto a smartcard, they will just present them as an e-ticket on the phone. It isn't going to encourage more travel, so it would purely be a cost.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The ScotRail app can load tickets onto ScotRail smartcards, so adding the same functionality to the LNER app ought to be possible.

It's not a question of functionality, I can't really say any more

 

[kkong]

Would fail cost-benefit analysis, though. Almost no smartphone owner is going to want to faff about loading tickets onto a smartcard, they will just present them as an e-ticket on the phone. It isn't going to encourage more travel, so it would purely be a cost.

Then you have to wonder why TOC apps with this function exists, never mind the National Rail Smartcard Manager app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then you have to wonder why TOC apps with this function exists, never mind the National Rail Smartcard Manager app.

I believe the purpose for it would primarily have been seasons and flexi-seasons. However S-tickets allow these to be presented directly on a phone now, rubbish though that format is.

 

[kkong]

One use case of the ScotRail smartcard for me is when buying Club 50 discounted tickets.

Club 50 requires a smartcard to prove entitlement, so loading the ticket onto the same smartcard means only one item requires inspection on board the train.

 

[redreni]

I believe the purpose for it would primarily have been seasons and flexi-seasons. However S-tickets allow these to be presented directly on a phone now, rubbish though that format is.

What about Travelcard seasons?

The trouble with there being so many ticket formats is nobody thinks it's important to make every ticket fulfillable to any format. So you get nonsense like when I went to Yeovil recently. I wanted to wait and see if the train was running on time before buying a PlusBus ticket (it made sense to buy a PlusBus, but only if I could use it to get from the station to my hotel, so if I missed that bus connection I would have just used taxis instead for all three trips I needed to make). Once we were 15 minutes away from Yeovil Junction and running more or less on time the guard came past, so I asked him for a PlusBus ticket. I figured I needed to be quick to make the connection onto the bus so wanted to have the ticket before I arrived. He could only sell it to me for ToD collection, because apparently it can't be issued on paper roll stock!

Yeovil Junction has one ticket office window (which had a short queue when I arrived) and one TVM. Luckily I quickly found where they'd hidden the TVM (on the London-bound platform recessed into a wall) and there was nobody in front of me, so I just about managed to collect the ticket and make my connection, but it is mad that the guard can sell that ticket to you but can't print it out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about Travelcard seasons?

Those too. And day Travelcards theoretically, but I very much doubt most people would be even remotely bothered about receiving that as a CCST, I'd imagine 99%+ of those are fulfilled to CCST.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Then you have to wonder why TOC apps with this function exists, never mind the National Rail Smartcard Manager app.

It's worth noting that Android 14 and later (and possibly 13) won't allow you to install the NR Smartcard Manager app from the Play Store - though it works fine if already installed when you upgrade to 14+ - as it uses a very old version of the Android SDK.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The trouble with there being so many ticket formats is nobody thinks it's important to make every ticket fulfillable to any format.

Oh yes there is but why finish one project off when the next shiny project is calling.

 

[redreni]

It's worth noting that Android 14 and later (and possibly 13) won't allow you to install the NR Smartcard Manager app from the Play Store - though it works fine if already installed when you upgrade to 14+ - as it uses a very old version of the Android SDK.

That's annoying.

Those too. And day Travelcards theoretically, but I very much doubt most people would be even remotely bothered about receiving that as a CCST, I'd imagine 99%+ of those are fulfilled to CCST.

It'd be interesting to see.

If you live on a London bus route, as I do, Smartcard fulfillment has the distinct advantage that you can buy the ticket on the day from the comfort of your home, pop it on your Smartcard and use it on a bus. I know a chap who lives in Slough and does this, using an outboundary Travelcard on the 81 to Slough station.

It's an option I may use tomorrow - rather than buy my day Travelcard in advance, I'll wait as long as possible to see if the football is on or not, then if appropriate buy it just before leaving the house and jumping on a bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you live on a London bus route, as I do, Smartcard fulfillment has the distinct advantage that you can buy the ticket on the day from the comfort of your home, pop it on your Smartcard and use it on a bus. I know a chap who lives in Slough and does this, using an outboundary Travelcard on the 81 to Slough station.

Suspect the number of people doing that is very, very small, particularly as contactless is valid from Slough and it's one of the very, very few places you get TfL buses outside the Zones. Yes, Railcards, but most people seem to choose convenience over price with contactless.

 

[signed]

And day Travelcards theoretically, but I very much doubt most people would be even remotely bothered about receiving that as a CCST, I'd imagine 99%+ of those are fulfilled to CCST.

The fact that they aren't fullfilable to Oyster is so backwards

I would be very glad to be able to split the cheap PAYG with a Off-Peak TC from Gatwick without having to fuss at East Croydon

 

[yorksrob]

Oh yes there is but why finish one project off when the next shiny project is calling.

Simple solution.

Stick with CCST.

Forget the hi tec lot waiving their mobile phones at the barrier while nothing happens.

Those of us who require/prefer a physical ticket want something that's robust, easy to understand and that fits into our wallet.

None of these flimsy paper "alternatives" cut the mustard.

 

[xotGD]

It could equally be argued that short journeys like Meadowhall - Sheffield, Burley Park - Leeds, etc shouldn't have Advance tickets available in the first place.

Now that we have them, taking them away would mean us Northern passengers having to pay a load more for our journey. That wouldn't go down very well.

Of course, it can be done by stealth by incrementally increasing the lowest Advance fare until it catches up with the cost of a flexible ticket.

 

[redreni]

None of these flimsy paper "alternatives" cut the mustard.

Not cleanly, no.

On the other hand I'd quite confidently use a CCST to cut a variety of foodstuffs, including but not limited to banana, paté and many softer kinds of cheese.

 

[yorksrob]

Not cleanly, no.

On the other hand I'd quite confidently use a CCST to cut a variety of foodstuffs, including but not limited to banana, paté and many softer kinds of cheese.

Fortunately Colemans enable me not to have to try

 

[thedbdiboy]

Simple solution.

Stick with CCST.

Forget the hi tec lot waiving their mobile phones at the barrier while nothing happens.

Those of us who require/prefer a physical ticket want something that's robust, easy to understand and that fits into our wallet.

None of these flimsy paper "alternatives" cut the mustard.

The rail industry runs trains; it isn't a ticket printing industry, it has to procure its equipment from the ticket supply industry, and no-one uses anything than paper roll as standard technology anymore. Cinemas, concerts, buses, airlines - all primarily use e-tickets and if you want a 'receipt' it comes out on a slip of paper. CCST is an increasingly expensive bespoke process made using unrecyclable and un-environmentally friendly bits of cardboard.
It doesn't take a lot to work out that even if every CCST costs only a penny, not having to print the millions needed back when that was the only way to get your ticket saves a lot of money, and no, it's not rich fat cats benefiting, it means that the Government funding for the industry can be spent on something more worthwhile instead.

 

[yorksrob]

The rail industry runs trains; it isn't a ticket printing industry, it has to procure its equipment from the ticket supply industry, and no-one uses anything than paper roll as standard technology anymore. Cinemas, concerts, buses, airlines - all primarily use e-tickets and if you want a 'receipt' it comes out on a slip of paper. CCST is an increasingly expensive bespoke process made using unrecyclable and un-environmentally friendly bits of cardboard.
It doesn't take a lot to work out that even if every CCST costs only a penny, not having to print the millions needed back when that was the only way to get your ticket saves a lot of money, and no, it's not rich fat cats benefiting, it means that the Government funding for the industry can be spent on something more worthwhile instead.

I already said forget those who prefer e-type fumbles at the barrier.

This is all very redolent of the rail industry operating for its own convenience, rather than the passengers.

 

[redreni]

[...] it means that the Government funding for the industry can be spent on something more worthwhile instead.

And yet it isn't.

It's spent on stuff like this: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-economic-growth-and-ai-innovation-in-britain

I.e. processing all the extra data we leave in our wake, in ways that place extraordinary demands on the electricity and water grids. Modern ticketing is, of course, being adopted across the economy principally for that reason and not because executives at RDG and the TOCs lie awake at night worrying about used tickets going into landfill.

 

[HSTEd]

The existing CCST specification is rather past its sell by date, unfortunately.

I think one of those very low cost smartcard solutions (including the ones which have the electronics inside a paper card) would have been good, as it would have enabled the total elimination of everything except ITSO readers. Single use tickets would have had a paper card with the chip implanted and human readable information on the outside.

Increasingly large numbers of Android smartphones support ITSO over NFC these days, and I expect Apple could do the same if they wished.

But we have gone for the Aztec code solution, and now that we have done so it is difficult to go back.
The obvious problem with Aztec code based tickets is the difficulty in protecting against duplication - especially for multi trip tickets.

 

[signed]

The obvious problem with Aztec code based tickets is the difficulty in protecting against duplication - especially for multi trip tickets.

Aren't those encrypted? SNCF Aztec codes are

 

[HSTEd]

Aren't those encrypted? SNCF Aztec codes are

The data on the code is encrypted, but it can be reproduced faithfully and there are few practical ways to stop this.

If I had, for example, a season ticket, in the form of an Aztec code, I could make many copies of it.

 

[Adam Williams]

But we have gone for the Aztec code solution, and now that we have done so it is difficult to go back.
The obvious problem with Aztec code based tickets is the difficulty in protecting against duplication - especially for multi trip tickets.

The scan database is an excellent defence against fraudsters duplicating and sharing barcodes. It also means that misuse (implausible journeys for one person to be making) can be detected "offline", asynchronously and investigated for however long it takes.

It's not like the MIFARE cards haven't had their own fair share of security issues, either. A smartcard is not automatically bulletproof or impossible to duplicate simply by virtue of using NFC instead of a visual barcode.

 

[redreni]

The scan database is an excellent defence against fraudsters duplicating and sharing barcodes. It also means that misuse (implausible journeys for one person to be making) can be detected "offline", asynchronously and investigated for however long it takes.

It's not like the MIFARE cards haven't had their own fair share of security issues, either. A smartcard is not automatically bulletproof or impossible to duplicate simply by virtue of using NFC instead of a visual barcode.

One obvious use case that might not be implausible and thus difficult to detect would be two people jobsharing and sharing a season ticket. But then again, it's not obvious why jobsharing should be taxed, so...

 

[Discuss223]

It doesn't take a lot to work out that even if every CCST costs only a penny, not having to print the millions needed back when that was the only way to get your ticket saves a lot of money, and no, it's not rich fat cats benefiting, it means that the Government funding for the industry can be spent on something more worthwhile instead.

There are card transaction fees incurred with every purchase of an e-ticket. The railways have survived two recessions whilst still using the carded paper tickets.

 

[MrJeeves]

There are card transaction fees incurred with every purchase of an e-ticket.

What is your point?

Card transaction fees don't magically disappear when you buy a CCST instead of an E-Ticket.

If your argument is then that people use cash at ticket machines or offices, then I'd argue that the human cost of emptying such machines and depositing the cash is far greater than card transaction fees anyway making your argument moot.