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New-style Paper Tickets

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Warrior2852

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It's very annoying when I end up with one of the new tickets since they don't handily fit into the blue National Rail three-section ticket wallet I've been using to easily show inspectors my ticket and railcard at the same time for years, I instead have to fold it up, stuff it in, then take the whole thing out when an inspector arrives instead of just opening the wallet and everything being visible.
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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It's very annoying when I end up with one of the new tickets since they don't handily fit into the blue National Rail three-section ticket wallet I've been using to easily show inspectors my ticket and railcard at the same time for years, I instead have to fold it up, stuff it in, then take the whole thing out when an inspector arrives instead of just opening the wallet and everything being visible.
Why do you need to do all that?

Just fold the paper ticket so that the barcode is always visible - the rest of it doesn't really matter anymore. You can fold it in such a way that the barcode is visible in the plastic wallet, and you'd not even need to take it out.

Things like those plastic National Rail wallets are awful for the environment.
 

Mainline421

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So you’re stating that all services should be unreserved, no matter the journey?
That would be a significant improvement over the current situation yes, many TOCs have sensibly done exactly that in recent years. But I'd probably a offer seat selection option for £5 to cater for those who request it (refundable if cancelled), it shouldn't be the default though.
 

MrJeeves

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GTR themselves have a strange approach to e-ticketing, even when it doesn't involve TfL. There are plenty of examples like a return being available as an e-ticket, but a single as CCST only. Lots of journeys to smaller metro stations are CCST only from when these stations didn't have barcode readers. Advances involving ungated stations or stations not managed by GTR are also paper only.
Honestly, I don't think it's intentional. They don't seem to care enough to maintain the data properly.
 

Russel

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That would be a significant improvement over the current situation yes, many TOCs have sensibly done exactly that in recent years. But I'd probably a offer seat selection option for £5 to cater for those who request it (refundable if cancelled), it shouldn't be the default though.

Agree with this, it would also reduce the number of reserved but unoccupied seats that people are hesitant to use.
 

signed

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This technology has been around for years, longer than e-tickets and I don't think it would be much of a challenge for the Railway to implement it on a larger scale than just around London.
It does already exist, smartcards, and that's without the inconvenience of PAYG

Just force people to load tickets to smartcard, and print a slip with the travel information.

That smartcard could easily accomodate a full Railcard data, extinguishing Railcard fraud overnight, it's harder to loose a plastic card than a paper ticket. If the initiative is big enough you could strike a deal with Samsung/Google/Apple for their wallet app to act as a full replacement of the plastic card. If you want to piggyback PAYG then go for it.
 

J-2739

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Cheap and nastiness is the essence of these new style tickets. Like a supermarket receipt that is thrown away before you even leave the store.
 

Transilien

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It does already exist, smartcards, and that's without the inconvenience of PAYG

Just force people to load tickets to smartcard, and print a slip with the travel information.

That smartcard could easily accomodate a full Railcard data, extinguishing Railcard fraud overnight, it's harder to loose a plastic card than a paper ticket. If the initiative is big enough you could strike a deal with Samsung/Google/Apple for their wallet app to act as a full replacement of the plastic card. If you want to piggyback PAYG then go for it.
The user could have the choice of pay as you go or a smart card pre loaded ticket on all routes.
 

occone

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Cheap and nastiness is the essence of these new style tickets. Like a supermarket receipt that is thrown away before you even leave the store.
I think you highlight a good point here.

The ticket, as one of the very first interactions a customer will have with the railway, sets expectations of what the product will be and how customers should see the product.

A printed card is something you'll keep on you. A thin receipt can easily go in the bin.
 

Sonic1234

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The ticket, as one of the very first interactions a customer will have with the railway, sets expectations of what the product will be and how customers should see the product.
CCSTs are a recognised railway "brand": everyone recognises them as a train ticket.

Anyone who uses PlusBus has probably encountered bus drivers saying "Nah mate, that's a train ticket"
 

Sonic1234

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While there are no advances, there are plenty of reasons albeit some are quite niche, to use a paper ticket within the London Zones.

Group discounts and break of journey being the main ones.
 

renegademaster

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I beg to differ...
For those size tickets, could you not do the full Aztec code , printed on the back, and the ticket details printed on the front. I guess the machines can only print easily on one side though, but would be more versatile than the receipt style ones, and could be fed into a scanning machine for quick processing, eliminating TfLs opposition
 

CyrusWuff

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Not where you can get Advances for suburban journeys at a significant discount.
It could equally be argued that short journeys like Meadowhall - Sheffield, Burley Park - Leeds, etc shouldn't have Advance tickets available in the first place.
 

stadler

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I beg to differ...
Out of interest where are those barcode CCST tickets issued? I regularly buy CCST tickets from ticket offices and ticket machines and onboard trains and i have never come across one. I have seen photos online but i have never found one in person. Is it just a trial at a couple of stations?
 

mikeg

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I'm not against this providing the print is sufficiently sturdy and they remain printed on some form of common ticket stock to provide a manual way to ascertain authenticity*, Belgian tickets look similar although there is some patterning on the front and the Aztec code appears to be done differently, but it's the same idea, I have taken semi-reasonable care of some and the ones I have had since summer still scan and read just fine.

Edit: Having said that, would some orange banding cost much if anything more at all to do? It is a key part of the branding that says 'This is a rail ticket, issued by the railway', after all.

*Why does there need to be a manual way to ascertain authenticity? In case a TOC hasn't kept its decryption keys up to date, something that has happened to me on more than one occasion and only 'let off' on the first instance because I was able to show the ticket in an official app. Before that, I was nearly accused of using a fake ticket (I'd originally shown the .pdf). I'd hate for the paper to be completely plain, I suspect if it were we'd get a lot of disputes and prosecutions cases arising out of just such situations.
 

redreni

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E-tickets (apart for inter-city journeys) seem like a really unnecessary technology when contactless could work a lot better for regular turn-up and go journeys and be more simple compared to paper or e-tickets. This technology has been around for years, longer than e-tickets and I don't think it would be much of a challenge for the Railway to implement it on a larger scale than just around London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also, barcodes are harder to scan than the simplicity of just tapping a card on a reader.
If I buy an e-ticket for a short journey in and around London, I get my Network Railcard discount. If I use PAYG, I don't.

The other thing about PAYG is it adds a layer of complexity to everything. The fares, rules on break of journey and routing, doubling back etc are totally different for PAYG versus tickets.

I think tickets in whatever format are here to stay. At least, I hope they are. Splitting fares is a lot harder with PAYG than with tickets...
 

Transilien

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If I buy an e-ticket for a short journey in and around London, I get my Network Railcard discount. If I use PAYG, I don't.

The other thing about PAYG is it adds a layer of complexity to everything. The fares, rules on break of journey and routing, doubling back etc are totally different for PAYG versus tickets.

I think tickets in whatever format are here to stay. At least, I hope they are. Splitting fares is a lot harder with PAYG than with tickets...
Most of the things that you say are problems with PAYG could be solved such as split ticketing which in my opinion shouldn’t exist in the first place. Ticketing should probably be reformed before the PAYG system would be implemented.

Railcards could be easily added to PAYG if they just make railcards compatible with it. For example if you had a digital railcard on your phone you could use that to tap on a reader and you would pay the discounted price.

Just because I think PAYG would be better than E-Tickets in many cases doesn’t mean I think it is perfect in its current state. Improvements need to be made to the system before it would be rolled out nationally.
 

redreni

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Most of the things that you say are problems with PAYG could be solved such as split ticketing which in my opinion shouldn’t exist in the first place. Ticketing should probably be reformed before the PAYG system would be implemented.

Railcards could be easily added to PAYG if they just make railcards compatible with it. For example if you had a digital railcard on your phone you could use that to tap on a reader and you would pay the discounted price.

Just because I think PAYG would be better than E-Tickets in many cases doesn’t mean I think it is perfect in its current state. Improvements need to be made to the system before it would be rolled out nationally.
Tickets allow things like Groupsave, Kids for a Quid, Two Together Railcards etc to exist.

Even my Network Railcard gives discounts not only for me but for people travelling with me.

PAYG is incapable, in principle, of offering these sorts of discounts. And unless it covers the whole country, people are always going to want tickets from stations inside the area of PAYG coverage to stations outside.

It just isn't capable of replacing tickets completely.
 

Transilien

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Tickets allow things like Groupsave, Kids for a Quid, Two Together Railcards etc to exist.

Even my Network Railcard gives discounts not only for me but for people travelling with me.

PAYG is incapable, in principle, of offering these sorts of discounts. And unless it covers the whole country, people are always going to want tickets from stations inside the area of PAYG coverage to stations outside.

It just isn't capable of replacing tickets completely.
Yes, tickets could fill the gaps that PAYG can’t cover, but most people don’t travel in groups. For the vast majority of passengers, PAYG would work fine.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Out of interest where are those barcode CCST tickets issued? I regularly buy CCST tickets from ticket offices and ticket machines and onboard trains and i have never come across one. I have seen photos online but i have never found one in person. Is it just a trial at a couple of stations?
Euston - if you specifically ask them, at the start of the transaction, to issue them on CCST rather than the bog roll format, they will.
 

Sonic1234

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Yes, tickets could fill the gaps that PAYG can’t cover, but most people don’t travel in groups. For the vast majority of passengers, PAYG would work fine.
As it does in London. The issues noted on this forum about using paper tickets at TfL gatelines is probably due to incompetence, but also due to inexperience - they rarely see tickets and the few they do are Travelcards.

People (worryingly so in my opinion) seem to be happy to forego a cheaper paper fare to use PAYG - very few people think about Groupsave, group or Network railcards or break of journey within London and in the contactless area beyond the London Zones on Thameslink everyone taps a card even at the weekend, when paper fares are cheaper.
 

simonmpoulton

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Definitely think the future should be a smart card which you can load your tickets onto - like what Merseyrail have with the Metro Card.
 

island

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I don't like E-tickets. I like the real thing.
E-tickets are real tickets.
ATBs (airline ticket blanks)
ATB stands for Amalgamated Ticket and Boarding-pass. In airline use, the same stock could be used for either.
After a few days use the ticket began to stick to the clear plastic of the wallet and some of the ink came off of the ticket onto the plastic.
There is no "ink" on paper roll tickets; they are thermally printed.
 

renegademaster

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Tickets allow things like Groupsave, Kids for a Quid, Two Together Railcards etc to exist.

Even my Network Railcard gives discounts not only for me but for people travelling with me.

PAYG is incapable, in principle, of offering these sorts of discounts. And unless it covers the whole country, people are always going to want tickets from stations inside the area of PAYG coverage to stations outside.

It just isn't capable of replacing tickets completely.
You can load all of them edge cases , and advances on to smart cards though
 

ChrisC

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There is no "ink" on paper roll tickets; they are thermally printed.
Whether there is ink or not does not alter the fact that part of the print from this ticket came off and stuck to the clear plastic of the ticket wallet. This was around 8 years ago when the paper tickets were quite a new thing. Perhaps things have improved since then.
 

Watershed

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Most of the things that you say are problems with PAYG could be solved such as split ticketing which in my opinion shouldn’t exist in the first place. Ticketing should probably be reformed before the PAYG system would be implemented.

Railcards could be easily added to PAYG if they just make railcards compatible with it. For example if you had a digital railcard on your phone you could use that to tap on a reader and you would pay the discounted price.

Just because I think PAYG would be better than E-Tickets in many cases doesn’t mean I think it is perfect in its current state. Improvements need to be made to the system before it would be rolled out nationally.
Split ticketing is essentially impossible to eliminate unless you have a flat mileage-based system with no off-peak or other time-based discounts.

For example, even if you just had a simple rule that all off-peak tickets are valid from 09:30, this would mean it would often be worthwhile splitting at the first station stop that takes place after 09:30. That's often the case with XC at the moment, for example.
 

Bletchleyite

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Split ticketing is essentially impossible to eliminate unless you have a flat mileage-based system with no off-peak or other time-based discounts.

For example, even if you just had a simple rule that all off-peak tickets are valid from 09:30, this would mean it would often be worthwhile splitting at the first station stop that takes place after 09:30. That's often the case with XC at the moment, for example.

There are several types of splitting. Some types aren't avoidable. But one of the biggest ones is split Advances which works due to the available quota levels at different points along the journey. This was going to be fixed by changing how Advances are calculated, but it never happened. This one would be the easiest to solve.
 

yorkie

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Most of the things that you say are problems with PAYG could be solved such as split ticketing which in my opinion shouldn’t exist in the first place.
Feel free to post any proposal you have to eliminae it, in the Speculative Discussion forum section. Feel free to link to the thread from here.

So far, no-one has yet found a foolproof method to do this, but maybe you can be the first!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are several types of splitting. Some types aren't avoidable. But one of the biggest ones is split Advances which works due to the available quota levels at different points along the journey. This was going to be fixed by changing how Advances are calculated, but it never happened. This one would be the easiest to solve.
Feel free to post your proposals for how to solve it in a new thread, if it's that easy! ;)
 

redreni

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You can load all of them edge cases , and advances on to smart cards though
It's a mixed bag. Depends on the retailer. For instance, I recently switched from paper day Travelcards to GWR Smartcard, but then I bought a load of LNER vouchers for the Amex cashback.

I also have an LNER Smartcard, but LNER choose not to fulfill day tickets to Smartcard even when the fare setter has enabled them for Smartcard fulfillment. So I have to get a CCST each time if I want to use my prepaid vouchers. I find it quite amusing, under those circumstances, to then be lectured by TOCs via their publicity about what a scourge on the environment CCSTs are.

There's actually quite a bit of work needs doing before CCSTs could sensibly be withdrawn. For cross-London tickets and U Zone tickets, e-tickets will probably be the main alternative (but the solution never seems to come), but I'm not sure if that's feasible for day Travelcards? If not, you'd need them to be available on all TOC Smartcards as well as Oyster, I should have thought. Currently that is not the case.
 
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