Opinions on Brexit

[Doppelganger]

I’d take that with a pinch of salt to be honest. Personally I think it’s IMF wishful thinking!

Yeah, who trusts experts anyway?

 

[DustyBin]

Yeah, who trusts experts anyway?

Very good.... Pick your experts carefully though!

 

[Annetts key]

I’d take that with a pinch of salt to be honest. Personally I think it’s IMF wishful thinking!

Whatever the projections, our current growth rate is absolutely abysmal…

 

[bspahh]

At the moment the poll has these scores:
I voted Leave and stand by that decision Votes: 23 13.5% I voted Remain and stand by that decision Votes: 123 72.4% I voted Leave but have changed my mind Votes: 6 3.5% I voted Remain but have changed my mind Votes: 7 4.1% I hold no strong opinion either way. Votes: 4 2.4% I believe Brexit could have been beneficial but has been mishandled. Votes: 33 19.4%

Which adds up to 115.3%

 

[DustyBin]

Whatever the projections, our current growth rate is absolutely abysmal…

Agreed; it's the suggestion everything is rosy elsewhere that I'm questioning.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At the moment the poll has these scores:
I voted Leave and stand by that decision Votes: 23 13.5% I voted Remain and stand by that decision Votes: 123 72.4% I voted Leave but have changed my mind Votes: 6 3.5% I voted Remain but have changed my mind Votes: 7 4.1% I hold no strong opinion either way. Votes: 4 2.4% I believe Brexit could have been beneficial but has been mishandled. Votes: 33 19.4%

Which adds up to 115.3%

That's because you can choose more than one option. I for example picked two options that both correctly describe my views: I voted Remain but have changed my mind, and I believe Brexit could have been beneficial but has been mishandled.

I suspect that last option I believe Brexit could have been beneficial but has been mishandled, would account for almost all the multiple votes, since all the other options would appear to be logically mutually exclusive.

 

[DustyBin]

At the moment the poll has these scores:
I voted Leave and stand by that decision Votes: 23 13.5% I voted Remain and stand by that decision Votes: 123 72.4% I voted Leave but have changed my mind Votes: 6 3.5% I voted Remain but have changed my mind Votes: 7 4.1% I hold no strong opinion either way. Votes: 4 2.4% I believe Brexit could have been beneficial but has been mishandled. Votes: 33 19.4%

Which adds up to 115.3%

You can vote for more than one option (the first and last being a common combination I suspect!).

 

[Doppelganger]

Agreed; it's the suggestion everything is rosy elsewhere that I'm questioning.

It isn't necessarily rosy, just not as bad. The UK economy is again sluggish at best and the UK has once again been dubbed the sick man of Europe.

 

[Essan]

I voted to leave the EU and would do so again. I also believe the terms of leaving the EU were handled in the most totally inept way possible, to the absolute detriment and near financial ruin of the country, by a bunch of selfish, money obsessed buffoons who collectively couldn't build a lego house even if the house comprised of 2 bricks placed on top of each other and wouldn't understand democracy even if they were taught the meaning of the word for 16 hours a day every day for 16,000 years.

(I was fully in favour of a very soft Brexit - which would have been a compromise that I think almost everyone in the country, apart from the aforementioned buffoons, would have found acceptable)

 

[Annetts key]

@Essan - it sounds like you are not very keen on another BoJo lead Conservative party

 

[Essan]

@Essan - it sounds like you are not very keen on another BoJo lead Conservative party

How'd you guess?

 

[jon0844]

I voted to leave the EU and would do so again. I also believe the terms of leaving the EU were handled in the most totally inept way possible, to the absolute detriment and near financial ruin of the country, by a bunch of selfish, money obsessed buffoons who collectively couldn't build a lego house even if the house comprised of 2 bricks placed on top of each other and wouldn't understand democracy even if they were taught the meaning of the word for 16 hours a day every day for 16,000 years.

(I was fully in favour of a very soft Brexit - which would have been a compromise that I think almost everyone in the country, apart from the aforementioned buffoons, would have found acceptable)

Why do you think Brexit was managed badly? For the disaster capitalists like JRM, a hard Brexit was totally necessary. If they thought they could just leave without an agreement, or paying any moneys owed, they probably would have done that too.

But I can accept that a lot of voters didn't want or expect that, as a lot of them did say during the campaigning that we would get a soft Brexit, with frictionless trade, less paperwork and so on. The EU was going to give us everything we wanted and more because they need us more than we need them.

It's why when it came to Brexit, once it was decided to leave, there needed to be another vote to decide the type of Brexit because every voter probably had a different idea of what it would be - the only common denominator likely being to stop immigration.

It would be like me asking my family if we should get a new car or keep our current one. We agree to get a new car, so I go and buy a 2 seater sportscar. My wife then points out how all three of us can't fit and it's useless for shopping or trips, and I say 'but you agreed on getting a new car'.

 

[Essan]

Why do you think Brexit was managed badly?

Is there anyone who doesn't think it was managed badly? Apart from the aforementioned buffoons, has anyone benefited from the form of Brexit we got?

To say it wasn't handled badly is like saying that blowing up a nuclear power station, causing an earthquake and destroying a city isn't a bad way to stop a runaway train, giving that these were all possible means of achieving the objective. Even if most people thought there were slightly better ways of doing it.

It's why when it came to Brexit, once it was decided to leave, there needed to be another vote to decide the type of Brexit because every voter probably had a different idea of what it would be - the only common denominator likely being to stop immigration.

The problem being it stopped the economic migration we absolutely need*: seasonal workers, those undertaking more mundane, lower paid jobs; and did absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop the illegal migration that capture the headline and which some don't want.


* albeit Covid was another factor there

 

[duncanp]

At the moment the poll has these scores:
I voted Leave and stand by that decision Votes: 23 13.5% I voted Remain and stand by that decision Votes: 123 72.4% I voted Leave but have changed my mind Votes: 6 3.5% I voted Remain but have changed my mind Votes: 7 4.1% I hold no strong opinion either way. Votes: 4 2.4% I believe Brexit could have been beneficial but has been mishandled. Votes: 33 19.4%

Which adds up to 115.3%

People can vote for more than one option.

I think the percentages refer to the number of people who have voted.

 

[jon0844]

Is there anyone who doesn't think it was managed badly? Apart from the aforementioned buffoons, has anyone benefited from the form of Brexit we got?

To say it wasn't handled badly is like saying that blowing up a nuclear power station, causing an earthquake and destroying a city isn't a bad way to stop a runaway train, giving that these were all possible means of achieving the objective. Even if most people thought there were slightly better ways of doing it.



The problem being it stopped the economic migration we absolutely need*: seasonal workers, those undertaking more mundane, lower paid jobs; and did absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop the illegal migration that capture the headline and which some don't want.


* albeit Covid was another factor there

I am not disagreeing with you!! I am just saying that some people have done very well from Brexit - just not those who were talked into voting for it.

Brexit was a scam. As such, it went pretty much according to plan.

 

[Doppelganger]

Brexit was a scam. As such, it went pretty much according to plan.

Exactly right.

It's like the Emperor's New Clothes, at some point enough will see Brexit for what it is and then they won't be able to unsee it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I voted to leave the EU and would do so again. I also believe the terms of leaving the EU were handled in the most totally inept way possible, to the absolute detriment and near financial ruin of the country, by a bunch of selfish, money obsessed buffoons who collectively couldn't build a lego house even if the house comprised of 2 bricks placed on top of each other and wouldn't understand democracy even if they were taught the meaning of the word for 16 hours a day every day for 16,000 years.

(I was fully in favour of a very soft Brexit - which would have been a compromise that I think almost everyone in the country, apart from the aforementioned buffoons, would have found acceptable)

I’m interested to know what sort of Brexit you expected. Given what was very clearly at stake both for U.K. Government and the EU, I can’t see how any other form of Brexit was possible.

The problem being it stopped the economic migration we absolutely need*: seasonal workers, those undertaking more mundane, lower paid jobs; and did absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop the illegal migration that capture the headline and which some don't want.

but illegal migration wasn’t an E.U. issue, by definition.

 

[ainsworth74]

I’m interested to know what sort of Brexit you expected. Given what was very clearly at stake both for U.K. Government and the EU, I can’t see how any other form of Brexit was possible.

I'm not sure that was true until May was boxed into giving her "red lines" speech. Those red lines meant we were always going to end up with something like we've gotten. Before then I feel like a softer Brexit would have been possible (though with different actors required on the Tory side!).

 

[Bantamzen]

Is there anyone who doesn't think it was managed badly? Apart from the aforementioned buffoons, has anyone benefited from the form of Brexit we got?

To say it wasn't handled badly is like saying that blowing up a nuclear power station, causing an earthquake and destroying a city isn't a bad way to stop a runaway train, giving that these were all possible means of achieving the objective. Even if most people thought there were slightly better ways of doing it.



The problem being it stopped the economic migration we absolutely need*: seasonal workers, those undertaking more mundane, lower paid jobs; and did absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop the illegal migration that capture the headline and which some don't want.


* albeit Covid was another factor there

Is it just possible that the e it strategy the country chose was always going to be a disaster, regardless of who or how it was managed. One of the weak points of the Leave argument was what was the strategy if things didn't play out to plan? And the simple answer there wasn't one, Brexit said the Leave plan cannot fail, all it can do is make our lives better. This weakness also exposed a strategic flaw in the Remain campaign in so much that they never really pushed this point home. In the end both sides let the country down by not allowing and engaging in a much more detailed, comprehensive debate.

 

[Doppelganger]

This weakness also exposed a strategic flaw in the Remain campaign in so much that they never really pushed this point home. In the end both sides let the country down by not allowing and engaging in a much more detailed, comprehensive debate.

I don't agree. The remain campaign made a lot of the consequences very clear, but Brexiteers dismissed it all as project fear.

Project fear has now become project reality and despite all the "I told you sos" now, many still have their head buried in the sand.

We hear a lot of nonsense like, "well, we've left now anyway", again just shutting down debate, or just simply pushing the blame of issues in to COVID or the war in Ukraine. I know there are a lot of factors at play affecting the global economy, but only the UK has Brexit and this has made things worse than other places, despite what some try to spin. It is very much a boiled frog syndrome in the UK, that you can't see the wood for the trees.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't agree. The remain campaign made a lot of the consequences very clear, but Brexiteers dismissed it all as project fear.

Project fear has now become project reality and despite all the "I told you sos" now, many still have their head buried in the sand.

We hear a lot of nonsense like, "well, we've left now anyway", again just shutting down debate, or just simply pushing the blame of issues in to COVID or the war in Ukraine. I know there are a lot of factors at play affecting the global economy, but only the UK has Brexit and this has made things worse than other places, despite what some try to spin. It is very much a boiled frog syndrome in the UK, that you can't see the wood for the trees.

Bang on sir!

 

[Essan]

I’m interested to know what sort of Brexit you expected. Given what was very clearly at stake both for U.K. Government and the EU, I can’t see how any other form of Brexit was possible.

One negotiated by our PM, David Cameron ...... (and ideally the soft version - which was, at the time, quite possible to achieve, and whilst maybe not what everyone wanted, also something most people wouldn't have objected too much to, and which would have had a minimal impact on people and businesses both in the UK and the rest of the EU)

I simply wanted to leave the political union (ie EU) - which was the only question on the ballot paper - which we had never been asked if we wanted to join and for which Major never had a mandate to sign up to (IMO). Nothing more. Basically a Norway option.

but illegal migration wasn’t an E.U. issue, by definition.

Exactly!

 

[Bald Rick]

One negotiated by our PM, David Cameron ...... (and ideally the soft version - which was, at the time, quite possible to achieve, and whilst maybe not what everyone wanted, also something most people wouldn't have objected too much to, and which would have had a minimal impact on people and businesses both in the UK and the rest of the EU)

I simply wanted to leave the political union (ie EU) - which was the only question on the ballot paper - which we had never been asked if we wanted to join and for which Major never had a mandate to sign up to (IMO). Nothing more. Basically a Norway option.

Whilst an option, that was never going to happen. It would have required continued Free movement of people with the E.U. (which was obviously an issue), continued following of European Court of Justice (same) and continuing to pay into the EU at least as much, and probably more, than we did previously. (Norway pays in more per capita than we did). It would also have required the explicit consent of Norway if we were to join EFTA, and that is by no means a certainty.

 

[eldomtom2]

I don't agree. The remain campaign made a lot of the consequences very clear, but Brexiteers dismissed it all as project fear.

What the Remain campaign did not do, however, was make a positive case for remaining in the EU.

 

[Essan]

Whilst an option, that was never going to happen. It would have required continued Free movement of people with the E.U. (which was obviously an issue), continued following of European Court of Justice (same) and continuing to pay into the EU at least as much, and probably more, than we did previously. (Norway pays in more per capita than we did). It would also have required the explicit consent of Norway if we were to join EFTA, and that is by no means a certainty.

Maybe. I never followed the debates at the time - I voted purely on a matter of principle and never actually expected the vote to go the way it did (and whether, given the narrow margin, we should have even proceeded to leave, or had a second vote once the terms of leaving had been agreed, is a moot point.) Stopping the free movement of people was not an issue for me - indeed, I'd be fully in favour of resuming it.

For what it's worth, I'm not aware leaving has really affected me (personally) much anyway. And there still seem to be plenty of Polish and other East Europeans living in my town. Though maybe not as many as we need.

 

[Doppelganger]

What the Remain campaign did not do, however, was make a positive case for remaining in the EU.

No? See below image.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2023 ==

there still seem to be plenty of Polish and other East Europeans living in my town. Though maybe not as many as we need.

My bold. What do you mean by this exactly?

 

[DustyBin]

I don't agree. The remain campaign made a lot of the consequences very clear, but Brexiteers dismissed it all as project fear.

Project fear has now become project reality and despite all the "I told you sos" now, many still have their head buried in the sand.

We hear a lot of nonsense like, "well, we've left now anyway", again just shutting down debate, or just simply pushing the blame of issues in to COVID or the war in Ukraine. I know there are a lot of factors at play affecting the global economy, but only the UK has Brexit and this has made things worse than other places, despite what some try to spin. It is very much a boiled frog syndrome in the UK, that you can't see the wood for the trees.

Brexit was a bump in the road in comparison to our catastrophic Covid response, and indeed the war in Ukraine. Remember the (effectively stillborn) Spring 2020 budget? Whilst the manner of Brexit was not in my opinion ideal, there was plenty to be positive about.

We’re never going to agree on this. You enjoy your “I told you so” moment, it won’t last!

 

[Doppelganger]

Whilst the manner of Brexit was not in my opinion ideal, there was plenty to be positive about.

Please tell us what to be positive about, as this has been asked so many times and nothing tangible has been presented.

 

[eldomtom2]

No? See below image.

Not the general thrust of the campaign, and I'm fairly sure a lot of those are covered by separate UK legislation anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Brexit was a bump in the road in comparison to our catastrophic Covid response,

with the benefit of hindsight (and a couple of years), our Covid response was little different to most other developed countries, right or wrong though it was. We locked down a little later than most, and a little more leniently, vaccinated a little earlier, and reopened a little earlier than most developed countries. In broad comparison, given what happened, it’s much of a muchness. Similarly Ukraine has hit us broadly the same as other European countries, and perhaps we have had it easier as we do at least have some of our own gas.

on a baseline, then, that the impact of Covid and Ukraine on us is broadly the same as the rest of Europe, the fact that we are performing worse than the other main European economies must be due to something else. And that something else is Brexit.

I too would like to know what positives there are, as there were none identified beforehand, and I have seen none that have happened since. But I’m willing to learn.