Opinions on Brexit

[InkyScrolls]

Though not necessarily representative of the wider populous, I thought it would be interesting to see how the members of this forum feel regarding Brexit.

If you didn't vote at the time, pick what you would have done had you been able to/wanted to.

 

[Peterthegreat]

You've missed out those who didn't vote - ineligible at the time or couldn't be botheed/make it.

 

[InkyScrolls]

You've missed out those who didn't vote - ineligible at the time or couldn't be bothered/make it.

Thank you, I've edited my comment.

 

[Intercity110]

i believe that brexit was a good idea but gov mishandled it- i'm unsure on what to put.

 

[InkyScrolls]

i believe that brexit was a good idea but gov mishandled it- i'm unsure on what to put.

Try now.

 

[D6130]

I believe that it was a huge mistake - exacerbated by Johnson's decision to go for a hard Brexit - and it has been catastrophic for our economy, for the NHS and care sectors following the mass exodus of Eastern European staff and the resulting loss of freedom of travel is unforgiveable. To think that, from the end of this year, we'll have to pay for a visa to visit our nearest neighbouring countries!

 

[DC1989]

It was always going to be a ****show and so it has been. Complete waste of time over the last 7-8 years

 

[simonw]

i believe that brexit was a good idea but gov mishandled it- i'm unsure on what to put.

Genuine questions: in what way was it a good idea and how did the government mishandled it, given that we left ?

 

[Intercity110]

Genuine questions: in what way was it a good idea and how did the government mishandled it, given that we left ?

free from EU regs & the constant mishandled deals (theresa may)

 

[MikeWM]

I narrowly voted Remain, after being on the fence for a long time. I thought there were good and bad arguments on both sides (and unfortunately the campaign was, inevitably, largely composed of the bad arguments, on both sides).

In the end, I think what tipped the balance for me to vote Remain was the idea that being closer to our European neighbours may help moderate extremes proposed from our government (eg. on workers rights). I (rather mistakenly!) thought that European governments tended to be fairly sensible on the whole. The response to covid - where most European countries were significantly more draconian and abusive to their citizens than even we were in the UK - showed just how wrong I was about that. (In addition, the enthusiastic remainers/rejoiners/#FBPE crowd seemed to be the most vocal about supporting lockdowns, masks, compulsory vaccinations and vaccine passports, whereas most opposition to these things seemed to come from those on the leave side. I'm not entirely sure why that was the case, and clearly there were exceptions, but on the whole it was a fairly clear trend and did make me re-examine my opinions somewhat).

As such, I'm very much on the Leave side now. Clearly the government have done a terrible job of grasping the possibilities of having left - a trivial example being why on earth they haven't removed VAT on domestic fuel bills - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick with it or that it wasn't the right thing to do.

I do find it somewhat amusing to see many of those on the Remain side now blaming Brexit for absolutely everything that is currently wrong in our country, even things that clearly have nothing whatever to do with it. It is a mirror of the previous situation where many on the Leave side blamed being in the EU for absolutely everything that was going wrong, however silly that was. I find both to be fairly extreme and also rather silly positions.

 

[jfollows]

Although I believe that the self-inflicted economic damage from leaving the EU will be significant because of tariffs and import/export controls which will be significantly costly, and I believe that it was motivated by a power grab from Whitehall to give UK ministers power which formerly resided in Brussels where it was more competently used, my primary selfish motivation for wanting to remain in the EU was because I wanted to retain the right to travel and live anywhere in the EU, which has now been taken from me. The reality of travelling on holiday will probably be little different, longer queues and more expensive paperwork perhaps, but that's not my point - I had something taken from me that I didn't want to lose and that I valued.
And my opinion has changed not one jot since then, other than noting that Theresa May's approach would have beem more acceptable to me than what we have to put up with now.

 

[DarloRich]

free from EU regs

without wishing to be that guy could you provide an example of the regs you feel we have been freed from?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I believe that it was a huge mistake - exacerbated by Johnson's decision to go for a hard Brexit - and it has been catastrophic for our economy, for the NHS and care sectors following the mass exodus of Eastern European staff and the resulting loss of freedom of travel is unforgiveable. To think that, from the end of this year, we'll have to pay for a visa to visit our nearest neighbouring countries!

It was always going to be a ****show and so it has been. Complete waste of time over the last 7-8 years

I’ve absolutely no need to make any comment as you both sum up my feelings perfectly.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I was instinctively very much against leaving, for political reasons.

But it seems to have reduced economic growth, that means less use of resources. Very good! We just need a government that arranges redistribution of wealth, and GNH, gross national happiness, could go up and up.

 

[RT4038]

I narrowly voted Remain, after being on the fence for a long time. I thought there were good and bad arguments on both sides (and unfortunately the campaign was, inevitably, largely composed of the bad arguments, on both sides).

In the end, I think what tipped the balance for me to vote Remain was the idea that being closer to our European neighbours may help moderate extremes proposed from our government (eg. on workers rights). I (rather mistakenly!) thought that European governments tended to be fairly sensible on the whole. The response to covid - where most European countries were significantly more draconian and abusive to their citizens than even we were in the UK - showed just how wrong I was about that. (In addition, the enthusiastic remainers/rejoiners/#FBPE crowd seemed to be the most vocal about supporting lockdowns, masks, compulsory vaccinations and vaccine passports, whereas most opposition to these things seemed to come from those on the leave side. I'm not entirely sure why that was the case, and clearly there were exceptions, but on the whole it was a fairly clear trend and did make me re-examine my opinions somewhat).

As such, I'm very much on the Leave side now. Clearly the government have done a terrible job of grasping the possibilities of having left - a trivial example being why on earth they haven't removed VAT on domestic fuel bills - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick with it or that it wasn't the right thing to do.

I do find it somewhat amusing to see many of those on the Remain side now blaming Brexit for absolutely everything that is currently wrong in our country, even things that clearly have nothing whatever to do with it. It is a mirror of the previous situation where many on the Leave side blamed being in the EU for absolutely everything that was going wrong, however silly that was. I find both to be fairly extreme and also rather silly positions.

I also narrowly voted remain. For the first time in my life (and I have voted in lots of elections and referenda both here and overseas) polling day arrived without me being sure which way to vote. I also thought there were good and bad arguments on both sides, and that both sides had been rather economical with the truth. It was heart on sovereignty (leave) vs. brain on economy (remain) !

In the end, what tipped the balance was the knowledge that leave was going to be a bucket full of short to medium term woes, it would mean trouble for NI, 5-10 years of economic hardship during rebalancing and the loss of travel/residency rights [not that I was likely to exercise anything but short term tourism, but others might and it did act as a safety valve]. I didn't think anything of the EU being a moderating factor in UK politics (in fact I think the notion rather insulting, although I understand the viewpoint) and I have no affinity with, or desire to be, European.

I was a little surprised with the voting result (thinking it more likely 55--60% remain) although I did realise that there was quite a bit of sentiment welling up and would be close.
Having left, I do not think we should seek to rejoin unless there are some pretty fundamental changes to the EU. After the dust of leaving has settled (and that could be quite a long time) then we should be seeking the closest possible trading and travel arrangements, short of ceding control of our affairs. Lots of water to pass under the bridge before then though.

Leaving the EU was always, in my mind, going to have a negative short to medium term economic effect. The country has been through such things before and recovered - we are quite resourceful in that regard. But staying in the EU was probably 'boiling frogs' with our economy, our country, our way of life. However, I do understand and empathise with other viewpoints, even if I don't like or agree with them. There is no right or wrong with this.

 

[MikeWM]

In the end, what tipped the balance was the knowledge that leave was going to be a bucket full of short to medium term woes, it would mean trouble for NI, 5-10 years of economic hardship during rebalancing and the loss of travel/residency rights [not that I was likely to exercise anything but short term tourism, but others might and it did act as a safety valve].

I think that was probably another slight factor in my voting Remain - I had no confidence in the government of the day's ability to negotiate an exit in a sensible way, not least because it was blatantly obvious they hadn't begun to plan for what would happen if Leave actually won.

Plus I was trying to buy a house at the time and, somewhat selfishly, didn't want financial upheaval at that particular moment. (As it turned out, I had my mortgage appointment at the bank the morning after the vote, which was interesting timing given the result and the effect it had on bank shares...!)

I didn't think anything of the EU being a moderating factor in UK politics (in fact I think the notion rather insulting, although I understand the viewpoint) and I have no affinity with, or desire to be, European.

I think it is telling that the main opposition to the EU tends to come from the moderate to hard left and the moderate to hard right - the EU did act as somewhat of an obstacle to either of their approaches to the economy etc. Having said that I was at the time a Corbyn supporter (though I'd strongly argue he wasn't 'hard left' in the slightest) and was a bit concerned that he'd have difficulty with some of his nationalistion plans if we stayed in the EU. I do think I've had rather a switch on that anyway over the last few years - the status quo isn't working, we need to try something else, whether that is Corbynomics or Trussonomics or any other approach - though whether we're in the EU or not it appears that we're not going to be allowed to try such things.

 

[Noddy]

I voted very strongly remain. However, I also respect the democratic decision that was made that day, even though I still completely disagree with it. To that end my view is we (remainers) just need to move on (the amount of energy still expended is ridiculous) and encourage the government to make good trade deals with EU but no more. In 20-30 years time we can revisit but not any sooner, unless there is a clear mandate for rejoining such a number of years of polling show 60%+ in favour of joining.

EDIT: I should point out that none of the options in the poll are suitable for me…

 

[Annetts key]

In the end, I think what tipped the balance for me to vote Remain was the idea that being closer to our European neighbours may help moderate extremes proposed from our government (eg. on workers rights). I (rather mistakenly!) thought that European governments tended to be fairly sensible on the whole. The response to covid - where most European countries were significantly more draconian and abusive to their citizens than even we were in the UK - showed just how wrong I was about that. (In addition, the enthusiastic remainers/rejoiners/#FBPE crowd seemed to be the most vocal about supporting lockdowns, masks, compulsory vaccinations and vaccine passports, whereas most opposition to these things seemed to come from those on the leave side. I'm not entirely sure why that was the case, and clearly there were exceptions, but on the whole it was a fairly clear trend and did make me re-examine my opinions somewhat).

I voted to remain and still think we should have stayed in. I disagree that most European countries were significantly more draconian. Some were, but not most.
And myself, I was never convinced that face coverings without any specification that had to be complied with, would or were any good whatsoever. I have never been in favour of compulsory vaccinations or vaccine passports. And my friends and family tend to agree on these.

Clearly the government have done a terrible job of grasping the possibilities of having left - a trivial example being why on earth they haven't removed VAT on domestic fuel bills - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick with it or that it wasn't the right thing to do.

I’m not a bit surprised that the conservative government have ignored suggestions to remove or reduce the rate of VAT. They LOVE VAT.

I do find it somewhat amusing to see many of those on the Remain side now blaming Brexit for absolutely everything that is currently wrong in our country, even things that clearly have nothing whatever to do with it. It is a mirror of the previous situation where many on the Leave side blamed being in the EU for absolutely everything that was going wrong, however silly that was. I find both to be fairly extreme and also rather silly positions.

Again, you are generalising. Brexit is clearly not the source of all our problems in the U.K. But is definitely not helping.

 

[MikeWM]

I voted to remain and still think we should have stayed in. I disagree that most European countries were significantly more draconian. Some were, but not most.

Off the top of my head I could name and detail far more draconian policies than we had here in Ireland, France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Greece, and Lithuania. I don't think it would be too hard to get to 'most'.

And myself, I was never convinced that face coverings without any specification that had to be complied with, would or were any good whatsoever. I have never been in favour of compulsory vaccinations or vaccine passports. And my friends and family tend to agree on these.

Good, but my point is there was a trend (as I said, with exceptions). For example, people with #FBPE and EU flags in their Twitter profile almost always seemed to support all those things.

I’m not a bit surprised that the conservative government have ignored suggestions to remove or reduce the rate of VAT. They LOVE VAT.

Well, yes. It should be an easy win though if they want to demonstrate a concrete benefit of Brexit.

Again, you are generalising. Brexit is clearly not the source of all our problems in the U.K. But is definitely not helping.

I said 'many', which I stand by. Clearly most people hold a more nuanced view, but there are hard-liners on both sides who want to push an agenda, whether the facts support it or not.

 

[Annetts key]

Off the top of my head I could name and detail far more draconian policies than we had here in Ireland, France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Greece, and Lithuania. I don't think it would be too hard to get to 'most'.

But that then comes down to what you call draconian. Plenty of people think the U.K. was draconian…
But I don’t really want to discuss this further in this topic.

Good, but my point is there was a trend (as I said, with exceptions). For example, people with #FBPE and EU flags in their Twitter profile almost always seemed to support all those things.

I’m not sure ****ter is a good benchmark

 

[david1212]

Before the vote it was not clearly stated exactly the target of how post-Brexit Britain would be. Cameron & Co presumed the vote would be a resounding No so it didn't matter.
When it was Yes he did the honourable thing and walked.
After Gove dropped Johnson May was PM by default despite being a Remainer.
With Brexit not defined she and the team worked towards something as close to remain as possible. By the time this was found out and too many of her MP's voted against on the basis they would be slaughtered by their constituents the damage was done.
The eventual delayed date of Britain leaving the EU on 31 January 2020 as C*v*d was marching around the world just poured fuel on the flames.

 

[nw1]

I voted very strongly remain. However, I also respect the democratic decision that was made that day, even though I still completely disagree with it. To that end my view is we (remainers) just need to move on (the amount of energy still expended is ridiculous) and encourage the government to make good trade deals with EU but no more. In 20-30 years time we can revisit but not any sooner, unless there is a clear mandate for rejoining such a number of years of polling show 60%+ in favour of joining.

Of course, Brexit passed on a simple majority, so arguably Rejoin should pass on a simple majority.

If 60%+ was required in the last referendum, it would never have happened. And certainly not 60% in favour of Brexit over a number of years.

As for my own view, well that's fairly clear by trawling through old posts. I do have strong personal reasons for intensely disliking Hard Brexit, but I also philosophically believe in freedom - and I believe that Hard Brexit is anti-freedom, because it has taken away rights we have had since 1973. Think about it. In 1973 the HST was a thing of the future, there were new-fangled locos appearing on the WCML called "Class 87s", and the newest VEPs were not yet in service. CORs and BILs were only just withdrawn, at the start of '73 the Watercress Line was still carrying regular passenger services. Mainline steam was a recent memory. Slade were regularly scoring number ones. It's a long time ago!

I will say that I would have completely tolerated a soft Brexit which kept in the customs union and EEA, and preserved freedom of movement, Norwegian style.

Hard Brexit is something utterly unforgivable as far as I'm concerned. And all motivated by the Tory Party being frightened of Farage and its own foaming-at-the-mouth element, it seems.

 

[simonw]

Before the vote it was not clearly stated exactly the target of how post-Brexit Britain would be. Cameron & Co presumed the vote would be a resounding No so it didn't matter.
When it was Yes he did the honourable thing and walked.
After Gove dropped Johnson May was PM by default despite being a Remainer.
With Brexit not defined she and the team worked towards something as close to remain as possible. By the time this was found out and too many of her MP's voted against on the basis they would be slaughtered by their constituents the damage was done.
The eventual delayed date of Britain leaving the EU on 31 January 2020 as C*v*d was marching around the world just poured fuel on the flames.

Well that's an interesting rewrite of history. In actual fact it was May that established the red lines (no freedom of omvement, no single market, no customs union etc etc ) that pathed the way to the hard brexit we got.

 

[telstarbox]

I was always going to vote Remain but Remainers (particularly David Cameron) were far too complacent in the campaign - it could have been won even if narrowly.

I also think the fact that the EU setup is so multi faceted (and even more so for the UK's bespoke arrangements) made it a difficult thing to put to a referendum, as there wasn't a clear definition of Leaving - hence why it took so long to negotiate our exit. It was asymmetric with the Government and civil service backing a clear status quo position, against but a loose coalition of "outsiders" backing Leave and it suited them to keep that vague.

 

[nw1]

Well that's an interesting rewrite of history. In actual fact it was May that established the red lines (no freedom of omvement, no single market, no customs union etc etc ) that pathed the way to the hard brexit we got.

And there was absolutely no moral need for Hard Brexit.

I can just about accept the "tiny majority for Brexit means Brexit has to happen" argument, but only on the condition that such a tiny majority should translate to the softest possible Brexit.

There was certainly no mandate for hard Brexit. If 13 people support something controversial for every 12 people that don't, you don't implement the controversial thing in the most strident possible way. You take into account the views of the 12, not just the 13, and implement something which keeps everyone happy.

Soft Brexit would "respect the referendum result" but would also respect the views of the 12, not just the 13. It would be a compromise. The lack of compromise is why people like myself are so annoyed, and will be until the situation changes. (And I think it will change, not to rejoin, but I do think things will soften in some way once this government is out. For example we might have closer economic ties, and slightly more freedom of movement, albeit not the full-on FoM we enjoyed in the 90s and 00s. Perhaps we will go back to the norms of the pre-EU 1973-92 period).

No, the motivation of Hard Brexit was that the Tory Party was frightened of Farage and its own right-wingers, and wanted to appeal to socially-conservative Labour seats in an attempt to win them. And the Tories have been successful in achieving those aims (to date) though I suspect this will be short lived and said seats will turn red again next year.

Finally, I think the Schengen visa-waiver scheme, and our own reciprocal scheme for EU citizens, will annoy a lot of people and turn more against Brexit. Not because of the small amount of money you have to pay, but because of the unwelcoming, US-style approach of it all. Remember it wad the Republican government of George W. Bush that started this recent trend towards visa-waiver schemes, scarcely a great role-model to follow. Even before 1973, we never had this amount of bureaucracy to travel to neighbouring countries (and neighbouring countries to us).

 

[telstarbox]

Well that's an interesting rewrite of history. In actual fact it was May that established the red lines (no freedom of omvement, no single market, no customs union etc etc ) that pathed the way to the hard brexit we got.

And by over cooking the red lines she ended up with a deal that pleased nobody and couldn't get it through.

 

[brad465]

I do think Liz Truss and her Tufton Street puppet masters hastened an increase in belief Brexit was going badly. It's been said many times that many supporters of Brexit wanted different forms/things out of it, but what mattered most is what those with power/influence wanted. The "think tanks" of Tufton Street wanted a "Singapore-on-Thames" model, which most ordinary Brexit supporters did not want; when Truss and Kwarteng tried to implement it and everything went haywire that vision very much got debunked and is unlikely to be ever considered for a generation again.

 

[nw1]

I was always going to vote Remain but Remainers (particularly David Cameron) were far too complacent in the campaign - it could have been won even if narrowly.

I also think the fact that the EU setup is so multi faceted (and even more so for the UK's bespoke arrangements) made it a difficult thing to put to a referendum, as there wasn't a clear definition of Leaving - hence why it took so long to negotiate our exit. It was asymmetric with the Government and civil service backing a clear status quo position, against but a loose coalition of "outsiders" backing Leave and it suited them to keep that vague.

The Leavers did tell some blatant lies, IIRC. For example, I seem to remember there was a claim that there would be no change in rights for EU citizens living here before 2016. If I did indeed remember that correctly, that was a bare-faced lie and enough, in my view, to void the entire referendum result.

And the fact that EU citizens were denied the vote shows how unfair, and biased, the referendum was. The people most affected by a Leave outcome were the people denied the vote.

 

[E27007]

We took a step in the direction of democracy.
In a true democracy, elected empowered and accountable MPs possess powers to introduce legislation before Parliament to "better our lot".
This cannot be said of the EU Parliament, the bureaucrats of the EU Commission dictate the legislation , not the MEPs, a Parliament where the elected representatives lack such powers cannot be a true democracy

 

[MikeWM]

But that then comes down to what you call draconian. Plenty of people think the U.K. was draconian…
But I don’t really want to discuss this further in this topic.

Agreed

I’m not sure ****ter is a good benchmark

True! - but a similar trend was reflected in the political parties, for example - there was a clear correlation between being keen on the EU, and being keen on covid restrictions and mandates. And the converse was mostly true too. I'm not at all sure why that turned out to be the case, but for whatever reason it was pretty obvious that the link was there.