West Coast Franchise

[Anvil1984]

Can we propose ordering a new set of Locos to haul Pendos in case of diversion / on services to Chester / Holyhead. (I know this isnt real but aren't the 57s getting on a bit or is that just me)

 

[Pumbaa]

Is there any evidence that states Lime Street can not accommodate an 11 car Pendolino, or are people making educated guesses?

I use the station many times a week and platforms 7 and 8 would be long enough, with the signals moved a few meters further back.

Above is a picture of a Pendolino in platform seven, with platform eight being the opposite face of the island. The cab is ever so slightly under the bridge (car park). Even if the train was right to the tip of the platform (and there are no passenger doors at the front anyway), it would not be fouling any pointwork

You've guessed it. An 11 car 390 fouls the permissible platform length of both 7 and 8, and is horribly over for 9. Signalling work will need to be carried out along with moving the down lines to P7 points back and an extra crossover from the Mossley Hill down lines to P6 will need to be installed, as the new signalling layout will foul that current crossover.

One document floating around said it would be easier to enable P9 for 11 cars. That would require no crossover work, just signal resighting and enabling the lower end of the platform to be fully used.

 

[lm321412]

Can we propose ordering a new set of Locos to haul Pendos in case of diversion / on services to Chester / Holyhead. (I know this isnt real but aren't the 57s getting on a bit or is that just me)

Waste of money.

They barely use the 57s as it is...

 

[Pumbaa]

It's amazing that people keep on talking about it so much when every official publication over the last few years has explained that there are much better things to do with the stock...

I know, and I will dispute NRs findings on this. They've got it horribly wrong before, they could have got it wrong this time also.

As a rough outline, they agree passenger loadings are deserving of a second train. The issue is platform space. Rebuilding lime street is too expensive, and thus does not justify the second train.

Also remember Liverpool has four other easy options that are afforded it, and people use all four. 1) local train to Warrington takes 25 mins, change there 2) local train to Chester or Manchester for MK and use that service 3) local train to Crewe and change 4) London Midland via everywhere.

 

[Anvil1984]

Waste of money.

They barely use the 57s as it is...

Because they have Voyagers for diversions / Holyheads, if we are hiving them away for Pendos between Manchester / Birmingham and Scotland we lose a diesel resource. (in this fantasy world)

 

[cslusarc]

Ok... My thoughts.

• Upgrade the Birmingham-Scotland service to Pendolino.
  
• Transfer the Manchester-Scotland services back to West Coast, using Voyager Stock released from the Pendolinofication.
  
• Extend the Manchester-Edinburgh* services to the home of Stagecoach (via Stirling).

*This could alternatively be done via Glasgow Queen Street using the Cowlairs Chord but might be confusing.

I agree with the above. But let's see an additional Pendolino order to cover the Manchester-Scotland services once the wires go up. This releases even more Voyagers in a few years time.

With all this added electrification in the Northwest, the new West Coast operator needs additional 125 mph InterCity trainsets. They could be British Rail Class 390s or British Rail Class 395s, I don't care. They should come in set of 5 cars (24.1m long) if they are Class 390s or sets of 6 cars (20.88m long) if they are 395s so that they can be paired and split. I see that the WCML could support fast electrified InterCity service between Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverly and Liverpool Lime Street / Manchester Airport / Birmingham New Street in addition to services from London Euston.

 

[cymro inside]

Holyhead to Euston via Birmingham was tried c 1984/85 to save money but the through journey time was too long compared with via Trent Valley.personally I would prefer a Holyhead to London service every 2 hours throughout the day as originally promised rather than the current flight of trains every hour each morning out of Holyhead and then virtually nothing for the rest of the day.

 

[Broken Viking]

What do people hope to see out of the next West Coast Franchise?

Personally?...

• The WCML Intercity fleet being completely replaced with Class 370 APTs, with the existing 221s/390s being cascaded over to East Coast, SWT (With TRE conversions) or FGW once the knitting is up as far as Plymouth.
• Travel times from Euston to Birmingham down to 15 minutes, to Manchester down to half an hour, to Glasgow down to an hour, and to Inverness down to 1h45...
• Clearance for 666mph running between Euston and Carlisle,
• My employment on the WCML both as an APT driver, and as the trainer for other drivers allocated to high-speed services!

My realistic prediction though would have to be for more fare increases and still no Bloody in-cab signalling upgrade...

 

[Zoe]

with the existing 221s/370s being cascaded over to East Coast

So you are going to take the 370 out of the Crewe Heritage Centre then?

 

[185]

All I seen when I clicked on this thread was "West Coast Franchise" and "Death".

I'm hoping the DfT can rearrange the words and whoever wins it ditches the awful management they inherit

 

[Failed Unit]

Because they have Voyagers for diversions / Holyheads, if we are hiving them away for Pendos between Manchester / Birmingham and Scotland we lose a diesel resource. (in this fantasy world)

But how much will we really need the Voyagers for diversions now, they seem an expensive luxary when you can drag the Pendo's just as well.

Look at the routes.
London - Birmingham (The Nuneaton diversion would need drag / diesel) it would be good to see a business case to get this wired, not sure if the freight demand would help.
London - Manchester (We are about to have another route via Newton-Le-Willows)
London - Liverpool (about to have another route via Newton-Le-Willows)
London - Preston (about to have another route via Preston)

North of Preston we will always need dragging to to have a fleet of DEMUs just in case for the few weekends per year that they will be needed for diversion is excessive when the pendo can be dragged!

Then you have what happens if the blockage is at Hemel and you need to drag again?

I feel that keeping Deisel's on the mainlines just in case is a little excessive, even on the ECML when the wires are down at Newark for example you can't use all the HSTs via Lincoln like in the good old days as the drivers don't sign the route anyway. I suspect not many West Coast drivers sign settle-Carlisle or Carlisle - Kilmarnock if they did need to use it quickly.

 

[Broken Viking]

So you are going to take the 370 out of the Crewe Heritage Centre then?

That's not what I'd meant to type (Note to self: Don't use number-pad when tired! ) but once she'd been repaired and restored to her original condition,. I'd certainly want to see her back in service along the West Coast! She's too fine a train to be just left sat in one place gathering dust and dirt, IMO.

And though I was suggesting that SWT should get the Pendos (With the 444s perhaps being rearranged internally for high capacity Hounslow services) I'd love to see a few TRE'd 370s on London - Weymouth services too!
That said, I think I'd love to see 370s on just about every InterCity route going!

All I seen when I clicked on this thread was "West Coast Franchise" and "Death".
I'm hoping the DfT can rearrange the words and whoever wins it ditches the awful management they inherit

Add a plus sign between those two phrases, and ye'd get a 700%+ overall increase in speed limits along the WCML...

But how much will we really need the Voyagers for diversions now, they seem an expensive luxary when you can drag the Pendo's just as well.

But aren't Pendos limited to 100mph when being dragged? That's a whole 30% reduction in maximum speed...Which when coupled with a longer diversionary route could double or even treble the journey time!

Personally, I think a better approach would be to get a new generation of diesel locos in that would be capable of safely dragging a Pendo at up to 225mph. This would at least negate the problem of lower speeds and longer journey times when dragging.

 

[Failed Unit]

But aren't Pendos limited to 100mph when being dragged? That's a whole 30% reduction in maximum speed...Which when coupled with a longer diversionary route could double or even treble the journey time!

The Voyagers wouldn't do much better, not many of the unwire diversions can let any train go about 75mph.

As for a fantasy West Coast timetable, with lots of Pendos appearing out of thin air

Manchester Route
London Euston, Stoke-On-Trent, Manchester Piccadilly, Bolton, Preston, Blackpool North
London Euston, Watford Junction, Nuneaton, Stoke-On-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Bolton, Chorley, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, {Motherwell & Glasgow} or {Haymarket and Edinburgh}
London Euston, Milton Keynes, Tamworth / Lichfield, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.

Liverpool Route
London Euston, Watford Junction, Rugby, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
London Euston, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street

Birmingham Route
London Euston, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith, Carlisle {Motherwell & Glasgow} or {Haymarket & Edinburgh}
London Euston, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford, Wellington, Shrewsbury
London Euston, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
London Euston, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-On-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.

Scottish Route
London, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow,
London, Watford Junction / Milton Keynes, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie {Motherwell & Glasgow} or {Haymarket and Edinburgh}

Wales
London, Rugby, Tamworth / Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Onwards to Holyhead

This would take some paths away from other operators.
TPE Manchester - Blackpool / Scotland
LM Birmingham - Liverpool and Shrewsbury
XC Birmingham - Manchester

Another operator would do
Birmingham, Wolverhamton, Penkride, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Blackpool North

I know many reason why this would never happen or why it would never feature in a franchise spec!

 

[sprinterguy]

I’m largely just parroting what others have already said, but I thought I’d say it anyway. Ordered in terms of decreasing feasibility:

Hourly (Filling in the remaining gaps) service to Glasgow Central

Half hourly service to Liverpool Lime Street

All of the existing Pendolinos extended to eleven carriages.

Manchester to Scotland services reabsorbed into the West Coast franchise. A new fleet of seven carriage “Mini-Pendolinos”, preferably formed DMRF-PTF-MS-TS-MS-PTS-DMS, built to cover Birmingham-Scotland and Manchester-Scotland. I’d settle for a build of four or five carriage Desiros of some description for these runs, which I’d consider more likely.

Electrification from Crewe to Chester, with Pendolinos replacing the current Voyager service.

This releases all of West Coasts’ Voyagers to Crosscountry.

 

[Zoe]

This releases all of West Coasts’ Voyagers to Crosscountry.

I'm not sure XC would be the destination. By the time it's done FGWs remaining HST will be getting quite old and if MML electrification doesn't get done the FGW would be a more suitable destination for services from London to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[Failed Unit]

Manchester to Scotland services reabsorbed into the West Coast franchise. A new fleet of seven carriage “Mini-Pendolinos”, preferably formed DMRF-PTF-MS-TS-MS-PTS-DMS, built to cover Birmingham-Scotland and Manchester-Scotland. I’d settle for a build of four or five carriage Desiros of some description for these runs, which I’d consider more likely.

Demand is stange on the route to be honest.

I have done Edinburgh - Manchester when a 156 would be perfect capacity wise until Preston but on others you really need a 6 coach set - I know Friday afternoons. Likewise the Birmingham route can be very empty until Preston on some trips and over-crowded throughout.

If you were going to build new trains for this route they really need to be at least 6 coaches to cater for future growth, otherwise we will have the Voyager / 185 situation all over again, fine for the 1st year they enter service but quickly out of capacity. That is the downside of ordering trains, planning for 30 years ahead as it is rare for coaches to be added into existing trains, look at the hastle for the pendos!

 

[gordonthemoron]

how about a voyager sized pendo coupled with a super voyager doing london-chester, with the super voyager continuing to holyhead?

 

[TrainfanBen]

Now I don't know if this would be physically possible, (I'm not an expert) but here goes:

Extend the Coventry-Nuneaton service to Tamworth.
This could decrease congestion at New street.

I don't know what routes/rolling stock would be affected, but it could prove popular.

Feedback please

 

[tbtc]

Holyhead to Euston via Birmingham was tried c 1984/85 to save money but the through journey time was too long compared with via Trent Valley.personally I would prefer a Holyhead to London service every 2 hours throughout the day as originally promised rather than the current flight of trains every hour each morning out of Holyhead and then virtually nothing for the rest of the day.

With cheap flights to Ireland from most airports in the UK, there's not the same demand for long distance services along the North Wales Coast any more. If anything, there's more demand for a Liverpool service (there are currently no trains between there and North Wales)

What could be interesting is the aftermath of the Tory Conference in Wales this spring. If, as has been rumoured they announce they will wire the GWML to Cardiff, then take the opportunity to devolve railway electrification to the WAG then that leaves Cardiff Bay with the headache of whether to fund wiring to Swansea or not. Similarly I'd like to see Crewe - Chester wired up (through EMUs from the Wirral to the WCML etc), but that leaves the problem of what to do with the line west of Chester...

 

[nr_signaller]

Now I don't know if this would be physically possible, (I'm not an expert) but here goes:

Extend the Coventry-Nuneaton service to Tamworth.
This could decrease congestion at New street.

I don't know what routes/rolling stock would be affected, but it could prove popular.

Feedback please

The signalling wont allow it, even if there were points at tamworth (which there isnt) or bi di signals on the down slow to get back to amington junction (which there isnt) then would require crossing all 4 lines to cross over onto the up slow then cross all 4 lines again at nuneaton, it isnt going to happen!

 

[tbtc]

The signalling wont allow it, even if there were points at tamworth (which there isnt) or bi di signals on the down slow to get back to amington junction (which there isnt) then would require crossing all 4 lines to cross over onto the up slow then cross all 4 lines again at nuneaton, it isnt going to happen!

Its a shame, because it would be a good diversion route as well as a way of providing direct links from the city of Coventry to Trent Valley stations (used to be the case under BR), and so provide a better case for electrification

 

[cslusarc]

I would like to see: well, first of all a second train an hour for Liverpool, calling at Nuneaton, Crewe, Runcorn and Liverpool. I would like to see Glasgow go hourly, with the first stop being Preston, then Lancaster, Oxenholme/Penrith, Carlisle and Glasgow. Then I would like to see the rest of the Pendolinos lengthened, its silly only 31 sets are being lengthened. I would like to see a 'mini-Pendolino' order for around 32-35 sets being 5 cars in length to displace all Voyagers to XC, with the extra 12-15 sets (there's only 20 Voyagers at the moment) being used to run a new Lancaster stopping service possibly using the slow lines between Euston-Milton Keynes calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Wigan North Western, Preston and Lancaster. This would give Nuneaton a fast service to London and another fast-ish one linking in various towns and cities. If there were enough sets from this (I've worked out that this hourly Lancaster service would need around 6 sets, and with current Voyager diagrams standing at 18 this would utilise 24 sets out of 32-35) I would give Manchester-Scotland to Virgin. Use the 57's on the diesel sections for the Chester/Holyhead services, and also extend one Wolverhampton working to Shrewsbury with a 57 hauling the set on. This could form a morning service the next day, with the same for one of the peak-hour Preston terminating Pendolino's being extended to/from Blackpool with a 57. A lot I know, but it doesn't actually require hardly any of infrastructure work, just around 30 mini-Pendolino's and the extension of the others, however I am aware there may be pathing issues. With XC receiving these 221's, 11 could double up single Voyager services to increase capacity, with the other 10 displacing 220's onto Nottingham-Cardiff services, with these 3 car 170's working the 2 car 170 diagrams to Stansted (platform lengths permitting or using SD0) with 9 of these 10 170's being displaced to NXEA, which could then in turn displace the 156's to Northern/EMT, with 5 going to Northern and 4 going to EMT. So with a new order of Pendolino's, your helping out two regional operators who need capacity!

1. Given that there is a capacity contraint at London Euston, I think any additional trains on the West Coast Main Line need to be extentions of existing trains. For example if the operator thinks the market could support another train to Liverpool, then it needs to be an extension of a Euston - Birmingham New Street services routed via Wolverampton and Stafford.
2. I don't think that all 53 Class 390s need to be extended.
3. I think the market could sustain faster services between Glasgow and London Euston. The idea of only 4 intermediate stops sounds promissing.
4. Both the West Coast InterCity and East Coast InterCity franchisees need additional 125 mph electric rolling stock now.
5. Once additional electric rolling stock is delivered and additional electricification in the Northwest is completed, some Voyagers can be cascaded to other operators before/after Operation Thor.
6. I agree that Manchester - Scotland via the WCML should be operated by the West Coast InterCity franchisee.
7. Without additional electricifican to North Wales, only services to/beyond Chester and Wrexham should be operated with desiel rolling stock (excluding selected trains operated by ScotRail and Northern Rail only using small sections of the WCML).

 

[The Planner]

2. I don't think that all 53 Class 390s need to be extended.

4. Both the West Coast InterCity and East Coast InterCity franchisees need additional 125 mph electric rolling stock now.

You don't think they need extending, but we need more ??

 

[tbtc]

A few ideas for the WCML franchise

1. Electrify a few short stretches (Walsall - Rugeley, Coventry - Nuneaton, Bedford - Bletchley, Crewe - Chester, Derby - Stoke)

2. Give the LM Snow Hill services to Chiltern (who run on most of those tracks already), give the Birmingham - Shrewsbury service to Wales/Borders (who run over all those lines, and provide the Sunday service to local stations west of Wolves), give the New Street - Hereford service to XC (it used to run through to Nottingham)

3. The token Holyhead service can be run by dragged EMUs

4. This leaves LM/VT with an all-EMU set of services (no diesels on the WCML south of Coventry/ Crewe). Merge the two franchises into one super-one (which also includes EMT service from Derby to Crewe, the XC service from Birmingham to Manchester and the TPE service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Glasgow/Edinburgh)

5. Develop a set of co-ordinated services, with every train through Crewe to stop there. This then gives a "turn up and go" set of connections at a station which is more pleasant to change at than New Street and much easier to improve

6. New EMUs built along the 350 model (replacing Voyagers on the longer-distance services like London - Chester), to allow services to be split at Crewe/ Preston on WCML services (e.g. a Birmingham - Crewe service which splits with portions for Liverpool/Preston)

7. Frees up a couple of dozen DMUs (150/ 153/ 170/ 220/ 221 etc) which can be allocated to other TOCs

8. When the Lancashire electrification happens, sort out the 323s so that either all the Northern ones move to WCML, or all the WCML ones move to Northern (additional EMUs will be needed to run routes like the Chase line)

 

[Zoe]

give the New Street - Hereford service to XC

Remember the XC franchise does not include management of stations. I'd give the service to FGW.

 

[tbtc]

Remember the XC franchise does not include management of stations. I'd give the service to FGW.

Fair point.

Which stations on the line are LM "run" and which FGW "run"?

 

[MCR247]

Give it to XC, let Chiltern manage up to Malvern/Worcester, and FGW manage the rest

 

[Zoe]

Give it to XC, let Chiltern manage up to Malvern/Worcester, and FGW manage the rest

It's a bit pointless giving the service to XC and having another TOC manage the stations that they don't actually serve. Worcester is also a long way outside Chilterns. FGW would be a good choice though.

 

[MCR247]

I was going a long the basis that tbtc said giving the snow hill lines to Chiltern. And where do they run to? Oh, Worcester and Malvern...

FGW serve the rest with their Cotswald Servies.

If you gave it back to XC, it would mean Nottingham - Hereford, like it always was

 

[Zoe]

Another option of course would be a new Central franchise.