Northern's upcoming plans

[Shaw S Hunter]

And this is why it makes sense for Northern to grab any modern stock which is available (or soon to be) to help with their plan to replace the 15x fleet.

If only it was that simple. Training costs are not exactly minimal. It would have been so much better if the BR policy of having standardised trains/platforms had continued into the privatisation era but the government wanted the market to decide. So we have a relatively small fleet of Coradias about to become surplus and apparently in need of a home but which will generate not inconsiderable "start-up" costs for any new operator which will be even worse if a new maintenance base has to be used. As I have said before I would not yet rule out the 175s being scrapped once TfW is done with them.

 

[skyhigh]

before the cliffe there is a level crossing at the West end of the platform Im not sure what rules and regs are but I can't see trains being allowed to sit on level crossings!

Knaresborough is a manual crossing and is normally shut to road traffic (there is an underpass for pedestrians) so I can't see overhanging it being much of an issue.

 

[Mamorin]

It would have been so much better if the BR policy of having standardised trains/platforms had continued

That did continue somewhat in the south with some of the Electrostar family, but everywhere else got whatever the market wanted.

The BR policy of standardised trains/platforms should have continued into privatisation, because then we might not have units like the 379s being in storage and we would not have the 175s not having a future home.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Knaresborough is a manual crossing and is normally shut to road traffic (there is an underpass for pedestrians) so I can't see overhanging it being much of an issue.

As far as the law is concerned I doubt the fact that the gates are usually closed to road traffic will have any relevance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No 2s for two reasons. Firstly they can't then be tempted to send one out alone. Secondly, low floor needs to be required in at least one vehicle on all new trains, and an unpowered middle trailer is an ideal place to do it if you're not going Stadler and still want kit under the floor.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Secondly, low floor needs to be required in at least one vehicle on all new trains

is this a new regulation ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

is this a new regulation ?

No, it's my opinion, hence "needs to be required" rather than "is required"

 

[Trainbike46]

No 2s for two reasons. Firstly they can't then be tempted to send one out alone. Secondly, low floor needs to be required in at least one vehicle on all new trains, and an unpowered middle trailer is an ideal place to do it if you're not going Stadler and still want kit under the floor.

Depending on northern's exact needs, you could even go for a mix of 3 and 6 car trains. For the FLIRT, 6 is the largest number of cars that can be powered with a single powerpack, and before entering the terrority of half-sets. If there is enough routes where northern regularly sends out 6 car trains, getting some sixes will be the cheapest option on a per seat/per coach basis

 

[Halifaxlad]

For the FLIRT, 6 is the largest number of cars that can be powered with a single powerpack

Very interesting point!

If there is enough routes where northern regularly sends out 6 car trains, getting some sixes will be the cheapest option on a per seat/per coach basis

Whilst previous/current plans for Northern were/are to run 6 coach services from my understanding these were only to happen during peak hours by using two sets. I can't see Northern liking the idea of running fixed 6 car sets about the place for a minute especially if its not electric. The Aire Valley services are fixed at four cars and in the evening, even they on one of Northers most popular routes are far from half full!

Personally I think a mixture of fixed four car and two car sets would be ideal for Northern!

 

[Killingworth]

Depending on northern's exact needs, you could even go for a mix of 3 and 6 car trains. For the FLIRT, 6 is the largest number of cars that can be powered with a single powerpack, and before entering the terrority of half-sets. If there is enough routes where northern regularly sends out 6 car trains, getting some sixes will be the cheapest option on a per seat/per coach basis

Fixed 5, 6, 7 or 8 car sets are fine if there's regular need for them but 2, 3 or 4 car sets offer more flexibilty.

Which inevitably leads us on to the restrictions posed by units like the 195 and 185. One half of a 5 or 6 car train may be almost empty and the other rammed full. Without a through corridor connection neither passengers nor staff can move between. Passengers will play that to avoid paying and catering can't get through the full train. Go in the busier half and they may struggle to get through the train. Choose the quieter half and they sell little.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fixed 5, 6, 7 or 8 car sets are fine if there's regular need for them but 2, 3 or 4 car sets offer more flexibilty.

Which inevitably leads us on to the restrictions posed by units like the 195 and 185. One half of a 5 or 6 car train may be almost empty and the other rammed full. Without a through corridor connection neither passengers nor staff can move between. Passengers will play that to avoid paying and catering can't get through the full train. Go in the busier half and they may struggle to get through the train. Choose the quieter half and they sell little.

Not really inevitable. Spec gangways and you're sorted. (This is a reason not to go Stadler - I don't believe they offer them).

 

[Energy]

Not really inevitable. Spec gangways and you're sorted. (This is a reason not to go Stadler - I don't believe they offer them).

I'd be suprised if Stadler wouldn't offer it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be suprised if Stadler wouldn't offer it.

I reckon they'd bid it, but I don't think I've ever seen a FLIRT with a gangway so it might be more difficult for them.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Without a through corridor connection neither passengers nor staff can move between. Passengers will play that to avoid paying and catering can't get through the full train. Go in the busier half and they may struggle to get through the train. Choose the quieter half and they sell little.

This certainly happens a lot between Leeds and Halifax where services have to reverse at Bradford. Isn't there also some rule that conductors have to be in the rear unit ?

Not really inevitable. Spec gangways and you're sorted. (This is a reason not to go Stadler - I don't believe they offer them).

I don't think Northern like gangways between units for some strange reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think Northern like gangways between units for some strange reason.

Don't they? They have plenty of units that have them. The 195s were ordered without, but most likely that was just because it was cheaper not to have them, and with the 195s it was essentially "order the base model or have nothing at all" - hence for instance the selection of seating (which I personally like but is definitely a cheap option).

 

[Trainbike46]

I reckon they'd bid it, but I don't think I've ever seen a FLIRT with a gangway so it might be more difficult for them.

I don't think there is ANY Stadler train with gangways to be honest.

Which doesn't mean it couldn't be build, but it clearly isn't their expertise

 

[Halifaxlad]

Don't they? They have plenty of units that have them. The 195s were ordered without, but most likely that was just because it was cheaper not to have them, and with the 195s it was essentially "order the base model or have nothing at all" - hence for instance the selection of seating (which I personally like but is definitely a cheap option).

I was referring to when it comes to ordering new trains.

Whatever end up ordering will be interesting to say that CAF has designed and built 197's with corridor connections for Transport for Wales.

 

[MattRat]

Don't they? They have plenty of units that have them. The 195s were ordered without, but most likely that was just because it was cheaper not to have them, and with the 195s it was essentially "order the base model or have nothing at all" - hence for instance the selection of seating (which I personally like but is definitely a cheap option).

Also the potential order of hybrid units, the meet emission targets, but also stay in budget. And that may still be too expensive, which makes it impossible to meet emissions targets. But that's Northern's problem apparently, not the DFT's.....

 

[Killingworth]

I don't think Northern like gangways between units for some strange reason.

I'd have thought pairs of 150/2s (or 150/2 with 156/158) would be useful, but I can't recall ever seeing them coupled together in service with corridor connection in use. Does it happen or is there some operational reason why not?

 

[43096]

Not really inevitable. Spec gangways and you're sorted. (This is a reason not to go Stadler - I don't believe they offer them).

Gangways are pretty irrelevant between units in most cases. Normals will always congregate in the same place, oblivious to the fact there’s loads of space further down the train through a gangway. Even when there’s a PA announcement that there’s space elsewhere, they still there like lemons.

 

[skyhigh]

I'd have thought pairs of 150/2s (or 150/2 with 156/158) would be useful, but I can't recall ever seeing them coupled together in service with corridor connection in use. Does it happen or is there some operational reason why not?

The gangway is always used when in multiple (assuming both units are in use)

 

[Killingworth]

The gangway is always used when in multiple (assuming both units are in use)

How often are they used in multiple? Whenever I see them they seem to be with a 150/1.

 

[Neptune]

How often are they used in multiple? Whenever I see them they seem to be with a 150/1.

The 150/1’s are all based on the west side with the 150/2’s based mainly east with a very small handful on the west.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How often are they used in multiple? Whenever I see them they seem to be with a 150/1.

I think this is just the old random unit generator doing its finest rather than a disdain for gangways.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't think Northern like gangways between units for some strange reason.

Not so much Northern as an organisation, more the practical impact on everyday operations. For drivers used to full-width cabs a gangway makes for a significantly inferior working environment. Then add to that the wear and tear over many years degrading the gangway seals and you have built in draughts, no fun at any speed. But as others have said when two gangway fitted sets are working together and both in passenger use then the gangway will be opened up. It would be interesting to hear from anyone with frontline experience of all the old Southern Region mainline sets eg CEPs, CIGs, VEPs as to the extent that gangways deteriorated with age and what was done to mitigate it.

 

[Neptune]

I think this is just the old random unit generator doing its finest rather than a disdain for gangways.

Or it could be what I said in the post above yours. This random unit generator nonsense is as irritating as the phrase “ironing boards”.

 

[Chester1]

If only it was that simple. Training costs are not exactly minimal. It would have been so much better if the BR policy of having standardised trains/platforms had continued into the privatisation era but the government wanted the market to decide. So we have a relatively small fleet of Coradias about to become surplus and apparently in need of a home but which will generate not inconsiderable "start-up" costs for any new operator which will be even worse if a new maintenance base has to be used. As I have said before I would not yet rule out the 175s being scrapped once TfW is done with them.

I don't think its likely because there are two ToCs that could take them (Chiltern and GWR) that are running expensive and old loco hauled sets on regional routes. The cost and hassle are likely to put of DfT from agreeing to move them to Northern. I think Northern will try to grab the 158s and turbos that they can until DfT authorises new bimode stock.

 

[Mamorin]

But as others have said when two gangway fitted sets are working together and both in passenger use then the gangway will be opened up.

I’ve heard this was apparently not the case with GA and their 379s, I’m sure Northern do open the gangways on sets that are coupled up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

I think Northern will try to grab the 158s and turbos that they can until DfT authorises new bimode stock.

When are any 158s and Turbostars coming off lease for Northern to try and grab?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When are any 158s and Turbostars coming off lease for Northern to try and grab?

TfW's 158s will come off lease as the 197s enter service.

 

[Trainbike46]

TfW's 158s will come off lease as the 197s enter service.

Is there any chance of those going to GWR to replace HSTs? if so I would imagine that's more likely as it would save DfT money