Northern's upcoming plans

[jonesy3001]

Seems to have gone quiet with the hybrid 195s, is that still happening?

 

[Pinus contorta]

I read somewhere the other day that this is 'under review'

 

[LOL The Irony]

I read somewhere the other day that this is 'under review'

Like all trains not currently on the way. See LNER as well.

 

[Mamorin]

Seems to have gone quiet with the hybrid 195s, is that still happening?

The September issue of Modern Railways says the hybrid 195 plan is under review, this is due to the high cost of procuring the units.

 

[MattRat]

The September issue of Modern Railways says the hybrid 195 plan is under review, this is due to the high cost of procuring the units.

So, they want them to meet emissions targets, but they won't do simple electrification projects, and they drag their feet over paying for lower emission units?

I presume they are banking on pixie dust and genie wishes to get results?

 

[Mamorin]

To patly quote the September 2022 issue of Modern Railways "Northern’s Strategic development director Rob Warnes told Modern Railways that Northern remain in negations with CAF." (That not the whole quote but the whole quote is not needed)

I would say yes Northern are banking on pixie dust and genie wishes to get results as I can’t see CAF lowering the price they have asked for.

If there was more electrification projects these units may not be needed or may be cheeper.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The September issue of Modern Railways says the hybrid 195 plan is under review, this is due to the high cost of procuring the units.

They're probably exceedingly expensive compared to the bcr of full fat bi-mode or not bothering with hybrids at all.

 

[Neptune]

So, they want them to meet emissions targets, but they won't do simple electrification projects, and they drag their feet over paying for lower emission units?

I presume they are banking on pixie dust and genie wishes to get results?

You do realise that Northern are not responsible for implementing electrification projects.

 

[Trainbike46]

You do realise that Northern are not responsible for implementing electrification projects.

At the end of the day, the DfT is responsible for making decisions regarding electrification, and the DfT are also micromanaging northern.

Though why northern wouldn't take full bimodes, but order hybrids instead is something I don't get tbh. Presumably the hybrids they were looking at were Diesel-electric MUs plus a battery but without a pantograph, right? (if not please correct me). But at that point, why not make them a proper bimode so they can run electric on partially electrified routes?

 

[skyhigh]

But at that point, why not make them a proper bimode so they can run electric on partially electrified routes?

The justification was they were being ordered for a specific use that would mean they wouldn't work under OHLE. It's academic now though, because the plan is now dead in the water.

 

[MattRat]

You do realise that Northern are not responsible for implementing electrification projects.

I was talking about the government.

 

[Greybeard33]

Though why northern wouldn't take full bimodes, but order hybrids instead is something I don't get tbh. Presumably the hybrids they were looking at were Diesel-electric MUs plus a battery but without a pantograph, right? (if not please correct me).

As described in a previous thread, the Northern 195 hybrids would have been diesel-mechanical not diesel-electric. Basically the existing drivetrain with a motor-alternator added to the diesel engine to make a parallel hybrid. No provision for OLE power.

Potential Order for 20 hybrid 195s for Northern - Speculative discussion

It very much seems this is a "cheap extra stock" thing, but taking into account that the purchase of new "straight" DMUs on new orders may well be somewhat deprecated. Shame, as Northern's WCML routes are crying out for decent bi-modes (769s aren't really up to the - or any - job, sadly)...

railforums.co.uk

 

[tbtc]

At the end of the day, the DfT is responsible for making decisions regarding electrification, and the DfT are also micromanaging northern

^ this ^

We have a lot of threads where people talk about how “GWR want to eliminate their Sprinters” or “Chiltern want bi- modes” but all of it is meaningless, the Government control everything now (especially at Northern/ LNER, coincidently two of the three most struggling operators, along with First’s Avanti…)

If the Government want new trains for Northern then it’ll happen, if they don’t then it won’t, all of the commitments that Arriva signed up for (new services like Nottingham to Bradford, commitments to station staffing times, actually running trains to Brigg etc) are meaningless, history means nothing, accept that everything (infrastructure, new trains, service levels etc) is at the mercy of the Government

(I say “Government” because sometimes that means Westminster, sometimes that means Holyrood etc, before we get into semantics)

 

[Pinus contorta]

Are these the units they likely want to use on the Windermere line because Mr Grayling cancelled the electrification scheme?

 

[Mamorin]

Are these the units they likely want to use on the Windermere line because Mr Grayling cancelled the electrification scheme?

The hybrid units (if built) are planned for use on Wigan to Leeds via Brighouse and Huddersfield local services.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Wouldn't it be better than building hybrid units to do what GA have done but instead of a poxy traction carriage do it so that the power is still under the floor ?

 

[Trainbike46]

Wouldn't it be better than building hybrid units to do what GA have done but instead of a poxy traction carriage do it so that the power is still under the floor ?

What's wrong with the powerpack? it's a very flexible solution, and makes true level boarding easier.

If it was up to me Northern would order a fleet of 755/756-like trains to eliminate/strongly reduce diesel under the wires, replace sprinters (partially through moving 195s around) and improve the experience for passengers in the north.

though I can see the case that given the number of civities northern already has (class 195 and 331), a civity bimode similar to the 331 may be operationally easier

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's wrong with the powerpack? it's a very flexible solution, and makes true level boarding easier.

Indeed. To me level boarding should be mandatory for all new orders, though one coach (the one with the wheelchair space) would be fine so you could do a 3-car set with the middle car low floor and the driving cars powered, like the converted Swiss "Domino" units.

 

[Halifaxlad]

What's wrong with the powerpack? it's a very flexible solution, and makes true level boarding easier.

Nothings wrong with it in the slightest!

Don't forget it makes trains longer, which if done up North will require platforms to be lengthened!

Also if new trains were 3 car then platforms will have to be lengthened by approximately two thirds of a carriage length.

Also on some lines this will prevent running four car trains as stations like knaresborough are only long enough for four car trains and can't be extended.

In short power packs above the floor arn't practical unless you want to eat into passenger capacity.

 

[Trainbike46]

Nothings wrong with it in the slightest!

Don't forget it makes trains longer, which if done up North will require platforms to be lengthened!

Also if new trains were 3 car then platforms will have to be lengthened by approximately two thirds of a carriage length.

Also on some lines this will prevent running four car trains as stations like knaresborough are only long enough for four car trains and can't be extended.

the powerpack isn't that long, so if a slight platform overhang is possible then that should be able to fix it in most places.

Though you would probably want to go for 3 or 4 car units at least, and avoid the need for doubling up

 

[InkyScrolls]

Also on some lines this will prevent running four car trains as stations like Knaresborough are only long enough for four car trains and can't be extended.

To clarify for anyone who doesn't know the line, Knaresborough station is situated between a cliff and a tunnel; without completely resiting the station there's no way to extend the platforms.

 

[Trainbike46]

To clarify for anyone who doesn't know the line, Knaresborough station is situated between a cliff and a tunnel; without completely resiting the station there's no way to extend the platforms.

Really! that does sound like extending platforms won't work

Though for that station selective door opening might be a good shout then, if longer trains ever become necessary/desirable

 

[InkyScrolls]

Really! that does sound like extending platforms won't work

Though for that station selective door opening might be a good shout then, if longer trains ever become necessary/desirable

SDO would be the ideal solution; the Harrogate line trains are currently limited to 3 carriage 170s for the above reason and they're frequently full and standing, even outside rush-hour. To be honest I'm surprised Northern hasn't introduced double 195s to the line, unless there's gauging issues I'm not aware of.

(Which would in theory free up the 170s for use on the Leeds - Settle - Carlisle line, if the promised linespeed improvements to 75 mph between Skipton and Carlisle ever become a reality!)

 

[Neptune]

SDO would be the ideal solution; the Harrogate line trains are currently limited to 3 carriage 170s for the above reason and they're frequently full and standing, even outside rush-hour.

I wouldn’t say that the Harrogate line is frequently full and standing outside the peak. They are busy, sure like most routes around Leeds but frequently f&s is pushing it.

To be honest I'm surprised Northern hasn't introduced double 195s to the line, unless there's gauging issues I'm not aware of.

The 195’s are all spoken for.

(Which would in theory free up the 170s for use on the Leeds - Settle - Carlisle line, if the promised linespeed improvements to 75 mph between Skipton and Carlisle ever become a reality!)

If 170’s were ever taken off the Harrogate line (unlikely) they certainly won’t be straying onto the S&C.

They’ll most likely diagram 4 units onto the Hull - Halifax circuit as they’d be more suitable than the current 158’s diagrammed on those services and the other 2 would most likely replace the 2 Heaton diagrammed 158’s that work off Hull each day. Therefore no cost in any additional traction training (there are a hell of a lot of drivers and conductors at Carlisle & Skipton would need training) and they’d be working off their home depot of BG.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I wouldn’t say that the Harrogate line is frequently full and standing outside the peak. They are busy, sure like most routes around Leeds but frequently f&s is pushing it.

The 195’s are all spoken for.

If 170’s were ever taken off the Harrogate line (unlikely) they certainly won’t be straying onto the S&C.

They’ll most likely diagram 4 units onto the Hull - Halifax circuit as they’d be more suitable than the current 158’s diagrammed on those services and the other 2 would most likely replace the 2 Heaton diagrammed 158’s that work off Hull each day. Therefore no cost in any additional traction training (there are a hell of a lot of drivers and conductors at Carlisle & Skipton would need training) and they’d be working off their home depot of BG.

I bow to your superior knowledge - I don't work the Harrogate line but it always appears pretty full at Leeds.

 

[Neptune]

I bow to your superior knowledge - I don't work the Harrogate line but it always appears pretty full at Leeds.

The student market between Leeds and Horsforth distorts perceptions. Still not f&s but beyond Horsforth trains are at a much more comfortable load. Since they went half hourly between Knaresborough and York last year passenger loads are far more even at the other end too.

 

[Mamorin]

Indeed. To me level boarding should be mandatory for all new orders, though one coach (the one with the wheelchair space) would be fine so you could do a 3-car set with the middle car low floor and the driving cars powered, like the converted Swiss "Domino" units.

I agree that level boarding for be mandatory for all new orders, it’s a shame the 195s and 331s were not built with level boarding.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It's just as well that this thread is in the Speculative Discussion part of the forum because there's been an awful lot of comment based on nothing more than second-hand reporting of an internal industry aspiration specific to one operator. The reality is that any acquisition of new rolling stock is utterly dependent on the willingness of government to either finance it directly or underwrite whatever deals are made with outside financiers and leasing companies.

Given the parlous state of the economy and the uncertainty around future levels of passenger demand I would fully expect government, certainly in England, to put off any decisions on new rolling stock for as long as possible. It's looking increasingly as if the current Truss administration has little appetite for meeting previously agreed environmental targets unless "someone else" can find a way to do so, preferably while making a tax-generating profit. As for replacing the Sprinter fleet as long as we continue to elect right-wing governments it would not surprise me if an element of fleet replacement will actually be achieved by non-replacement ie with significant cuts in service levels and perhaps even line closures.

It's all very well talking about ideals such as improved accessibility and avoiding the use of diesel traction as much as possible but I don't think that politicians actually care very much about such things. Perhaps what we need is a trainspotting version of Greta Thunberg!

 

[Philip]

It's just as well that this thread is in the Speculative Discussion part of the forum because there's been an awful lot of comment based on nothing more than second-hand reporting of an internal industry aspiration specific to one operator. The reality is that any acquisition of new rolling stock is utterly dependent on the willingness of government to either finance it directly or underwrite whatever deals are made with outside financiers and leasing companies.

Given the parlous state of the economy and the uncertainty around future levels of passenger demand I would fully expect government, certainly in England, to put off any decisions on new rolling stock for as long as possible. It's looking increasingly as if the current Truss administration has little appetite for meeting previously agreed environmental targets unless "someone else" can find a way to do so, preferably while making a tax-generating profit. As for replacing the Sprinter fleet as long as we continue to elect right-wing governments it would not surprise me if an element of fleet replacement will actually be achieved by non-replacement ie with significant cuts in service levels and perhaps even line closures.

It's all very well talking about ideals such as improved accessibility and avoiding the use of diesel traction as much as possible but I don't think that politicians actually care very much about such things. Perhaps what we need is a trainspotting version of Greta Thunberg!

And this is why it makes sense for Northern to grab any modern stock which is available (or soon to be) to help with their plan to replace the 15x fleet.

 

[Halifaxlad]

the powerpack isn't that long, so if a slight platform overhang is possible then that should be able to fix it in most places.

Though you would probably want to go for 3 or 4 car units at least, and avoid the need for doubling up

The trouble there are or at least they're were plans to double up services to 6 car lengths upon both sides of the Pennines. Personally I think we these should be made up of 4 and 2 car units rather than 3 car units.

To clarify for anyone who doesn't know the line, Knaresborough station is situated between a cliff and a tunnel; without completely resiting the station there's no way to extend the platforms.

Thanks for that!

Though for that station selective door opening might be a good shout then, if longer trains ever become necessary/desirable

before the cliffe there is a level crossing at the West end of the platform Im not sure what rules and regs are but I can't see trains being allowed to sit on level crossings!

Aside from Knaresborough a lot of platforms were lengthened not so long ago such as the Calder Valley line to facilitate 6 car trains, thats obviously with SDO as these extensions only made the platforms long enough for 5 car trains. I can't see it being possible without having to extend large numbers of platforms.