This DMU cascade - what is actually going on?

[bluenoxid]

Scarborough would probably get dropped and transferred over to Northern (extension of Man Vic's, Hulls (either end) or self contained with a Haxby shuttle) if electrification went ahead.

Diggle is well behind a number of other routes and is unlikely to see wires until well after the next control period.

 

[387star]

I wonder if Northern and TPE will still be combined?

I'd like First to repaint the 185s in the HST power car blue!

 

[YorkshireBear]

id have scarbroughs extend from blackpool north york... remove stops on leeds york section give them to an extrea service on electrified route...

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd like First to repaint the 185s in the HST power car blue!

Hmm I think the livery that 185s are currently in looks pretty good to be honest. Don't try to fix something that isn't broken!

As for combining Northern and TPE as far as I know there is nothing from the DfT that says "we will combine the franchises". I'm not sure it would be a good idea anyway...

Also think that it would make sense to give Scarborough to Northern as part of the Blackpool service. Would certainly make life simpler in the event that some Transpennine electrification every goes ahead.

 

[tbtc]

Bit of a waste of units? Surely a 3 car 185 with First Class would be a waste on Romsey - Salisbury?

A two car 158 is a waste on routes like this or Lymington - especially when we are crying out for 158s elsewhere
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

185s released from Manchester to Scotland are set to be used to reinstate the 2 hourly Manchester Airport to Windermere service

That'd be a waste of resources - why electrify the line and then run DMUs from Manchester to Oxenholme...

you're proposing TPE's 171 diesel carriages are reduced to 101*?

* The total number of SWT 158 and 159 carriages.

Are you not counting the 170s?

The 51 TPE 185s would be better sent to Wales IMHO

 

[Nym]

That'd be a waste of resources - why electrify the line and then run DMUs from Manchester to Oxenholme...

Because initally (Between 2015? and 2019 when it's finished) they will be running the route via Bolton. As to retain an hourly fast Airport - Picc - OR - Bolton - Chorley - Preston - Lancaster service. In addition to this, some of these services avoid Chorley and run non-stop via Wigan North Western, route knowlage, now IMO this route should be wired next into North Western and Wallgate, with the 3rd rail extended on the merseyrail routes into Wallgate, then isolate the Atherton Line as a diesel island terminating services at Wallgate and run via. Bolton terminators onto Kirby and Southport, Dual Voltage stock anyone?

Eventually TPE should be getting electro-diesels anyway, well, in the world of common sense they would for TPE North...

Add into the mix as well that these diagrams are shared with stock that runs to Barrow In Furness, same problem with ONLY wiring to York for the current timetable, the off Newcastle service turns round to form the Middlesbrough Service at MIA and vice versa.

TPE should keep the 185s anyway, even IF the TP route gets wired, the're still going to need a shed tonne of units, IIRC growth is expected to mean that 9 or 10 car units are needed within a few years anyway. That could see 180s used on Newcastle and Middlesbrough runs, and 185s on Hull and Scarb. Detaching coaches where not needed at Selby (re-instate a centre line to cross between platforms) and York.

Yes the're not ideal, they could do with through gangways and being 4, 5 or 6 coaches long to start with, but the're damn good at making up time, and I like them.

 

[WatcherZero]

I believe the diversion of WCML via Wigan could actually happen as early as 2014/2015, its being fast tracked. But then I realised you were talking about the followon Oxenholme electrification from the NR Electrification RUS and there wasnt really a date I could point to, making the post irrelevent. however, remember me posting the BBC map and pointing out the errors? I went back checking the dates of electrification and found this.

Someone at the BBC reads this website, or someone else complained :P

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'd like to know what services middlsborough has and whether electryfying it to ECML would bring any benefits what so ever.... i dont know the local services up there at all unfortunately

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd like to know what services middlsborough has and whether electryfying it to ECML would bring any benefits what so ever.

The only local service to use the route via Yarm are TPEs 1tph to 'boro. If you wired up Thornaby marshalling yards might be useful for freight but honestly I doubt that as any freight onwards to Teesport and Boulby would still need diesel haulage so any FOC would need to stable both AC locos as well as diesel at Thornaby. The only other operator to use that route regularly are GC.

Personally I'm not sure about the case for wiring to Middlesbrough. As a local and proponent of electrification I would say yes (also would make life simpler for TPE or their successors if and when they get EMU's).

 

[northwichcat]

That'd be a waste of resources - why electrify the line and then run DMUs from Manchester to Oxenholme...

Manchester-Bolton-Preston won't be electrified until 2018. The Scotland service will be diverted via Wigan in the next couple of years, something has to plug the gap via Bolton for 5 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Scarborough would probably get dropped and transferred over to Northern (extension of Man Vic's, Hulls (either end) or self contained with a Haxby shuttle) if electrification went ahead.

Diggle is well behind a number of other routes and is unlikely to see wires until well after the next control period.

It was proposed York-Scarborough would be tagged on to the York-Blackpool route if electrification went ahead in the draft electrification RUS. However, as you say that would be post-2019 if it went ahead.

 

[33109]

Any idea what's going on with northern's 180s, 103/106/108?:roll:

Heard northern had got an extented lease on em but not sure until when though? It'll be a shame when they go as they've got decent capacity, are pretty comfy as well

 

[northwichcat]

Any idea what's going on with northern's 180s, 103/106/108?:roll:

Heard northern had got an extented lease on em but not sure until when though? It'll be a shame when they go as they've got decent capacity, are pretty comfy as well

Northern were due to give them back in December but FGW delayed the return of the 142s which they were supposed to return when London Overground released their 150s, but they are now retaining them until they get London Midland 150s as well. This meant Northern had to hang on to the 180s as there was nothing to replace them. Had East Coast wanted the 180s in place for the May timetable change (as NXEC had planned) then FGW would not have had the extended option available.

It's now likely Northern will lose the 180s around the time of the May timetable change.

 

[tbtc]

Personally I'm not sure about the case for wiring to Middlesbrough. As a local and proponent of electrification I would say yes (also would make life simpler for TPE or their successors if and when they get EMU's).

I think electrification works well on self-contained lines. Wiring Thirsk - would be pointless (as the TPE service would still need to be DMU operated due to the stretches between York and Manchester). However wiring Darlington to Saltburn might work (chop the Bish trips into an independant shuttle).

The trouble with Transpennine electrification is that you'd need to either cover everything (Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough etc), run DMUs 90% under the wires (to maintain links to places not electrified) or cut long-standing "through" routes. Not sure what the easy answer is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Manchester-Bolton-Preston won't be electrified until 2018. The Scotland service will be diverted via Wigan in the next couple of years, something has to plug the gap via Bolton for 5 years

I agree with an additional (bi-hourly-ish) Manchester - Bolton - Preston service to maintain the four trains per hour on this route, but extending it to Windermere?

 

[northwichcat]

I agree with an additional (bi-hourly-ish) Manchester - Bolton - Preston service to maintain the four trains per hour on this route, but extending it to Windermere?

Pre-December 07 there was a 2 hourly Airport-Windermere service, which was cut back to Preston on some services, Lancaster on others and Oxenholme on others. The only reason for cutting this service was so the Voyagers on Manchester-Scotland services would be freed up for Virgin to enhance their services, so what reason is there for not reinstating it as a through service when the 185s are released from the Scottish route?

 

[ainsworth74]

Not sure what the easy answer is.

Indeed TPE is perhaps one of the more perplexing routes. In that it needs electrifying but working out how best to do it is somewhat complicated. Someone really needs to develop a bi-mode train, that would make life so much simpler!

(Also like the idea of wiring Darlington - Satlburn! Consider me firmly behind that idea )

 

[Nym]

I believe the diversion of WCML via Wigan could actually happen as early as 2014/2015, its being fast tracked. But then I realised you were talking about the followon Oxenholme electrification from the NR Electrification RUS and there wasnt really a date I could point to, making the post irrelevent. however, remember me posting the BBC map and pointing out the errors? I went back checking the dates of electrification and found this.

Someone at the BBC reads this website, or someone else complained :P

Aren't they still missing out Bristol on that map?

 

[158722]

Going back to the original question posed; what do we know as definate or near definate?

May 2011
9x 150s LM to FGW (plus another 5 or 6 to follow)
7x 142s FGW return to NOR
3x 180s NOR to FGW
2x 180s store (ex-EC) to FGW
8x 150s LM to NOR
4x 156s NOR to EMT
with moves involving LM 150s dependent on delivery of their 172s.

Unconfirmed are the balance of LM 150s, as to how many are retained and how many extras go to NOR or FGW, as well as the future of the LM 153s.

Beyond this, other moves appear to be largely dependent on future electrification schemes and involve a wide range of possibilities as touched on in the thread so far.

 

[northwichcat]

The FGW 180s and the 5-6 150s to follow to FGW are not confirmed.

The FGW 142s will need to return to Northern a few weeks ahead of the 180s being released and FGW crews would have to be trained/refreshed on the 180s, meaning they wouldn't be available for passenger use for the May timetable change even if FGW do take them on.

The LM 150s need to arrive at Northern ahead of the May 2011 timetable change as EMT need the 4x156s in time for the May timetable change and again Northern can't release units until replacements are in place.

 

[RobShipway]

So could the 180's be sub let in the meantime by either Grand Central or Hull Trains should they need them in place of their own?

 

[tbtc]

The FGW 180s and the 5-6 150s to follow to FGW are not confirmed

Is it known what FGW are planning to use the 180s on? Upgrading 166 services (Hereford/ Worcester) or downgrading HST services (Cardiff - Paddington)?

Or is it all conjecture at this stage?

 

[RobShipway]

Is it known what FGW are planning to use the 180s on? Upgrading 166 services (Hereford/ Worcester) or downgrading HST services (Cardiff - Paddington)?

Or is it all conjecture at this stage?

I would have thought that if they were, we would have heard by now about them going in for a refresh of some kind or at least be painted into FGW colours. Plus, as was said on a previous post Northern require some class 142 trains back before the Class 180's they are using can be released.

I suspect any change will take place in the December timetable at the earliest.

 

[90019]

or at least be painted into FGW colours.

They'd likely just be vinyled unless they were coming up for repaint anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it known what FGW are planning to use the 180s on? Upgrading 166 services (Hereford/ Worcester) or downgrading HST services (Cardiff - Paddington)?

Or is it all conjecture at this stage?

From what's been posted elsewhere it looks like 180s are one possible option which FGW are looking at but as other operators don't seem to looking at the 180s people have assumed FGW will be the 180 destination. I'm also not sure if FGW are aware how badly the declassified 1st class section on the Northern 180s needs refurbishment if it is to be reinstated as a 1st class area again.

 

[moonrakerz]

Is it known what FGW are planning to use the 180s on?

Cardiff - Portsmouth on 2/3 engines. 5 cars, decent legroom, quieter internally than a 158, a/c that works, good ride...................

OUCH !! just fell out of bed and woke up...............

 

[northwichcat]

Cardiff - Portsmouth on 2/3 engines. 5 cars, decent legroom, quieter internally than a 158, a/c that works, good ride...................

OUCH !! just fell out of bed and woke up...............

A 180 isn't really quieter than a 158 and a 5 car 180 has less seats than a 4 car 158.

 

[moonrakerz]

A 180 isn't really quieter than a 158 and a 5 car 180 has less seats than a 4 car 158.

As we only have 2/3 car 158s, a 5 car 180 seating fewer than a 4 car 158, presumably because they have given the passengers a couple of extra inches leg room, would do very nicely, thank you
It would be quieter if you were sitting above a dead engine

 

[northwichcat]

As we only have 2/3 car 158s, a 5 car 180 seating fewer than a 4 car 158, presumably because they have given the passengers a couple of extra inches leg room, would do very nicely, thank you

If that's the case then unless the the 2 or 3 car units reguarly leave people on the platform the 180s wouldn't be a good choice as the capacity is needed more elsewhere.

I think the plan is to put refurbished 165s on Cardiff-Portsmouth after electrification.

 

[Freakofnature]

Aren't they still missing out Bristol on that map?

I thought the Dft had put a dampener on electrification as far as Bristol ??

 

[YorkshireBear]

I thought the Dft had put a dampener on electrification as far as Bristol ??

they are electryfying to newbury and oxford so that will release some 165's

 

[Freakofnature]

Thought so.


I was just telling someone else what I thought I had heard.