This DMU cascade - what is actually going on?

[MCR247]

I'd run a 4/5 car unit with a mini-buffet and a small FC area

 

[NXEA!]

Interesting that its suggested that LM keep the 150/2s and not the 150/1s. Does this suggest that they will operate 150/2+153 combos vice the 153+170 combos along with the 4 3-car 150/0 sets.

From my impression, FGW are to get 15 150s, NOR 9 with LM retaining 10, with LM loosing some but not all 153s and NOR passing 4 156s to EMT.

Interesting stuff. Well, the original plan from what I read in TR UK was that 9 from LM would go to FGW as well as the LO ones to make 15, with Northern receiving 8. It also said that its likely they'd keep some 150's instead of the 153's so they could get a later order of new trains as they'll be the oldest in service. So if the 153's are supposedly going, that rules out 150+153 combos. They probably wouldn't want to keep a small fleet of 153's.
And then with the two prototypes, 2 hybrids (3 2 cars in effect) plus another 6 2 cars, that means 7 are spare from the 18 150's uncascaded. Can we expect a smaller cascade announcement anytime soon to clairfy what's happening and the destination of these leftover DMU's?

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting that its suggested that LM keep the 150/2s and not the 150/1s. Does this suggest that they will operate 150/2+153 combos vice the 153+170 combos along with the 4 3-car 150/0 sets.

One possible reason is so that the 150/2 which will be acting as centre cars can be switched.
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From my impression, FGW are to get 15 150s, NOR 9 with LM retaining 10, with LM loosing some but not all 153s and NOR passing 4 156s to EMT.

Northern are getting 8 from the first phase of the LM cascade, so does this mean they get a single 150 in the second phase?

 

[158722]

One possible reason is so that the 150/2 which will be acting as centre cars can be switched.
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Northern are getting 8 from the first phase of the LM cascade, so does this mean they get a single 150 in the second phase?

I thought FGW were getting an extra 5/6 150s over and above the 9 initially quoted, which would allow their 158s to be all reformed as 3car sets (plus one spare left over). The initial 9 replace the 7 NOR 142 and hire in ATW/SWT sets. I don't think I'm double counting the LOROL 6, but admit could be my interpretation.

I suggested 9 for NOR as that was balance left after 15 for FGW and 10 for LM (if I can add up!)

Agree that the 150/2s could be used to reform some 3 car sets, but it would make sense for LM to keep say for example 150003/05/07/09, as they are with 150/1 outer cars, allowing the other 150/2s to migrate to Northern who would frequently pair up 150/2s into 4 car sets, making the most of their end doors.

Whilst it seems reasonable to want to replace the 153/170 combos, does Bedford-Bletchley and Cov-Nuneaton warrant 150s as opposed to 153s? When I've been on these routes, never seemed to busy, but am not a regular user.

 

[tbtc]

well that would be more capacity than XC

A three coach 170 has more seats than a four coach Voyager IIRC...

The Norwich end of the route doesn't need anything like as much capacity as the Liverpool end; I think the EMT plan for four coaches west of Nottingham (and two coaches east) is a great idea.

 

[YorkshireBear]

bit dodgy voyagers how can they ever have thought it was alright to build em that short

 

[tbtc]

bit dodgy voyagers how can they ever have thought it was alright to build em that short

In fairness to Virgin (not something you see people say often!) this was the kind of thing other TOCs did. Midland Mainline introduced two car 170s on Derby/Nottingham - London services (even Barnsley - London in a two coach 170!)... the trend was to introduce shorter units to run more frequently (two Voyagers an hour would replace one seven coach HST/ class 47), so the total number of seats wasn't going down (by much).

However operators soon learned that they needed longer trains to meet rising demand (especially as half hourly services attracted more passengers than one hourly service). Luckily for Midland Mainline, they could buy centre-coaches for 170s (as other TOCs were still buying them), but nobody else bought any Voyagers, so Virgin couldn't easily get more coaches.

In a way there's a similar problem with 185s- long enough at first, but demand rose and (as no other operator had bought any) there was no production line to build more (plus the emissions situation)...

Here's hoping that more 172s keep being built so that additional ones (or centre coaches) can be added to the LM/ LO/ Chiltern examples, if they find demand has gone up further...

 

[MCR247]

but nobody else bought any Voyagers, so Virgin couldn't easily get more coaches.

AND the SRA had to step in.....:roll:

 

[RobShipway]

What about giving EMT the class 180's for the Liverpool - Norwich route?

 

[Pumbaa]

What about giving EMT the class 180's for the Liverpool - Norwich route?

Not a bad idea - 14 180s, 11 diagrams by my reckoning although I'm sure Kneedown could confirm. 5 car, no portion working, FC provision and can do Sprinter/MU speeds as well, and 125 down the EC from Grantham; I seem to remember that would speed the paths up too.

 

[RobShipway]

Unfortunately though, there is only 5 of them available as some are with Hull Trains and some with Grand Central unless Kingfisher can talk these companies into using the CSRE Polaris trains?

 

[NXEA!]

Not a bad idea - 14 180s, 11 diagrams by my reckoning although I'm sure Kneedown could confirm. 5 car, no portion working, FC provision and can do Sprinter/MU speeds as well, and 125 down the EC from Grantham; I seem to remember that would speed the paths up too.

Yeah I agree, its a lovely and workable idea, but one that pretty much won't happen because GC and FHT have just obtained their stock and are refreshing it to their needs. Plus even if they were persuaded to part with their 180's, theirs still the issue of replacement, and there is literally NO spare 125mph stock. Only reasonable alternative would be for 67's and Mark 3's for both companies, but that would mean 9 locos to be set aside for GC and FHT usage for 9 sets of coaching stock, and with sleeper contracts, East Coast Standby contracts, WSMR contracts, future Chiltern Contracts, possible WAG work and possibly GC themselves for the Blackpool service, their will be little or no 67's available, and it is an increasingly busy and stretched fleet, plus DBS need a few for the odd mail service and charter. I'm not even sure how many Mark 3's are left now. Can't be more than 30 I would've thought.

 

[RobShipway]

What about converting the Irish Mk3's if they are still any left?

 

[NXEA!]

What about converting the Irish Mk3's if they are still any left?

Yeah true, if there isn't quite enough coaches left. But the Mark 3's are 110 mph stock, and unless GC or FHT wanted to pay for their rebogieing to 125 mph bogies, it won't happen. 110 mph stock would lose time on the stretches of the ECML where its 125, I'm not familiar with the ECML's speeds, but I would imagine there's quite a lot of 125 stretches, and the 67's wouldn't be able to keep time I imagine, especially being limited to 100/110 mph, however they have got the acceleration to match it. (And before anybody asks why 67's are limited to 100/110 its because of their high axle loading I think and their tare on the track. See a different thread for the info! )

 

[Old Hill Bank]

It has been reported unofficially that London Midland will be retaining 150001/002/016/017 as three carriage units, and 150202/4/6/10/20/26 as two carriage units. 150016 and 150017 are the two hybrid trains that each contain a 572XX 150/2 vehicle with no 522XX partner.

I’d like to see the ten LM 153s go to EMT, to allow Northern to retain the four 156s earmarked to go to EMT, which would mean EMT gains two additional carriages over the original plan and Northern get to keep their 156s!

IMO Northern should receive 5 or 6 of the “left over” 150s, with the remainder (There’s a total of 9 “left over” 150s by my calculations) going to FGW.

The retained LM 150's could work:

Bedford- Bletchley
Coventry- Nuneaton
New Street- Rugeley

Plus maintenance and contingency spares.

This free's up 170's to increase capacity on the Hereford and Shrewsbury jobs and the 172's to do Snow Hill as planned, with the flexibility to alter diagrams around Worcester between 170/172.

SDO fitting the 170's is a MUST!!!

This would free up 153's Perhaps????

 

[NXEA!]

The retained LM 150's could work:

Bedford- Bletchley
Coventry- Nuneaton
New Street- Rugeley

Plus maintenance and contingency spares.

This free's up 170's to increase capacity on the Hereford and Shrewsbury jobs and the 172's to do Snow Hill as planned, with the flexibility to alter diagrams around Worcester between 170/172.

SDO fitting the 170's is a MUST!!!

This would free up 153's Perhaps????

I think the 153's were always going to be released anyway, as they're younger, keeping the older 150's means they get new stock later on. There's a couple of 153 workings out of Snow Hill, plus the Rugeley workings, so yeah, I think the rest of the 153 fleet could be made surplus with some diagram tweaking. So it looks like 7 150's and 8 153's are being made available. I do think EMT and FGW should get most of these; they need a lot of extra capacity. And if Northern were to get a couple of the 150's like 3 or 4 this could release a couple of 156's to EMT. Split the 153's between FGW and EMT; bobs your uncle.

 

[Kneedown]

Split the 153's between FGW and EMT; bobs your uncle.

We've got far too many of those heaps of S**** as it is thank you very much.
Cascade em to Loom's is what i say!

 

[northwichcat]

A three coach 170 has more seats than a four coach Voyager IIRC...

The Norwich end of the route doesn't need anything like as much capacity as the Liverpool end; I think the EMT plan for four coaches west of Nottingham (and two coaches east) is a great idea.

From my experience overcrowding on Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester and Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds is worst than on XC's Voyagers.

EMT are doing the best they can with the resources. Ideally the Liverpool-Norwich service should have more table seats, more luggage space and first class seating to suit long distance travellers. If they ordered new 2 and 3 car trains meeting those requirements to run 2 car east of Nottingham and 5 car west it wouldn't make 5 car look like overkill in the off-peak periods.

 

[MCR247]

SDO fitting the 170's is a MUST!!!

They all are apart from /1s?

 

[trains2064]

Yes selective door opening is included. This will help LM with its unit diagrams although the are plans to get all platform on the Snow Hill lines to 6 car lengths which will be a great improvement and could also lead to more 172's being ordered.

 

[YorkshireBear]

From my experience overcrowding on Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester and Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds is worst than on XC's Voyagers.

EMT are doing the best they can with the resources. Ideally the Liverpool-Norwich service should have more table seats, more luggage space and first class seating to suit long distance travellers. If they ordered new 2 and 3 car trains meeting those requirements to run 2 car east of Nottingham and 5 car west it wouldn't make 5 car look like overkill in the off-peak periods.

I think to be safe id say 3 car east 5 car west.... so add remove to car at nottingham..... but yeah i agree with that...

XC well it depends when you get them sometimes i have no problems sometimes its atrocious... one fo two rarely inbetween

 

[TheBigD]

They all are apart from /1s?

They have a different version which is not used.

 

[krus_aragon]

I like your idea for substituting Pacers for 153s, although this would only really be relevant for Northern services and Wales, as other areas where 153s operate are devoid of Pacers.

Some of the 153-operated routes in Mid and West Wales (Swansea-Pembroke Dock, Swansea-Shrewsbury via Heart of Wales) are far too long, and with too much jointed track to hand over to pacers. I've had the experience of pacers on both routes despite this!

Its a good idea for those areas Ive named though, allowing 153s to be added to 155 and 156 units to form three carriage trains.

That's something that doesn't happen very often here (notwithstanding the lack of 155 and 156 units). They're paired up together to make a two-car unit sometimes, but I can only remember them linked to other units for ECS workings.

 

[jopsuk]

I appreciate there's 51 three car 185s versus a mix of 41 two and three car 158s and 159s, but could, if electrification happened a bit sooner, the diesel desiros be sent to SWT with their diesel units sent north?

Especially if they were refitted with 450/444 style cab ends, it would seem a good home for them.

It's almost a sensible idea. Which of course means that it is ridiculous and will never be considered

 

[MCR247]

I appreciate there's 51 three car 185s versus a mix of 41 two and three car 158s and 159s, but could, if electrification happened a bit sooner, the diesel desiros be sent to SWT with their diesel units sent north?

Especially if they were refitted with 450/444 style cab ends, it would seem a good home for them.

It's almost a sensible idea. Which of course means that it is ridiculous and will never be considered

Bit of a waste of units? Surely a 3 car 185 with First Class would be a waste on Romsey - Salisbury?

 

[northwichcat]

I appreciate there's 51 three car 185s versus a mix of 41 two and three car 158s and 159s, but could, if electrification happened a bit sooner, the diesel desiros be sent to SWT with their diesel units sent north?

How would that work then?

185s released from Manchester to Scotland are set to be used to reinstate the 2 hourly Manchester Airport to Windermere service that was axed by DfT just so that Virgin could have more Voyagers for VHF.

185s released from Manchester Airport to Blackpool will provide long overdue strengthening to North TPE services.

TransPennine Express were due to get 60 3 carriage trains which would be strengthened to 4 carriages. They really do need at least the 240 carriages they were promised - the 171 they have currently are grossly inadequate. And you're proposing TPE's 171 diesel carriages are reduced to 101*? You could probably get a job at DfT with that proposal!

* The total number of SWT 158 and 159 carriages.

 

[swt_passenger]

Bit of a waste of units? Surely a 3 car 185 with First Class would be a waste on Romsey - Salisbury?

I expect he's thinking that Exeter - Waterloo ought to be a suitable route in terms of line speed and route availability for 185s, with ex SWT 158s and 159s being more use on regional routes that already use the class.

But unless modified the lack of gangways wouldn't go down well with SWT - that's one of the main reasons they traded in 170s for 158s in the first place.

 

[MCR247]

But he wants all of the 158s and 159s, which would mean the 185s would have to the figure of 6 runs

 

[swt_passenger]

101 [...] The total number of SWT 158 and 159 carriages.

... is really 112.

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But he wants all of the 158s and 159s, which would mean the 185s would have to the figure of 6 runs

Well at least it wouldn't take so long for people to get on and off!

First Class wouldn't be a problem though - it's what we're used to already on the Salisbury 6, although it never gets used AFAICS...

My suggestion would be to use 185s on Cardiff - Portsmouth, but unfortunately that means they'd be stuck with three car capacity, whereas 2x2.158 is probably a better option for that route.

Interesting discussion though, it really shows that future use is quite inflexible, doubling up non electrified TPE routes is probably safest all round - until the missing links between Manchester, Leeds and York also get wired up...

 

[northwichcat]

until the missing links between Manchester, Leeds and York also get wired up...

That isn't an approved plan or a preferred future option and those parts in themselves would only switch one service: Manchester Airport to Newcastle. Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough, Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester to Hull still wouldn't be electrified routes.