This DMU cascade - what is actually going on?

[sprinterguy]

I thought the Dft had put a dampener on electrification as far as Bristol ??

To a lesser extent than electrification to Swansea, so the Bristol electrification should be included in the map above as "Electrification delayed", even if it would only be a short spur off the route illustrated.

 

[moonrakerz]

If that's the case then unless the the 2 or 3 car units reguarly leave people on the platform the 180s wouldn't be a good choice as the capacity is needed more elsewhere.

I think the plan is to put refurbished 165s on Cardiff-Portsmouth after electrification.

I don't think the 2/3 car units regularly leave people on the platform now - not since they (FGW) got such appalling publicity (and passengers held a fare strike) and they tagged a few 153s and the like onto them in the busy periods.

165s eh ! 5 abreast, 2/3 cars - can't wait ! (Of course, we were going to get brand new 172s !!)

 

[TEW]

The reintroduction of 3 carriage 158s on to all Portsmouth-Cardiffs is the main reason that they aren't so busy any more. All of them are booked for at least 3 carriages now and it has become less common for 2 carriage services but it does still happen. If the 165s were introduced I think they'd be refurbished to a suitable standard. Just think yourselves lucky, Portsmouth-Cardiff services aren't suffering from the new 150/1s with 2+3 seating which is much worse than 165 seating.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think the 2/3 car units regularly leave people on the platform now - not since they (FGW) got such appalling publicity (and passengers held a fare strike) and they tagged a few 153s and the like onto them in the busy periods.

165s eh ! 5 abreast, 2/3 cars - can't wait ! (Of course, we were going to get brand new 172s !!)

Maybe you should see TPE services then. They also were supposed to get 172s and their busy services can leave quite a significant number of people unable to board. I was one of about 30-40 people unable to board the the 1606 Newcastle to Manchester Airport at Leeds one night. While the previous franchise holder (ATN) had many late running trains, cancellations and strike days, as well as providing internally flithy 158s on 4 hour journeys and even ATN could get overcrowded services on transpennine routes. So Northerners must be either less fussy or more reliant on train services or both.

 

[TEW]

TPE's brand new 185s are a world away from FGWs fleet of Class 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff services which also suffer terribly from overcrowding. They are better now that each train is at least 3 carriages but still very overcrowded at times.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE's brand new 185s are a world away from FGWs fleet of Class 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff services which also suffer terribly from overcrowding. They are better now that each train is at least 3 carriages but still very overcrowded at times.

3 car 158 = more seats than a 3 car 185 or a 2 car 170. On TPE overcrowding at off-peak times is commonplace on some services and at peak times it's not overcrowding it's a new world record attempt each day of how many people can you get on the one train.

The seating on most 158s is much better for long distance services compared to the 185s where it's very much like some of the commuter Desiro services in the South East operated by SWT and LM.

 

[MCR247]

On my ALR, I got an off-peak MIA-NCL from Piccadilly, or at least I was supposed to. But I couldn't phyiscally squeeze onto the train, never mind about First Class Ended up getting a Hull one instead

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Everyone thinks they get a bad deal on there local line, guess what it's true!!!!!!
It does not matter if its 3 x158, 5 x 180, lm 150 2+3 seating, GW 150 2+2, new 172's, pacer sh@@ or whatever we all need more!!!

Let's not fall out, but share knowledge and have an intelligent debate guys!

 

[387star]

I remember those SWT 170s having exceptionally comfortable seats I hope they have remained that way with TPE!

 

[Pumbaa]

Yep - still same seats re-upholstered. All 170s and 171s have the same seat as far as I know (except old FC in MML units)

 

[tbtc]

I remember those SWT 170s having exceptionally comfortable seats I hope they have remained that way with TPE!

I don't know - I can never get a seat when a TPE 170 turns up in place of a longer train

 

[387star]

Apart from Southern's astro turf


I think CrossCountry have fitted new seats since refurbishment and I hear legroom is dreadful. I am assuming it is on a par with electrostar seats at the ends of 377s which for some reason have less leg room than the standard seat. One has to sit bolt upright.

 

[Pumbaa]

2207 ex MAN comes from Hull I think, usually a 2x170 although more commonly becoming 185 again.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think CrossCountry have fitted new seats since refurbishment and I hear legroom is dreadful.

I'm not sure, all the seats seem to be in that Virgin blue and red finish and seemed to be pretty similar to the seats put into Pendos and Virgin 221s. I would say there has been no change to the seating in XC Voyagers.

Edit: Ignore the above, my reading comprehension was off yesterday

 

[MCR247]

He means 170s

 

[ainsworth74]

He means 170s

Ahh yes, indeed he does

 

[387star]

It's okay!

 

[moonrakerz]

TPE's brand new 185s are a world away from FGWs fleet of Class 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff services which also suffer terribly from overcrowding.

....and of course where did the hand-me-down 158s used on the Portsmouth-Cardiff services come from ??

They are better now that each train is at least 3 carriages .................

Not always !

 

[Rhydgaled]

is their many places where 1 car are needed or are they best as add ons now.... i dont know much of the rural lines outside yorkshire if anyone could shed some light for me

Some might be useful to add services on the Heart Of Wales line, although the increased frequency might push demand up to the point where extra coaches are required.

Maybe when crossrail free's up some class 166's if they can be cleared to work the Cardiff - Portsmouth service could some class 158's be re-formed back into 2 carriage sets and sent to east midlands trains?

If FGW ever frees up some of their 158s I'd like to see them run the Portsmouth - Cardiffs with 2x 2-car 158s, allowing 2 coaches to continue west to Fishguard via the Swansea District Line (although on current timetables I think a 15min wait would be needed at Cardiff to continue west after spliting, so it might not be worth cutting that change of trains).

 

[MCR247]

If FGW ever frees up some of their 158s I'd like to see them run the Portsmouth - Cardiffs with 2x 2-car 158s, allowing 2 coaches to continue west to Fishguard via the Swansea District Line (although on current timetables I think a 15min wait would be needed at Cardiff to continue west after spliting, so it might not be worth cutting that change of trains).

I rather see them used in other places, not making new services

 

[tbtc]

I rather see them used in other places, not making new services

Agreed. When people can't get seats on peak/off-peak services on several lines, why waste units increasing frequency on other routes or creating new services?

 

[RobShipway]

Some might be useful to add services on the Heart Of Wales line, although the increased frequency might push demand up to the point where extra coaches are required.

If FGW ever frees up some of their 158s I'd like to see them run the Portsmouth - Cardiffs with 2x 2-car 158s, allowing 2 coaches to continue west to Fishguard via the Swansea District Line (although on current timetables I think a 15min wait would be needed at Cardiff to continue west after spliting, so it might not be worth cutting that change of trains).

I think you would be better to replace the class 158's with class 172 three cars than have the class 166 trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed. When people can't get seats on peak/off-peak services on several lines, why waste units increasing frequency on other routes or creating new services?

You could in theory create a new service or service extension which helps an already overcrowded service. For example, there are problems for people travelling between Warrington and Crewe so LM running Warrington-Crewe every hour would help towards that, even though it's a 'new' service.

 

[tbtc]

You could in theory create a new service or service extension which helps an already overcrowded service. For example, there are problems for people travelling between Warrington and Crewe so LM running Warrington-Crewe every hour would help towards that, even though it's a 'new' service.

True, but more services means crowded rails - which causes more problems... one lesson from Operation Princess is that Longer Trains are more reliable than Frequent Short Trains.

I'd hope that the DMU cascade means we'll get longer trains (150s beefed up to three or four coaches, Pacers replacing single 153s, 153s slotted onto 155/156s), rather than trying to squeeze more (short) services through congested junctions.

 

[northwichcat]

Longer Trains are more reliable than Frequent Short Trains.

True, provided it isn't 142s working in multiple, which always seem to get delayed due to doors jamming. However, less services with more carriages means a net reduction in total passengers over double the frequency with half the capacity per service.

 

[tbtc]

True, provided it isn't 142s working in multiple, which always seem to get delayed due to doors jamming. However, less services with more carriages means a net reduction in total passengers over double the frequency with half the capacity per service.

This is a real headache with Pacers - the lack of corridor connection - if they could be lenghened to six coach length then they could be used for bulk capacity on some routes (six coach Pacer being about as long as a four coach 150)

I appreciate that a more frequent service would attract more people in the short term, but in the case of Operation Princess it made for an unreliable service which turned people away from the railway. Better to keep things reliable rather than squeezing more trains through bottlenecks (one reason I'd like to have a "minimum length" for services at certain key junctions/ pressure points)

 

[DarloRich]

Are LM giving up thier 153's? We get one every day on the Bedford-Bletchley. Other unit is a 150.

The 153 is never full so a 150 is almost empty

 

[tbtc]

Are LM giving up thier 153's? We get one every day on the Bedford-Bletchley. Other unit is a 150.

The 153 is never full so a 150 is almost empty

We could give you some Pacers in that case

 

[DarloRich]

No - We have enougth of those in Darlo - I will keep a Sprinter for my 2 second journey from Fenny to Bletchley thank you very much!

Anyway the cockneys down here would revolt if presented with a 142/143/144

 

[northwichcat]

This is a real headache with Pacers - the lack of corridor connection - if they could be lenghened to six coach length then they could be used for bulk capacity on some routes (six coach Pacer being about as long as a four coach 150)

They can be used in 6 car formation. However, the guards have enough trouble getting doors open and closed in 4 car formation nevermind 6 car.