The HST Era continues!

[starrymarkb]

(Sure, to the best of my knowledge nobody has updated an early 737 to the latest standard, but all of the new components and parts COULD be stuffed inside an old 737 frame if someone wanted.)

Alas no - the bigger CFM56 engines have actually required a stretch to the fuselage to balance them out in addition to the wing re-enforcement.

Commonallity is big in the aircraft industry. Hence the 737 has killed off the newer 757 as it's possible to cover the whole 150-250 seat range with the same components (just stretching as required). IIRC the 737-900 is larger then the original big jet, the 707

 

[Shaggy]

Regarding the HSTs on routes inside Scotland, I used to live just outside Dundee as a schoolboy and when visiting my siblings in Edinburgh I would always (unless I had absolutely no other choice) take the HST over a 170 or 158 as it was before.

I did this for two reasons.

Firstly, being a far bigger train meant that there would be far more space and even at a peak time I would pretty much be guaranteed a decent seat. The amount of times I would get on even a 4-car 158 and I would be crammed into the vestibule.

Secondly, anyone that knows the route between Dundee and Edinburgh know that travelling on an HST gave excellent opportunities to "hang out of the window" when going over either of the two bridges. It's been almost a decade since I've last done that but I can still remember the thrill of it!

Now living on the edge of the West Country, I commute into Paddington on a FGW HST every day and it's a sheer delight. It may be an old train but the interior is both modern and spacious. The only gripe people may have is the down time at each station due to the slam-doors (especially when some idiot doesn't shut the door behind him meaning the guard has to walk all the way up the platform to shut it...) but to me, hearing that sound of the door slamming shut and with the ability to "hang out of the window" every day, commuting doesn't get much better!

 

[scotsman]

Secondly, anyone that knows the route between Dundee and Edinburgh know that travelling on an HST gave excellent opportunities to "hang out of the window" when going over either of the two bridges. It's been almost a decade since I've last done that but I can still remember the thrill of it!

I take HSTs whenever I can, and I have to say it's getting fairly dangerous to hang out the window on the Forth Bridge. Because of all the works on the bridge, there's reduced clearance between the train and the bridge - very easy to bang your head if you aren't careful.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

I haven't read the whole thread (lacking of time this week and next), but if you want to see one running after its working life.....

Click on my sig.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

Re: The B737 'Classics' with the CFM-56 engined examples, if, as you say the 737-200 fuselage needed to be stretched to balance out the CFM-56 engines, how do you explain the B737-500 which shares exactly the same fuselage as the B737-200, what was expanded on the CFM models was an extension to the Nose Landing Gear strut to raise the engines a bit further up from the ground to reduce FOD risk, and that the generators on the CFM-56 were moved from underneath the engine to the sides, resulting in the rather odd flattened shape to the nacelles. (Also to mitigate FOD).

Back to trains, I absolutely love HST's, most journeys I have made back to Newcastle from London so far have been on HST's rather than 91/Mk4's and I found the ride to be so much smoother in the Mk3, so with a further life extension the coaches could last well beyond the power cars, and in future be hauled by a new generation of Electro-Diesel or full Electric loco.

319's aren't too bad, while it would be nice to have interiors to the level of refurb offered on an SWT/Southern 455, the fact that the units are expected to be replaced (hopefully) in the next 5 years and then receive a full refurbishment for GWML and Northern means that it was probably a more cost-effective job to do what has been done, and they are still very comfortable to sit in I find! Shame they get beat up so badly and graffitied inside, but thats societies problem and not the railway really lol!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . most journeys I have made back to Newcastle from London so far have been on HST's rather than 91/Mk4's and I found the ride to be so much smoother in the Mk3

Hmmm, my experience is the opposite!
I prefer the space and ambience inside an EC HST over Mk4 set, but the suspension and consequent smoothness of passenger compartments appears to be better on the Mk4. Ask the catering crew who work both (and who have to pick up the pieces).

 

[cyclebytrain]

Re: The B737 'Classics' with the CFM-56 engined examples, if, as you say the 737-200 fuselage needed to be stretched to balance out the CFM-56 engines, how do you explain the B737-500 which shares exactly the same fuselage as the B737-200, what was expanded on the CFM models was an extension to the Nose Landing Gear strut to raise the engines a bit further up from the ground to reduce FOD risk, and that the generators on the CFM-56 were moved from underneath the engine to the sides, resulting in the rather odd flattened shape to the nacelles. (Also to mitigate FOD).

The fuselages are not the same.
From Boeing D6-58325-6:

Length of Boeing 737-500 fuse: 97ft 9"
Length of Boeing 737-200 fuse: 96ft 11"

Bogie-Bogie 737-500: 36ft 4"
Bogie-Bogie 737-200: 37ft 4"

I'm not quite certain what is meant by stretching the fuse to "balance out" the engines; however I can't see any interpretation that would be right.

Also the triangular shape of the engines is not because of FOD considerations -if you think about it you'll see that the lowest point of fan disc hasn't changed; but the ancillaries are not beneath it. The shape is to get clearance on runway lighting. And now back to trains

 

[Kneedown]

I'm not quite certain what is meant by stretching the fuse to "balance out" the engines; however I can't see any interpretation that would be right.

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, or even an expert, but i seem to remember that aircraft are "stretched" by inserting extra sections in the fuselage. One presumes this would have to be done both fore and aft of the centre of gravity to maintain the balance. Could this be what it means?

 

[starrymarkb]

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, or even an expert, but i seem to remember that aircraft are "stretched" by inserting extra sections in the fuselage. One presumes this would have to be done both fore and aft of the centre of gravity to maintain the balance. Could this be what it means?

Pretty much what I ment - the tail struture has been beefed up aswell

 

[jon0844]

It's a stupid and contradictory policy. The idea behind it is that it reduces the risk of fraud, as there's no way to check if there are funds in the card's account before taking the payment. (Despite that ticket machines onboard work the same way, and the majority of payments go through without checking the funds anyway)

They can't have a credit card terminal that can send a few bytes of data over a GPRS/3G connection to authorise transactions? Or if the trains have Wi-Fi, use the Internet?

The cost of that readily available equipment over the loss of revenue from asking people to pay cash (and from what is suggested here, the correct money if the float is too small to offer change) means they may as well not sell anything.

Oh wait - that reminds me of what Orange did when they wanted to axe some of their services. They used to offer two services called Wildfire (an interactive voicemail service) and a second line. They killed Wildfire by making it near impossible to activate it or get support for it - so they could then say that demand had fallen (it had, nobody knew about it) and then quietly phased it out. Now they're doing the same with the second line service (I bet no new customers even know what it is).

So, get rid of card payments.. make it hard to pay with cash. Bingo; in the future, you say that the shop is not making enough money to remain....

 

[LE Greys]

Alas no - the bigger CFM56 engines have actually required a stretch to the fuselage to balance them out in addition to the wing re-enforcement.

Commonallity is big in the aircraft industry. Hence the 737 has killed off the newer 757 as it's possible to cover the whole 150-250 seat range with the same components (just stretching as required). IIRC the 737-900 is larger then the original big jet, the 707

Not sure about that, but it's certainly larger than the shorter-range 720. However, the 707 is still going in military service (if you're waiting at Ely, you might see one flying into Lakenheath that once wore PanAm colours). Refitted versions use CFM56s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Back to trains, I absolutely love HST's, most journeys I have made back to Newcastle from London so far have been on HST's rather than 91/Mk4's and I found the ride to be so much smoother in the Mk3, so with a further life extension the coaches could last well beyond the power cars, and in future be hauled by a new generation of Electro-Diesel or full Electric loco.

That is certainly possible, especially the loco-hauled, sleeper and Royal versions. The only real way to replace them would be with new coaches, possibly converted MkIVs but eventually something completely new. HST trailers would require conversion before they can use conventional ETS unless they run with generator cars. However some of the current Amtrak stock dates back as far as the earliest MkIIs, although they were air-con from the start.

I have to wonder about preservation. How on Earth are the 125 Group (or whoever) going to keep an HST set operable and main line worthy? Where there's a will, there's a way, but it is going to take a lot of money and effort.

 

[route:oxford]

Oh wait - that reminds me of what Orange did when they wanted to axe some of their services. They used to offer two services called Wildfire (an interactive voicemail service) and a second line. They killed Wildfire by making it near impossible to activate it or get support for it - so they could then say that demand had fallen (it had, nobody knew about it) and then quietly phased it out. Now they're doing the same with the second line service (I bet no new customers even know what it is).

They gave us one months notice, and there was a campaign, but it was with great sadness the last time I said...

"Goodbye Wildfire"
and she replied in her usual friendly way.
"Thank you, Goodbye".

:cry:

I thought for a moment that she had been brought back to life when HTC launched their new "Wildfire" phone recently - but it's just happens to be the name of the phone and has nothing to do with the old service.

 

[jon0844]

I beta tested Wildfire. Really good service and could have easily been updated for many things like social networking, but Orange just didn't care (and I think they even bought the company that produced it - from the US or Canada!).

 

[badger1badger]

Did I once hear of HST's over the Settle Carlisle Line - would it work would they get up the gradient ??

paul

 

[Failed Unit]

Did I once hear of HST's over the Settle Carlisle Line - would it work would they get up the gradient ??

paul

Isn't the steepest gradient in the UK Lickley (near Bromsgrove if I have mis-spelt it)?

They managed that for many years, although they would need help if they were on reduced power!

 

[starrymarkb]

The S&C was built with a max gradient of 1 in 100

In Devon HST's cope with up to 1 in 37

 

[sprinterguy]

Yeah the steepest main line gradient in the UK is the Lickey incline, at 1 in 37, similar to the Devon banks. The HSTs have never had any problems taking on the Lickey or the Devon Banks (unless operating on one power car, where assistance can be needed), so they have no problems on the S&C: The long drag isn't THAT steep! If the regular 3,000hp class 66s hauling 2000 tonne coal trains handle the S&C gradients with no problems then a lightweight 2+8 HST set with 5,000hp available is not going to feel any adverse effects.

It's completely feasible that HSTs have operated on the S&C in the past, most likely Crosscountry sets diverted when the WCML is closed.

 

[Techniquest]

They have operated over it in the past, for certain. Plenty of evidence about the Internet!

Also, HSTs do not have 5,000hp at their disposal. Each power car has a maximum output of 2,250hp, so 4,500hp in total. Of course, if we took Power At Rail into account, ETS provision and so forth, the figures would again be different!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't the steepest gradient in the UK Lickley (near Bromsgrove if I have mis-spelt it)?

They managed that for many years, although they would need help if they were on reduced power!

Agreed with the others, the Lickey Incline is the steepest on the mainline.

Just replying to add that if a set is on one power car, it is also banned from the route through Kidderminster, as the climb up Old Hill bank is something like 1 in 50.

 

[sprinterguy]

They have operated over it in the past, for certain. Plenty of evidence about the Internet!

Also, HSTs do not have 5,000hp at their disposal. Each power car has a maximum output of 2,250hp, so 4,500hp in total. Of course, if we took Power At Rail into account, ETS provision and so forth, the figures would again be different!

Oh yeah, you're right about the 4,500hp. I was thinking 2,500hp per powercar for some reason, oops.

 

[43021HST]

I wonder how long the chasis will hold out before the metal fractures and rusts and collapses.

 

[cyclebytrain]

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, or even an expert, but i seem to remember that aircraft are "stretched" by inserting extra sections in the fuselage. One presumes this would have to be done both fore and aft of the centre of gravity to maintain the balance. Could this be what it means?

Yes, aircraft are stretched by adding plug sections into the fuse. But I'd be worried if Boeing needed to do that to sort a trim issue. Changing your fuse length to sort trim issues is kind of desperation territory -you should have sized your fuse based on your payload requirements.

Back to trains, it seems to me that the cheapest (stop gap) solution is going to be off the shelf AC EMUs currently in production and cascading current D(*)MUs and LHCS that could be diesel hauled, which I think means Desiros (380/350), Electrostars (379/377), 395s or Pendolinos (390). From that list, I think only Pendolinos have intercity doors and 125mph speeds.

So Pendolinos to replace the 221s on the WCML (makes a lot of sense from many other perspectives anyway), replace 91s+MK4s with Pendolinos on the ECML and cascade both to the GWML (this gives you accessible door trains + retention toilets on both the MML and the GWML -exemptions to requirements are bound to be easier if it's a partial fleet that is "being replaced by compliant vehicles"). Then you have the option of keeping a reduced HST fleet running long enough for a government to decide if electrification is still a good idea.

 

[Failed Unit]

Please don't let the pendo one ecml. Our trains are very nice already and don't deserve them horrible things!

 

[Geezertronic]

Please don't let the pendo one ecml. Our trains are very nice already and don't deserve them horrible things!

Nothing wrong with them

 

[Aictos]

Nothing wrong with them

To a certain extend, however in the eyes of the DfT it's just a train which gets passengers from A to B regardless of what train is actually used.

 

[Failed Unit]

Nothing wrong with them

Why would you want a tilt profiled train on a line without the need for it with all the shortcomings it brings such as a cramped interior and small windows. With what we have in the uk suitable for 125mph running give me a 395 over a 390 anyday! But would rather have a Mk4 over both. Much better passenger environment.

 

[asylumxl]

Much better passenger environment for anal rail entusiasts. I'd like to make people aware that post refurb, Mallard seats do not always align with windows. Also, I like my knees to not be wedged into the chair infront like in the Mallard refurbishment.

 

[Failed Unit]

Much better passenger environment for anal rail entusiasts. I'd like to make people aware that post refurb, Mallard seats do not always align with windows. Also, I like my knees to not be wedged into the chair infront like in the Mallard refurbishment.

Were did the pendo appear in the passenger focus survey of ic stock in preparation for iep? Oh yes bottom. We must learn from these mistakes was quoted. Seating pitch can be altered. The cramped enviroment of the pendo caused by the tilt profile can't. Just because I don't like the pendo doesn't make me anal. If it did I would hate the 395 because it is new as well. No train lines up with all windows. The passenger enviroment is much better on a mk4 simple and backed up by surveys.

 

[LE Greys]

Why would you want a tilt profiled train on a line without the need for it with all the shortcomings it brings such as a cramped interior and small windows. With what we have in the uk suitable for 125mph running give me a 395 over a 390 anyday! But would rather have a Mk4 over both. Much better passenger environment.

Not sure if you've ever noticed the sloped-in sides of a MkIV. The cross-section is based on an APT trailer. They're actually narrower at the top than Pendys, and probably lower, but still manage to have big windows and seemingly more space.

However, what you should really ask is 'Why have we had tilt-profile trains for nineteen years without ever retrofitting them?' Even a 4-degree passive tilt would make the Hatfield curves a bit more comfortable.

 

[daikilo]

I wonder how long the chasis will hold out before the metal fractures and rusts and collapses.

There are methods to predict fatigue impacts on maintenance programmes, including the impact of e.g. corrosion.

Personally, I suggest that if the last Valenta-powered HSTs are now being re-engined to MTU it is because soemone has decided they potentially have a few decades of service before them. And I wouldn't be surprised if the early conversions had an engine upgrade before they disappear.

 

[Geezertronic]

Were did the pendo appear in the passenger focus survey of ic stock in preparation for iep? Oh yes bottom. We must learn from these mistakes was quoted. Seating pitch can be altered. The cramped enviroment of the pendo caused by the tilt profile can't. Just because I don't like the pendo doesn't make me anal. If it did I would hate the 395 because it is new as well. No train lines up with all windows. The passenger enviroment is much better on a mk4 simple and backed up by surveys.

I have not travelled on the 390s as much as last year but I've certainly racked up a decent mileage from BHI-EUS and return and I have to disagree with the survey. I'm not saying there are not issues with the train but I've never been bothered by travelling in a restricted view seat, never experienced a failed hand-dryer or the toilet smell, and never feel cramped in the Standard Class seats. The main nark I have is inconsiderate passengers who disrespect the Quiet Coach (which is where you'll find me).