Another reason why frieght should be on the railways

[crewmeal]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8574600.stm

John Prescott was always an avid fan of freight going back on the rail network. For once he was right

 

[flymo]

I saw this video on Sky News earlier today and simply watched with disbelief. The driver of the truck apparently had no idea the car (was it a Clio?) was there.

The woman in the car was unhurt apparently but I still cannot understand how she got there in the first place.

Unbelievable.

 

[GB]

I personally believe the video is a fake, but Ill wait to be proved wrong.

 

[Geezertronic]

I personally believe the video is a fake, but Ill wait to be proved wrong.

I also believe that there is something iffy about this. If there was no action taken against the lorry driver, then something is definitely wrong. If real, this is at least careless driving

 

[Donny Dave]

I'm not going to speculate on how the car managed to attach itself to the front of the lorry, as there are several possibilities.

However, in defence of the lorry driver (seeing as the bonnet of the car was on the drivers side of the lorry), he probably wouldn't have seen the car was there. Looking down from the driving seat of a lorry, visibilty directly in front of him is extremely limited in the 6-8 feet ahead of the cab. Even in a 7.5 ton lorry, you can't see the road for about 3-5 feet ahead. However, that's the only defending I can do. As I said, I'm not going to speculate on how the car got there.

As for getting freight back onto rail, I agree, It can only be a good thing. However, how do you accomodate wagonload freight going to different destinations?

In that video, the lorry would be going to several different garages (possibly in different towns), so that sort of traffic can't really go by rail. Most of the freight that arrives at ports such at Immingham, isn't even a full load for a lorry either, it's known as groupage. (This is the type of loads I used to deliver). What happens, is that factories and companies in another country have perhaps 3 or 4 pallets to send to somewhere in the UK. Obviously, this isn't cost effective to send on 1 lorry. Because of that, they use a freight fowarding company, such as Schenker. They gather loads for the UK from various places in that country, load them into the own trailers for shipping to the UK, where loads are then organised for deliveries through out the UK. The same thing happens in reverse. Another aspect of the nature of thus work, is that it is very sporadic. For example, you can have several days where the majority of the deliveries and collections are in 1 part of the country, then go for a week, with very little to/from that part of the country. As an example of this type of work, here's what a typical day looked like for me.

Deliveries in Middlesborough, Washington and Morpeth, totalling 14 pallets and 3.6 tons in weight. I also had collections in Alnmouth, Hexham, Peterlee and Harrogate totalling 10 pallets, but weighing 4 tons.

Once again, how would this type of freight be accomodated on the railway?

 

[WatcherZero]

Their reinvestigating because he claimed he braked immediatley whereas the video (seems) to show that wasnt the case.

 

[chuffchuff]

Makes a change to see one where it's the car drivers fault, usually it's
the drivers of left hookers pulling out and punting the car into the
central reservation, because the car is in the blind spot by the passenger
side door to about 10ft in front

 

[Old Timer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8574600.stmJohn Prescott was always an avid fan of freight going back on the rail network. For once he was right

He was a key member of the Labour Government that withdrew the Section 8 Grants (as soon as it gained power) which did so much to attract investment into railheads under the previous Conservative Governments.

He was also a key member when decisions were taken to favour road over rail.

Typical hypocritical Labour stance.

 

[CosherB]

Makes a change to see one where it's the car drivers fault, usually it's
the drivers of left hookers pulling out and punting the car into the
central reservation, because the car is in the blind spot by the passenger
side door to about 10ft in front

I saw an accident exactly like this, and it's the lorry driver's fault, not the car driver's.

It was on the M6 north of Birmingham. Left hand drive forighn lorry in inside lane, car in middle lane very slowly overtaking the lorry. Just as the back of the car came level with the front of the lorry, the lorry pulled out into the middle lane to overtake another lorry. This pushed the back end of the car sharply to the right, causing it to turn sharp left and become embedded under the front of the lorry. there was a shower of broken window glass and rubber smoke pouring from the tyres.

I witnessed this from the outside lane and slowed to remain behind the accident. The lorry stopped, and the (uninjured, it seems) woman driver jumped out of the drivers door screaming and yelling at the lorry driver. If there'd been anyone in the passenger seat, they'd have been seriously injured at least.

This is a very common motorway accident scenario. It is caused by LHD trucks not having mirrors that show traffic immediately to their right. UK trucks going abroad have to have such mirrors, but foreign trucks coming here don't. John Presott did nothing about that when he was in power!

I have heard of several of these accidents, including two aquaintances of mine. All were women. Mabe women drivers 'hang around' too long alongside trucks when overtaking them. Me? I hang back 'till I can squirt quickly past!

 

[Domeyhead]

I'm not going to speculate on how the car managed to attach itself to the front of the lorry, as there are several possibilities.

However, in defence of the lorry driver (seeing as the bonnet of the car was on the drivers side of the lorry), he probably wouldn't have seen the car was there. Looking down from the driving seat of a lorry, visibilty directly in front of him is extremely limited in the 6-8 feet ahead of the cab. Even in a 7.5 ton lorry, you can't see the road for about 3-5 feet ahead. However, that's the only defending I can do. As I said, I'm not going to speculate on how the car got there.

As for getting freight back onto rail, I agree, It can only be a good thing. However, how do you accomodate wagonload freight going to different destinations?

In that video, the lorry would be going to several different garages (possibly in different towns), so that sort of traffic can't really go by rail. Most of the freight that arrives at ports such at Immingham, isn't even a full load for a lorry either, it's known as groupage. (This is the type of loads I used to deliver). What happens, is that factories and companies in another country have perhaps 3 or 4 pallets to send to somewhere in the UK. Obviously, this isn't cost effective to send on 1 lorry. Because of that, they use a freight fowarding company, such as Schenker. They gather loads for the UK from various places in that country, load them into the own trailers for shipping to the UK, where loads are then organised for deliveries through out the UK. The same thing happens in reverse. Another aspect of the nature of thus work, is that it is very sporadic. For example, you can have several days where the majority of the deliveries and collections are in 1 part of the country, then go for a week, with very little to/from that part of the country. As an example of this type of work, here's what a typical day looked like for me.

Deliveries in Middlesborough, Washington and Morpeth, totalling 14 pallets and 3.6 tons in weight. I also had collections in Alnmouth, Hexham, Peterlee and Harrogate totalling 10 pallets, but weighing 4 tons.

Once again, how would this type of freight be accomodated on the railway?

Very good explanation of why wagonload freight was doomed, and can never return, much though it pains me to say it. I miss the pick up goods and the country station goods yard more than any other aspect of the old railway but only from a nostaligic perspective. David illustrates perfectly why it could never compete economically with the flexibility of the lorry.

 

[Withered Arm]

Most freight should be on rail, set up regional road rail interchanges,take all these large lorries off the roads, with sensible planning and realistic pricing it would work, it just needs people with vision,

 

[Oswyntail]

According to this report on the local BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/8579523.stm)
"A police spokesperson said an investigation into the incident had been re-opened after it was initially dealt with as a damage only collision. "
Well that's all right then. Damage only!

 

[Kernowfem]

Just seen an advertisment for GMTV, the lady driver in question is putting in an appearence on tomorrows show....

 

[daikilo]

I saw this video on Sky News earlier today and simply watched with disbelief. The driver of the truck apparently had no idea the car (was it a Clio?) was there.

The woman in the car was unhurt apparently but I still cannot understand how she got there in the first place.

Unbelievable.

Well, I can imagine how she got there (such as she changed lanes ahead of the lorry) Why the car shows no obvious signs of damage is interesting. How the lorry driver did not realise imediately is less obvious. How the combination then stayed intact for say 1 minute is even less obvious.

Not saying it isn't possible but I really don't think that it has any impact on the Freight to Rail debate.

 

[Geezertronic]

Just seen an advertisment for GMTV, the lady driver in question is putting in an appearence on tomorrows show....

Some people will do anything for their 15 minutes of fame

Not saying it isn't possible but I really don't think that it has any impact on the Freight to Rail debate.

It does if someone is looking for a bandwagon to jump on, maybe a bigger soapbox is required

 

[Greenback]

Just seen an advertisment for GMTV, the lady driver in question is putting in an appearence on tomorrows show....

That's another reason to avoid GMTV in the morning then...

 

[Kernowfem]

Who'd give this lorry driver a train driving job???

 

[TrainBrain185]

http://www.hazardexonthenet.net/article.aspx?ArticleID=26087&cm_sp=PCA-_-Atex-_-AtexHp-_-CrackedAxle

Freight carried by rail can have its moments too.

 

[Oswyntail]

http://www.hazardexonthenet.net/article.aspx?ArticleID=26087&cm_sp=PCA-_-Atex-_-AtexHp-_-CrackedAxle

Freight carried by rail can have its moments too.

Yes - every activity has its disasters. But how much disruption do we hear from "lorry has shed its load" "lorry has overturned" "lorry has jack-knifed" daily on the traffic bulletins. This sort of thing is just standard - and horribly unsafe. Add to that one's own personal experience of lorries poor performance on motorways, and you have a very alarming picture. And then the less than rigorously enforced safety standards.....
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that road freight is essential. But there is no incentive to integrate, so the market will be filled with small, and cowboy-like, firms who have no interest or potential for working with rail to achieve more efficient services.

 

[Geezertronic]

I saw a cracking programme on one of the Discovery channels last night about how BNSF transport freight across the US from Los Angeles Port to Fort Worth in Texas using double stacked container trucks. Now that is how freight should be transported between cities

 

[TrainBrain185]

Yes - every activity has its disasters. But how much disruption do we hear from "lorry has shed its load" "lorry has overturned" "lorry has jack-knifed" daily on the traffic bulletins. This sort of thing is just standard - and horribly unsafe. Add to that one's own personal experience of lorries poor performance on motorways, and you have a very alarming picture. And then the less than rigorously enforced safety standards.....
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that road freight is essential. But there is no incentive to integrate, so the market will be filled with small, and cowboy-like, firms who have no interest or potential for working with rail to achieve more efficient services.

I could not agree with you more. I have witnessed some quite awful manouvres and incidents both stupid and quite appalling by trucks on motorways. I would support any actions to transfer as much from road to rail as possible. I kind of miss the old days where rail did the brunt of the freight and good ole BRS did the locals or "the final mile" with those BMC box vans and if anyone is old enough to remember those Scammell Scarreb artics better known as "mechanical horses"

 

[Geezertronic]

Depends on whether railfreight is cost effective though. If it is cheaper to send a 40ft container down by road than it is by rail (via container depots) then hauliers will send the container by road.

I presume hauliers still have to pay a lolo charge at the container depot? Does anyone have any figures for railfreight?

 

[Oswyntail]

Depends on whether railfreight is cost effective though....

That is a central question, and one you get very different answers to (usually depending on which industry you are talking to). It would be interesting if a regime similar to the track access charges were brought in for road. I suspect that would put a hefty dent in the "cheapness" - the current system gives limitless free mileage once the tax is paid.

 

[GearJammer]

Well i think you can guess what i do just by my name, i admit i laughed my nuts off when i seen that clip, i can confirm that from the drivers seat (depending on how he sits) that he probably would'nt see the car, and lets be honest, who would look for a car hanging off ya front bumper, not something you expect to see is it? As to how it got there without him noticeing i don't know, it would've made a noticeable bang on impact, my personal opinion is that he possibly knew it was there and was maybe ******ed off that maybe she had done something silly to get hooked on the front in the first place (i don't approve of it but know how sometimes you can get so frustrated behind the wheel) but ive seen the way people drive and the way they drive around trucks, they'll overtake, undertake and carry out all kinda suicidle moves 'just to get in front of the truck' i would be interested to know just how many people who have commented on this driver have actual experiance of driving a truck like that???????? I could go on about it but hey, its the sorta argumant that would go on forever.

As for road v rail im affraid rail will loose to road in most cases, i haul shipping containers out of Southampton, as an example tommorrow i will take a 20ft standard container from Southampton to Basildon in Essex, get it unloaded, then take it to Epsom in Surry, get it reloaded and get it back on the quay in Southampton docks the same day! All this can be done legally, in fact its no hardship to take a loaded container out of Southampton docks and get it tipped and reloaded and back on the quay in less than 24hours. In this day in age custermers want there containers delivered at a specific time, trucks are flexible, there are more of them, and when you want one then most of the time there is one available, rail can't compete with that! I also recall an occasion when i left Southampton docks, i noticed an EWS 66 with an Intermodel train leaving the docks, i can't recall the number but did write it down, i was heading up to the Birmingham area somewhere, where exactly i can't recall but while heading up the M42 the very same 66 and intermodel train went over the top of the motorway, so the train is'nt that much quicker either, where rail can beat road is in bulk haulage, ie coal and oil etc and tonnages!

Sorry to go on, but being a rail enthusiast and a truck driver, and in the past having driven a truck FOR a rail operator, i can see how both operate!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I'm sorry, GearJammer. But having driven many thousands of miles on Britain's roads and motorways, truckers are clearly the worst, least considerate, least safe group of drivers out there. The appalling standards of driving shown by these so called professional drivers is, at best, staggering and, at worst, a national disgrace. 5 minutes on any motorway will convince anyone of this. Yes, there are some terrible motorists. But the proportion is much lower. You also have to appreciate that they do not have the same level of training nor do they have access to vehicles over 3.5 tonnes.

In dry weather, CAR drivers are advised to remain two seconds behind the car in front. In wet weather, this doubles to 4 seconds. Next time you are out on the motorway in atrocious weather conditions, have a look and see how many trucks follow within 2 seconds of each other. Let alone 4 seconds. Let alone the further amount of time it actually takes to stop a TRUCK as opposed to a car. You lot need to realise just how dangerous you are and how disconcerting that is to other motorists.

Rant Over.

With that in mind, the less freight on the roads the better as far as I am concerned. Sadly, regrdless of how good rail becomes at moving freight, there will always be an element of road haulage for whatever reason.

As for the incident in question, the lorry driver was arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving once the footage was posted on youtube after the incident was originally put down as an RTA. Yet another crushing indictment of the effectiveness of the hopelessly inadequate West Yorkshire Police Force. 13 days to find Shannen Matthews at her uncle's house? Do me a favour.

 

[Kernowfem]

Well i think you can guess what i do just by my name, i admit i laughed my nuts off when i seen that clip, my personal opinion is that he possibly knew it was there and was maybe ******ed off that maybe she had done something silly to get hooked on the front in the first place (i don't approve of it but know how sometimes you can get so frustrated behind the wheel) but ive seen the way people drive and the way they drive around trucks, they'll overtake, undertake and carry out all kinda suicidle moves 'just to get in front of the truck' i would be interested to know just how many people who have commented on this driver have actual experiance of driving a truck like that????????

You laughed your nuts off when you saw the clip?? Perhaps the next time im on duty you'd care to come out with me and see the result of a car vs lorry accident? Perhaps you'd also like to deliver the bad news to a relative that their loved one will never come home again?? Would you be laughing your nuts off if the woman in that car was your wife with your kids in the back?? doubt it love, regardless of the outcome...you'd be demanding the drivers backside on a plate!!!

IF this driver did know the woman was attached to his front end then the guy wants banning from driving for life!! Ive never seen anything so stupid and quite frankly dangerous in all my life. If the woman was to blame, and did something daft, then the lorry driver should have reported her to the police, not shunted her for a mile and half down the A1. (i get frustrated with some drivers, cant ever remember doing this to another vehicle though..no bloody excuse!)
I dont need an HGV license to know that theres something seriously wrong with this film. Theres good and bad drivers on the road regardless of what they are driving....However im sure id notice if another vehicle was hanging off my front bumper. This guy was not paying attention either way in my opinion.

 

[Withered Arm]

I agree with you Kernowfem, i have driven lorries,yes you cant see right under the front but hell i think you would know if you had a car hooked up.Most lorry drivers are professional on the road i feel,the worst ones are the multi drop delivery types,mind you dont forget many car drivers are bad too.Ban all of them i say.Any way i think these threads have gone off the main topic ie freight on rail not roads, i agree rail cant be so flexible in some cases but it should be more cost effective, its down to greed by too many businesses having their hand in the pot.

 

[Kernowfem]

Indeed withered arm. I would like to see more freight being transfered back onto rail. But i seriously doubt its viable in this day and age. Roads are a far more direct way of hauling. In many cases there are towns not served by a station/rail service. Sadly the rail network isnt what it used to be. However wasnt it the road that eventually killed off many of the railways in the first place? How ironic would it be if old lines were eventually reopened to relieve the pressure on traffic levels?

 

[Withered Arm]

Im all in favour of freight off roads, i think we need regional road rail interchanges to use best of both forms of transport. Anything is possible it just needs those in power to implement it, ideally rail transport should be in state control, thats why today railways need so much state control-too many companies creaming off their fat profits,thats why so much of this country is rubbish

 

[royaloak]

If the woman was to blame, and did something daft, then the lorry driver should have reported her to the police.

Now you are having a laugh, it would be a complete waste of a phone call.

Been there done that!