merlodlliw
Established Member
No one as come back on rail fuel duty, but you all may enjoy this RFG statement
http://www.rfg.org.uk/news/?pid=0&lsid=3158&edname=28996.htm&ped=28996
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Another reason why frieght should be on the railways
- Thread starter crewmeal
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No one as come back on rail fuel duty, but you all may enjoy this RFG statement
http://www.rfg.org.uk/news/?pid=0&lsid=3158&edname=28996.htm&ped=28996
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RailUK Forums
Old Timer
Established Member
Rail used to be exempt but now pays fuel duty at 10.8p per litre.
Aviation fuel is exempt.
Aviation fuel is exempt.
I like it! I agree 100%!
Another example of a playing field that's stacked against rail?
(Aviation fuel exempt duty)
Indeed, but of course UK alone can't do much about that. It needs international agreement, else the airlines would simply uplift all their fuel in a duty-exempt country.
merlodlliw
Established Member
Thanks for the info on the duty,10.8p a litre, seems like a good deal compared
to over 80p a litre taxes on road fuel.
Rail Companies will buy it by the ton, so could be as low as 20p a litre or less
all in,
M
GearJammer
Member
Right im having one last say on this, since my last post some people are actually starting to see that the road haulage industry is'nt actually as bad as some people would have believe and does'nt get it easy as people would have you believe either, first off, im not saying that road haulage is perfect, its not, nor is the rail industry, im gonna try and answer a couple of things ive seen comments on.....
Overtaking.... when two trucks overtake yes it can take time due to diffrences in speed limiters, the speed limit for a truck on a motorway is 60mph, but very very few trucks are set/limited to that speed, i can name 2 major supermaket chains who's vehicles are limited to 50mph, alot of companies limit there vehicles to 52-54mph, they claim it reduces fuel usage (which even people in the industry question) the general opinion is that insurance companies offer lower premiums for slower vehicles, whilst most trucks come from the factory with there limiters set to 56-58mph, all this causes bunching where the faster trucks catch the slower trucks, truck drivers do not take ages to overtake just to p*** off the people behind, there just trying to get on, a driver driving a faster truck does'nt want to sit behind a slower truck anymore than your average car driver wants to sit behind either of them, and why should they? At the end of the day patience is needed by all but ive lost count the number of times ive creeped up behind another truck, wanted to overtake, but can't pull out because theres a que of cars overtaking me that are so close up each others backsides that its physically impossible to get a truck inbetween them, so while waiting for a gap, im getting closer and closer to the truck in front, now if im fully freighted at 44 tonnes im not going to want to back off to much as when a gap does become available its gonna take ages to get back up to speed TO overtake and take even longer, unfortunetly trucks do not just excellerate like cars do and most motorists fail to understand that, at the end of the day the uk roads are congested (due to the amount of cars.. not trucks) and when you put trucks that are limited from 50-60mph in the mix with cars that are doing 70mph+ conflicts are going to occur!
Damage to roads....... Ask yaself this question, why when the maxium weight of a standard 6 axled arctic is 44 tonnes are the roads not built to withstand that use? These trucks are blamed for doing all this damage when there not, what do you think the authorities who conduct these surveys would rather tell you, that trucks are not to blame because there designers spend millions of pounds in design work so that they don't have an adverse affect on the road surface or that the roads are damaged due to them building/maintaining them on the cheap?
I personnally believe most freight should stay on the road, what should be concentrated on is getting car drivers onto trains!!!! Frieght has its place on rail but only in specific cases, i'e bulk haulage and long distance haulage, and due the countrys small size long distance haulage is limted, but don't forget, taking 50 containers on a train from Felixstowe to Birmingham is all well and good, but you still need 50 trucks at the other end to take the containers to there individual destinations, and besides, not all the trucks travelling on the M6/A14 corridor are heading to birmingham, there going all over the place, thats the flexibilty that rail can't compete with, you'd be amazed at some of the out of the way places that containers go! Its been said that there should be more road/rail interchanges, all good in theory on long distance routes but for short haul it won't work due the time it takes to load/unload the trains, and time as they say is money!
One last thought, i came down the M40 near Banbury the other week and seen a freightliner train, it had its usual F/liner 66/5 on the front, right behind the loco was a 40ft container, then right on the back was another 40ft container TWO containers on a train, now who's gonna tell me thats cost effective, it would've been cheaper, and i suspect better on the environment for them to have been put on two trucks and took to southampton which is where it arrived at the same time i did about two hours later!
Overtaking.... when two trucks overtake yes it can take time due to diffrences in speed limiters, the speed limit for a truck on a motorway is 60mph, but very very few trucks are set/limited to that speed, i can name 2 major supermaket chains who's vehicles are limited to 50mph, alot of companies limit there vehicles to 52-54mph, they claim it reduces fuel usage (which even people in the industry question) the general opinion is that insurance companies offer lower premiums for slower vehicles, whilst most trucks come from the factory with there limiters set to 56-58mph, all this causes bunching where the faster trucks catch the slower trucks, truck drivers do not take ages to overtake just to p*** off the people behind, there just trying to get on, a driver driving a faster truck does'nt want to sit behind a slower truck anymore than your average car driver wants to sit behind either of them, and why should they? At the end of the day patience is needed by all but ive lost count the number of times ive creeped up behind another truck, wanted to overtake, but can't pull out because theres a que of cars overtaking me that are so close up each others backsides that its physically impossible to get a truck inbetween them, so while waiting for a gap, im getting closer and closer to the truck in front, now if im fully freighted at 44 tonnes im not going to want to back off to much as when a gap does become available its gonna take ages to get back up to speed TO overtake and take even longer, unfortunetly trucks do not just excellerate like cars do and most motorists fail to understand that, at the end of the day the uk roads are congested (due to the amount of cars.. not trucks) and when you put trucks that are limited from 50-60mph in the mix with cars that are doing 70mph+ conflicts are going to occur!
Damage to roads....... Ask yaself this question, why when the maxium weight of a standard 6 axled arctic is 44 tonnes are the roads not built to withstand that use? These trucks are blamed for doing all this damage when there not, what do you think the authorities who conduct these surveys would rather tell you, that trucks are not to blame because there designers spend millions of pounds in design work so that they don't have an adverse affect on the road surface or that the roads are damaged due to them building/maintaining them on the cheap?
I personnally believe most freight should stay on the road, what should be concentrated on is getting car drivers onto trains!!!! Frieght has its place on rail but only in specific cases, i'e bulk haulage and long distance haulage, and due the countrys small size long distance haulage is limted, but don't forget, taking 50 containers on a train from Felixstowe to Birmingham is all well and good, but you still need 50 trucks at the other end to take the containers to there individual destinations, and besides, not all the trucks travelling on the M6/A14 corridor are heading to birmingham, there going all over the place, thats the flexibilty that rail can't compete with, you'd be amazed at some of the out of the way places that containers go! Its been said that there should be more road/rail interchanges, all good in theory on long distance routes but for short haul it won't work due the time it takes to load/unload the trains, and time as they say is money!
One last thought, i came down the M40 near Banbury the other week and seen a freightliner train, it had its usual F/liner 66/5 on the front, right behind the loco was a 40ft container, then right on the back was another 40ft container TWO containers on a train, now who's gonna tell me thats cost effective, it would've been cheaper, and i suspect better on the environment for them to have been put on two trucks and took to southampton which is where it arrived at the same time i did about two hours later!
That's an excellent idea, ban cars and vans so that HGV's can have the roads all to themselves! And of course, it's obvious now, we should have been building roads strong enough to take a huge artic years and years ago...
Oh dear, I'm having a bit of funny turn, I'll take my tablets and go and have a lie down!
Oh dear, I'm having a bit of funny turn, I'll take my tablets and go and have a lie down!
royaloak
Established Member
Excellent idea, then lorrys can pay for ALL road repairs!
So how do you get the loco and wagons down to Southampton to work their next service?
I don't have much knowledge about road haulage, but I would guess that some trucks go back to their depot empty, and the same applies in the railway.
GearJammer
Member
Thats not what i said was it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My point was (as im sure anybody could tell) that the roads are congested due to the number of cars, not trucks on them, if the people that drove there cars used public transport then congestion might not be so bad!
Your right 142094, the point i was making was that earlier in the comments someone made the comment that per tonne, trains pollute less than trucks......... but not in this case!
It also demonstrates trains inflexibilty, it runs wether theres anything to put on it or not, why could it not have waited untill a more full load was available? If i tip a load somewhere but theres nothing to backload in the area that day but there is the next, then i wait for the load, then run back, it saves running a truck empty.
I do think there is a danger that we all debate on the basis of "received wisdom", which, IMHO, is based on an expansionist road industry from the 60s. For instance, our local Tesco takes two deliveries a day from a massive artic (barely fits into Ilkley), and I dare say the Booths, Waitrose, M&S and Morrisons nearby (within 5 miles) do the same. But, of course, like many large stores, it was built on railway land, and so has potential for easy access. Given a little ingenuity, a single freight emu, delivering to the station after midnight (stores are open) could have the stock for all those stores delivered when there was no one on the streets. And you would not need ten trucks. Just one (ah for the days of the Scammel Scarab). But, and here is the rub, you would need a flexible approach from the railways, co-operation between stores, and a distribution firm that was willing to leave the model of the big truck. So no chance
Old Timer
Established Member
It demonstrates nothing of the sort.
F/Liner trains are the freight equvalent of a passenger train running to booked paths.
The space on each wagon is bought by the shipping line/customer on a bulk basis. These spaces are guaranteed to the shipper until the train closes.
Wagons running around empty bear no reflection on the Railway rather the fact that the shipper has not used the space they booked. Think of it like an empty reserved seat on a train.
Nowadays as the Railway is no longer a common carrier, it runs trains to freight customers desires which is why so much now happens to run during the day when there is little capacity instead of at night when there is plenty of capacity available, which much greater opportunities for service recovery.
Locos running around light or short formed trains do not represent a loss nor a failure on the Railways part - they are still being paid for by the customer.
Most roads don't have to be widened. Lorries in Europe are restricted on overtaking during peak periods (or all day) and the autobahns in Germany are most 2-lane and operate just fine.
Can you imagine the danger of doing 155mph in lane two here? In Germany, you mix 155-200mph cars with lorries and cars and it's fine.
We also have the middle lane hoggers, who will simply make a 3 lane road operate line a 2 lane - with lane 1 reserved for air and the odd lorry or caravan.
The quality of driving in this country is abysmal, and doesn't seem to be getting better even though the driving test is now stricter than it has EVER been. I put that down to the lack of funding in the police to enforce all of these laws and punish motorists.
GearJammer
Member
Yes and no Oldtimer, a shipping line will book the amount of space it needs on a F/liner train, i'e, if they got 10 containers that need shifting they'll book 10 spaces, then if before the train leaves another two containers need shifting they'll book them on to, and other shipping lines will do the same on the same train untill it is full to capacity, or due to leave, hence why you see lots of diffrent shipping lines containers on one train, a shipping line will not pay for a space on a train unless they know they got something to put on it!
Having said that there are a few big shipping lines that do have there own trains for them and there containers get priority on these services, any spaces left over will be offered to other shippers, im not sure how many trains that run to/from southampton are specifically for one shipper, but next time i speek to a F/liner driver i'll try and find out, but from my experiance of working for them most trains to/from southampton are available for all shipping lines!
I gotta agree with most of that, especially that the quilty of driving is abysmal, not to sure about the overtaking bans tho, theres an overtaking ban on a stretch of the A14 between Corby and the M1, all it serves to do is to stick two fingers up at the truck drivers who can now only go as fast as the slowest vehicle up front while cars fly past in lane 2, but why is a car drivers journey any more important than a truck drivers?????????
Like i said, if a truck wants to overtake another than it should be allowed, if car drivers have to slow down then slow down, as i said before, people need to learn to learn a bit of patience and not rush about!
There are sections of road where the overtaking rules end, giving an opportunity for lorries to overtake.
Of course, the real solution here is to allow ALL lorries to drive at their maximum permitted speed. It seems the reason lorries need to overtake another lorry is because of an artificial restriction.
We wouldn't accept everyone driving in lane 3 at 30mph because they thought it was a bit more economical, and they're two hours early for their next meeting and fancied looking at the scenery. Any advanced motorist will know that you drive at the speed limit unless there's a good reason (poor visibility, bad road surface etc). Lorries should not be holding other lorries up for no good reason.
Of course, the real solution here is to allow ALL lorries to drive at their maximum permitted speed. It seems the reason lorries need to overtake another lorry is because of an artificial restriction.
We wouldn't accept everyone driving in lane 3 at 30mph because they thought it was a bit more economical, and they're two hours early for their next meeting and fancied looking at the scenery. Any advanced motorist will know that you drive at the speed limit unless there's a good reason (poor visibility, bad road surface etc). Lorries should not be holding other lorries up for no good reason.
Geezertronic
Established Member
Kernowfem
Member
I wouldnt put it solely down to lack of police funding. Id say there are numerous factors that contribute to the crap drivers we have on our roads. Mainly those who drive while drunk or drugged, those elderly drivers who cant see past the end of their nose, the proverbial boy racer, that company rep thats forever weaving in and out of lane two and three on every motorway in britain, the lady driver who thinks the rear view mirror is for the application of make up, the bloke in the landrover who thinks its fun to put his front grill as close to your backside as possible. White van man whos schedule is so crippling he has to go everywhere at breakneck speed, the lorry driver who decides to overtake another lorry at 00.02 mph faster. The cyclist who will always swerve into the road making you in turn swerve and will hold up buses, coaches and lorrys that are too big to slip past without squashing him flat. Then we have those unlucky enough to get caught driving like morons who are prosecuted only to have their hands slapped. Maybe we should all take responsibility for our own driving, at the end of the day we use the roads and every one of us does at one time make a mistake, theres no such thing as a perfect driver...is there gentleman???
All of those things are why there needs to be more road policing, and a move away from the use of speed cameras or ANPR to find marked cars. Police need to be able to do normal patrols that pick up all of those examples you've listed.
And then you punish them. And repeat offenders then get bans. And when they're caught on a ban, they're put inside for a short spell.
End result, hopefully, less people doing the above.
I do take responsibility for my driving, as do many others, but I can't do much about the others!
And then you punish them. And repeat offenders then get bans. And when they're caught on a ban, they're put inside for a short spell.
End result, hopefully, less people doing the above.
I do take responsibility for my driving, as do many others, but I can't do much about the others!
Old Timer
Established Member
Not correct, as I said Shipping Lines and shippers buy SPACE per year on specific trains. They certainly do not buy on a day to day basis except when they have containers in excess of those which they have reserved under Contract.
The way things are done maybe different depending on the shipping line and the FOC.
Where we are we have 3 "contract" trains that are soley contracted to one large shipping line and its is up to the shipping line to make up the numbers. Whether there is 1 box on the train or 50, we get paid the same amount of money.
If there are spaces on the train these spaces would NOT be filled.
On the other side we have 2 spot trains which are "open" where the boxes will be booked by our commercial staff anything from 2 weeks in advance to a couple of hours. Contracts can last from as little as moving just one or two boxes on the day but can also range from a couple of months to a couple of years.
Where we are we have 3 "contract" trains that are soley contracted to one large shipping line and its is up to the shipping line to make up the numbers. Whether there is 1 box on the train or 50, we get paid the same amount of money.
If there are spaces on the train these spaces would NOT be filled.
On the other side we have 2 spot trains which are "open" where the boxes will be booked by our commercial staff anything from 2 weeks in advance to a couple of hours. Contracts can last from as little as moving just one or two boxes on the day but can also range from a couple of months to a couple of years.
Kernowfem
Member
I agree.....ANPR and speed cameras are little more than a money making incentive. Sadly this seems to be the focus of road policing these days.
90019
Established Member
Although, compared to America, the driving here is really rather good
It alsways seem surprising the number of car drivers who don't seem to understand the concept of staying to the left on the motorway unless overtaking though.
The only speed cameras worth anything are SPECS (the average speed ones) as people have to slow down for these... and 99% do. The others will do nothing but take a photo of that car driving too fast into the bus shelter.
ANPR is fine too, and saves the police a lot of time by spotting uninsured motorists, out of date tax etc - but it's no good when people are driving around with cloned plates (which they do partly to avoid speed cameras and other things like the congestion charge). Oh, and the police can become lazy and just sit parked up with a camera pointed at the road waiting for the alert. Meanwhile, they miss loads of other things.
Technology helps the police, but should never replace the police.
And, as for the other comment, undertaking is legal (or tolerated) in the US and as a result, you have to be on your guard a lot more. I actually found that as long as you look properly, its not really unsafe at all - even though it looks like they're all over the road, literally. Here, you only get the people undertaking who do so at high speed to weave in and out and force people off the road.
The Americans also seem to drive so much slower. Yes, kids may race, but generally, they cruise. They do up their motors, get them all shiny and then drive around. We do that too, obviously, but have the temptation to race anyone that makes eye contact!
I can be honest enough to admit to having done this in my younger years too.
royaloak
Established Member
Or pass the tw#t sat in the middle lane of the motorway doing 50mph!
ChrisCooper
Established Member
I drive coaches on occasion (not my full time job, but I've got a licence and do occasional work for 2 of the local companies) and the number of times I've been crusing along on the speed limiter only to have to slow up behind a car sitting in the middle lane is really annoying. Of cource in that circumstance you have 4 choices. Sit behind them and not only end up late but incur the wrath of all those coming up behind who see you as the lane hog as the offending car is invisible to them, be the big bad coach/lorry driver and intimidate them to move over (sitting very close behind them, flashing lights etc is effective), or to break the law either by overtaking them (coaches are banned from the 3rd lane on 3 lane motorways) or undertaking them.
Very true. Middle lane hoggers are not only annoying but effectively remove an entire lane from the motorway.
It would be far cheaper to have more 'keep left unless overtaking' signs than widen roads or go for hard-shoulder running. Oh, and enforce the rules. Middle lane hoggers argue that it's safer (despite having traffic passing both sides, legally or not) and they don't have to change lanes all the time to pass lorries.
That only says to me that they're too timid to even have a licence! I enjoy changing lanes and staying awake when driving. It keeps you alert. Driving in lane 2 at 50mph requires no attention at all. That does NOT make you safer.
As for undertaking a middle lane hogger. If the road is empty enough to easily use lane 3 and overtake, I will - but may cut in a little tighter than normal and return to lane 1. On occasion, where it's obvious the car won't pull over for years (no exit in sight) then I have gone for the undertake simply as it's easier than going from 2 to 3 to 2 to 1. I'll do that if the road is totally empty, but would still have to take it on the chin if I was pulled over for it - annoying as it would be.
It would be far cheaper to have more 'keep left unless overtaking' signs than widen roads or go for hard-shoulder running. Oh, and enforce the rules. Middle lane hoggers argue that it's safer (despite having traffic passing both sides, legally or not) and they don't have to change lanes all the time to pass lorries.
That only says to me that they're too timid to even have a licence! I enjoy changing lanes and staying awake when driving. It keeps you alert. Driving in lane 2 at 50mph requires no attention at all. That does NOT make you safer.
As for undertaking a middle lane hogger. If the road is empty enough to easily use lane 3 and overtake, I will - but may cut in a little tighter than normal and return to lane 1. On occasion, where it's obvious the car won't pull over for years (no exit in sight) then I have gone for the undertake simply as it's easier than going from 2 to 3 to 2 to 1. I'll do that if the road is totally empty, but would still have to take it on the chin if I was pulled over for it - annoying as it would be.
GearJammer
Member
Yeah but lets be honest fella, those kinda drivers don't take the blindest bit of notice of signs anyway!
Fair comment and i do it myself (not in the truck tho i might add) but i would like to think that if the police did see this happen they would be rather more inclined to talk to the person hogging the middle lane in the first place!
Geezertronic
Established Member
The amount of tw4ts I see driving whilst on their mobile phone is still unbelievable. One a few weeks ago was a lorry driver texting and weaving between Lane 1 and 2 on the M4 at the same time. I admit to giving him a hand signal 
Yes and no. I do think a lot of people don't seem to know they shouldn't drive in lane 2, as they believe each lane is for different speeds. As they're doing between 50-70, they're going faster than a lot of vehicles in lane 1 so they feel it is justified to stay in lane 2. Those wanting to go faster go in lane 3.
The signs might just remind them that this is not the case, along with a short sharp shock if caught.
I always remember being taught that if you're going to take longer than ten seconds to overtake, you should pull in.
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