Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[jopsuk]

The keyword there is "Route" I think- the Northern City line won't be at any stage part of the TL Route. After all, there's still talk of there being different stock for some of the Kings Lynn services starting at Kings Cross. The deep Moorgate route wouldn't be able to handle even the 8 car Thameslink sets, let alone the 12 car ones, and that's the only two lengths they're specified to come in.

 

[jon0844]

Good point about the length; clearly they're not going to run as 4 car when the station is good for 6 - and there's no way those platforms can be extended (cheaply anyway).

I presume therefore that this will become part of London Overground and have its own rolling stock, presumably the 378s - considering they've replaced 313s elsewhere.

The next question will be when will these trains be ordered/built/introduced? Will this be by 2015 or are they going to keep the 313s running for the next 50 years? (And, I reckon they'd actually be able to do it too!)

 

[Class377]

So, it's October on Wednesday, and the new timetables/diagrams come out then.
Any idea as to whether the current 377 diagrams will be similar? With more coming into service, I presume they'll be amost the same...

 

[Aictos]

If and it's a big If, 378s go on to replace 313s then don't forget they need a lower roof profile to fit in the NCL tunnels which is the main reason why 313s are the only trains allowed down there apart from 73s of course.

Would passengers be happy with doing all stations from Letchworth to Moorgate via Hertford with the reduced amount of seating available?

Not keen on LOROL just running Moorgate to Finsbury Park, it's too busy.

As to Siemens, I wouldn't have minded to see 350/1s in a 2x2 seating like the 365s because then you wouldn't need the 321s plus send the 317s off for a proper refurbishment ie a DDA toilet, 1st Class at one end of the train, headlights modification with a indicator like the 317/7s.

But if it came down to it, I would prefer to let NXEA take the 321s and 317s and replace them with either a AC only 377 or 350/1s.

 

[Edvid]

So, it's October on Wednesday, and the new timetables/diagrams come out then.

October starts on Thursday , in any case the new SX diagrams start on the 12th.

Any idea as to whether the current 377 diagrams will be similar? With more coming into service, I presume they'll be amost the same...

Probably. Apparently there will be 4 more of them (along with 80 '319' diagrams).

 

[jon0844]

Would passengers be happy with doing all stations from Letchworth to Moorgate via Hertford with the reduced amount of seating available?

The seating configuration could surely be different, ideally 2x2 - to give more standing room and maximum seating, on account of the fact that most people will leave one seat empty on a 3 seat bench anyway. The incredibly open NLL seating is probably a bit too extreme?

As for headroom, well it will be what it is. I've never felt the 313s are low - perfectly possible to stand up without feeling the ceiling is closing in!

 

[RobShipway]

The current batch of 378's that are being delivered as three car trains, will be lengthened to four cars next year after the next batch of 378's have been completed which will be four car trains from the outset.

 

[Pumbaa]

The current batch of 378's that are being delivered as three car trains, will be lengthened to four cars next year after the next batch of 378's have been completed which will be four car trains from the outset.

There is already at least 1 4car 378 running around on test at the moment.

 

[jopsuk]

According to the font of mostly-relaiable knowledge that is wikipedia, the first 24 are being delivered as 3 car dual voltage /0s, the 23 ELL units will be DC-only four cars and be /1s, and then ten additional dual voltage four car /2s will be delivered along with the extra cars tomake the /0s into /2s. Or something

 

[MCR247]

They really need 23 unites for the ELL extension?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377517 ran as 5Z11 to Bedford yesterday. Now for the rest of the points raised.

While their new 'Xtrapolis' train is quite...interesting...I'm not convinced by things such as the door placements. Why are they right next to each other, meaning passengers along the platform will have to bunch up something shocking to get on and off - surely it makes sense to place doors as evenly as possible along the platform with a high-density inner-suburban train.

For the record, I want Siemens to win. They know how to build good trains that are suitable for purpose and reliable from the off - the 350/2 introduction was a textbook example of how it should be done, with trains coming into service almost on a daily basis, and just working 'straight out of the box'.

I wish I could say the same for Bombardier, as it's sad to see the country that invented the railways going abroad for their trains.

I think the door placement is better for the way the Thameslink customers use the trains. This is my personal view after seeing what customers do in the Core on a daily basis. They already bunch up where they need to be and know where the doors are roughtly. IE customers getting of at Cioty either board at the front or back of the trains depending on the exit and create problems when they leave as they refuse to leave expect the door nearest their exit. Double doors next to each other will help reduce this effect and off load customers quicker. The fact that the carriages will be shorter meaning more doors means that there will be more doorways for the passengers to use.

So, it's October on Wednesday, and the new timetables/diagrams come out then.
Any idea as to whether the current 377 diagrams will be similar? With more coming into service, I presume they'll be amost the same...

The current diagrams run out on the 10th of October. I'd expect them to hit the stations around this date and then we'll have a better idea of what to expect but more 377 diagrams is expect with maybe some weekend working. MAYBE. Its likely that more diagrams mean no weekend working as FCC likes to use this time to inspect the units properly. You won't get them on the south part of the network as there is no where to look after them properly. They will only run Bedford to St Pancras on weekends unless the Core is open. But once again no news on if this will happen.

The next diagram change after this will be the 13th December which will be the FULL KO0 timetable originally promised for March. Although you have different timetable around Christmas any way. Especially with the 86hr block at Blackfriars this year as well as next year.

It didn't need to be relaxed, as the section that needed front/rear access was on the way into Moorgate - and that section is closed now.

But, that said, surely trains into Moorgate on GN will need front/rear access - and isn't it one standard train design to be used throughout the new Thameslink route? Or will Finsbury Park - Moorgate have already gone over to London Overground by 2015 and use different rolling stock?

Er Moorgate will be served by the 313 fleet as now (tho with a few extra trains from LO) even with the full introduction of the NXEMU's. The 313 fleet will be replaced at some future date (2020-2030).

There is semi single bore, Snow Hill tunnel is affectively like that. Just remeber that the pictures released are for the general idea as Thameslink may get a different nose to allow escape if problems arise.

The keyword there is "Route" I think- the Northern City line won't be at any stage part of the TL Route. After all, there's still talk of there being different stock for some of the Kings Lynn services starting at Kings Cross. The deep Moorgate route wouldn't be able to handle even the 8 car Thameslink sets, let alone the 12 car ones, and that's the only two lengths they're specified to come in.

All FCC trains apart the 313 are to be replaced with NXEMU's. This is to make sure there is no difference in performance when on the ECML. The 313 will do the Hertford Loop and not really do much work on the ECML compared to the NXEMU's.

Good point about the length; clearly they're not going to run as 4 car when the station is good for 6 - and there's no way those platforms can be extended (cheaply anyway).

I presume therefore that this will become part of London Overground and have its own rolling stock, presumably the 378s - considering they've replaced 313s elsewhere.

The next question will be when will these trains be ordered/built/introduced? Will this be by 2015 or are they going to keep the 313s running for the next 50 years? (And, I reckon they'd actually be able to do it too!)

The NXEMU bid is for a flexable length train so its possible a '6 car' verison may be used in the future on the Moorgate lines. Would make sense. Timetable for the NXEMU build could be TLP stock, Crossrail then Moorgate add ons.

 

[MCR247]

I thought some GN routes were getting IEP?

 

[Pumbaa]

I thought some GN routes were getting IEP?

Kings Lynn possibly, but that's still far off.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Kings Lynn possibly, but that's still far off.

I was trying to forget about them but yes there is a plan for them to be used on some GN routes but its likely these would be removed from the Thameslink Programme Franchise when its re-let for 2015.

FCC is one of the TOC that will be dealing with the IEP testing whenever that starts.

 

[Pumbaa]

I was trying to forget about them but yes there is a plan for them to be used on some GN routes but its likely these would be removed from the Thameslink Programme Franchise when its re-let for 2015.

FCC is one of the TOC that will be dealing with the IEP testing whenever that starts.

I was aware of that! I was however dealing with MCR247 for you, as he had evidently not noticed that you were making your post as simples as possible!

 

[westcoaster]

anyone know which 377/2 was on cricklewood yesterday, it was still there at midnight, heard on the grape vine 12 car 377 testing will start soon on the tl north route.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I was aware of that! I was however dealing with MCR247 for you, as he had evidently not noticed that you were making your post as simples as possible!

Ive been getting that much information about little bits lately Ive had make it simple or Id forget it all. What being a blond is like

anyone know which 377/2 was on cricklewood yesterday, it was still there at midnight, heard on the grape vine 12 car 377 testing will start soon on the tl north route.

Why do they need to do 12 car testing?

They've already run 12 Electrostars units on the MML and there no point testing anything else as signalling and platforms aren't ready anyway. 26 months till we get regular 12 working anyway.

 

[westcoaster]

There are now 2 377's on cricklewood 377213/520, not sure what the 12 car testing is all about, I heard it in the mess room from a normally reliable source.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

There are now 2 377's on cricklewood 377213/520, not sure what the 12 car testing is all about, I heard it in the mess room from a normally reliable source.

I know the driver training for 377 is still on going for awhile as some Blackfriars drivers don't start thier training until June 2010! Seems way too early to do 12 car testing. Unless its a software thing? See what I can dig up.

 

[Class377]

Thanks for all the help MacKenzie - would you please be able to post the new 377 diagram spreadsheet when you get them please - they're so helpful when planning journeys.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Thanks for all the help MacKenzie - would you please be able to post the new 377 diagram spreadsheet when you get them please - they're so helpful when planning journeys.

I intend to do the same as last time. Tho don't expect it too quickly as working it all out into a timetable takes awhile. And I don't expect to get the diagrams until the first week they start.

**Update 6th October**

377506 and 377517 both turned up in livery today.

Had a briefing on the NXEMU's today and here's some information give to me. This is a brand new briefing with the latest information;

• Ive had it confirmed that some 313/317/321/365 will remain on the GN side after the full introduction of the NXEMU's. This 'residual' Great Northern fleet will be based at Hornsey in the current depot.

• The 377/5 are the first trains to be replaced by the NXEMU's. We knew this but its the first time its been confirmed.

As for the introduction of the NXEMU's had some dates given offically.

• "Testing south of London" will happen in 2012.
• However "testing north of London" will happen in 2014.
• The first unit in passenger service on TL will in 2013
• First unit in passenger service on the GN in 2014
• Tunnel connection between St Pancras and Finsbury Park will open in service in December 2015.

Im guessing the "north of London" means the GN testing as the first MML NXEMU running is in service in 2013!

 

[asylumxl]

Is Bombardier set to win the contract then?

I know the changeover at Farringdon takes a while in the 377s but I don't think it takes 2 years to change to AC to go north?!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Is Bombardier set to win the contract then?

I know the changeover at Farringdon takes a while in the 377s but I don't think it takes 2 years to change to AC to go north?!

I hope not, don't like the Bombardier bid. Im wondering could it be London Bridge - Brighton services using full length NXEMU's until London Bridge rebuild is complete?

** UPDATE **

Got ahold of the new diagrams today. And there isn't really much to report. The single diagram 605 its a partner with new diagram 616 which run as an 8 car all day long. 605 also has some changes. Diagram 612 increases it milage to now pair with 613 all day long.

Changes are in bold

Changes involving 377's

2T11 05:20 Bedford-Brighton 605/616
1T83 08:02 Brighton-Bedford 616/605
1T12 09:34 Brighton-Bedford 613/612
2T39 12:24 Bedford-Brighton 612/613
1T43 15:10 Bedford-Brighton 605/616
1T46 18:04 Brighton-Bedford 616
1T48 18:34 Brighton-Bedford 605

The following services are now 319 instead of a 377

2A04 02:10 Bedford-St Pancras International
2G39 03:58 St Pancras International-Bedford
1T05 05:40 Bedford-Brighton
2W16 08:16 Brighton-Bedford
1T39 14:10 Bedford-Brighton
2B60 17:09 Brighton-London Bridge
2B49 18:42 London Bridge-Brighton
2T66 20:07 Brighton-Bedford

I have the diagrams but yet to figure out how to upload files onto here. Expect the timetable over the weekend.

 

[westcoaster]

what a day of disruption today on the tl route, someone accidently sliced/cut through the signalling cables at blackfriars, only affecting 1 southbound signal but look at the chaos caused by it.

Line problem in the Blackfriars area.
Train services between St Pancras International and Brighton via London Blackfriars have been disrupted due to signalling problems in the Blackfriars area.Engineers have worked as fast as possible to restore services to normal. Short notice alterations and delays of up to 45 minutes can be expected.
South West Trains between Sutton and Epsom will accept First Capital Connect tickets.Also Buses between Sutton and Wimbledon will accept First Capital Connect tickets.Tramlink are accepting First Capital Connect tickets between Mitcham Junction and Wimbledon.LUL are also accepting tickets on any reasonable route

 

[Class377]

Doesn't that mean that there will be less 377 diagrams then?

 

[Tom C]

Yes, it wasn't fun this afternoon. They made a strange decision to turn all the 2V's at Wimbledon, not to run any 2O's past Kentish Town and terminate a Beckenham Junction at Loughborough Junction!!!.

Just another day in the south!

 

[asylumxl]

The supposed signal problem in the Blackfriars area was the signal between City and Blackfriars.

The stations aren't exactly miles apart, so I'm unsure why it created such a problem.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Sounds like I had a luckly escape. I was manning the platform at Blackfriars when the track circuit failed at the south end of platform 4. Signal at the end of the extended platform was manually set by the signaller with the signal just before on red. The driver of the first train who had already experienced a change of aspect at City was then given permission to enter into the platform at Blackfriars. Trains after this were having to ask the signaller for permission to proceed. Luckly this was at the end of my shift so I didn't get stuck in too much before going home safely north!

This might give you guys an idea of the problems. So im taking this problem kept going for awhile? Failure happened around 1225 as I think the 1230 Sutton service off Blackfriars was the first affected service.

Doesn't that mean that there will be less 377 diagrams then?

Don't quite get how you worked that when there's an extra diagram and the above is extra working. Daily 377 milage goes up around 700 miles with this change from the last set of diagrams.

 

[Tom C]

Was still in a bad way at 18:00 and I would presume that it would have a knock on effect for the rest of the evening. Hopefully they have sorted out the stock for the normal Saturday blockade, noticed a lot of Brightons going into London Bridge so think they have played it safe.

 

[Edvid]

Doesn't that mean that there will be less 377 diagrams then?

Don't quite get how you worked that when there's an extra diagram and the above is extra working. Daily 377 milage goes up around 700 miles with this change from the last set of diagrams.

Perhaps he meant services. In that respect, there are three services (net) that switch from 377 to 319 operation but two of the existing 377 services have been doubled in length.

I can see how the 377 mileage has still increased:

1T11+1T83 involve twice the mileage of 1T05+2W16 (two units replace one); 1T12+2T39 also involve twice the mileage (an extra unit); 1T43 involves twice the mileage of 1T39 (two units replace one).

As for the rest, 1T46 and 1T48 involve about twice the mileage of 2B60 and 2B49 (longer trips). In effect the only net losses are 2A04, 2G39 and 2T66.

Therefore FCC have added the rough equivalent of 2 return Bedford-Brighton trips - a small amount over 400 miles. While comparing your May 09/Oct 09 diagrams I could only get roughly 500 miles (the newer BO605 involves fewer not more miles) until I realised that your May 09 BO605 mileage was just over 100 miles below the correct figure.

Colour Key: BDM<->BTN; LBG<->BTN; BDM<->STP