Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Pumbaa]

From today - one 350 has gone back permanently to LM, SN now only have 3. A 377/2 has been on the circuit since Monday it turns out. This is due to 2 reasons:

- It's been knackering the 350s mechanically. The MPC has plummeted for those based at Selhurst. 118 in particular suffered almost constant TMS failure last week. 113 is picking up an increase in changeover failures. 116 was dropped out of the pool to get its TMS looked at also. 122 has moved back in this week to replace 116.

- Crews based at Selhurst have been stuck on the 350s almost constantly, as only a small number were trained up. They're unhappy about the work, so a 377 has been re-introduced to get training back up, so the crews can get back out on the network.

I was also told today that at the end of next week, LM want to bring the 350s on loan down to 2, and to 0 by end of October. In terms of failures, my return 350 service today was screwed by faulty PASSCOM devices that kept tripping. Also 10x, as I didn't catch the last number was bothered today by faulty TMS.

 

[Class377]

Just wondering, do you think the new timetable/diagrams will put any 377s on Saturdays? There are a lot of them with FCC now and it would take the strain off the 319s, or are they being kept purely for BED-BTN?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Just wondering, do you think the new timetable/diagrams will put any 377s on Saturdays? There are a lot of them with FCC now and it would take the strain off the 319s, or are they being kept purely for BED-BTN?

Its all guess work but the 319 are nunder no strain at the weekends with mainly four car running, shorter jouneries, no Sevenoaks/Elephant & Castle trains and simpler timetabling.

I don't think we'll see weekend working yet until the whole fleet is in place.

 

[The Box Photter]

Just an update. 377501 + 377320 were on the 17:46 hrs Blackfriars to Brighton this evening. 501 in full livery (plus a few "tags" from the graffiti artists) and 520 without vinyls. Which diagram would this have been?

 

[Pumbaa]

Updates on the 350s, and the last one from me as I live in the South no more:

- Still 1 x 377 on the MK/ECR circuit, and will stay this way, with it going progressively back to 377 operation asap.
- 116 has come back in after some TLC at Northampton. 113 is behaving itself at the moment. 122 is also still on the circuit, with 123 today acting as spare.
- The 377/2 comes on mid-morning after bolstering peak am trains around South London.
- 350118 buggered off late last week for mending, although I'm unsure as to its current location.

It looks like 113/116/122 will stay until the end of the loan arrangement, with them being returned to LM as needed. 113 and 116 are at current the longest serving 350s on the Southern, whichever one is returned last will be the longest, providing no more problems between now and then!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Following on from 377521 delivery last week after a three week gap, last night saw 377517 being delivered. All going well both units should be with FCC by the new diagram change in just over four weeks time. 517 is the 16th 377/5.

This leaves 503/514/515/518/519/522/523 out standing.

Yesterday 377501 was on diagram 610 with 377520 on its twin diagram 611. 501 has been hit by graffi a few times now but its just been washed off leaving the vinyls messed up.

 

[Evvy73]

Yep, 377517 was sitting outside Selhurst depot at about 7:50am this morning as I passed on my way to work.

It really stood out, being all nice and shiny and with a very clean 66728 in GBRf livery attached too.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377513 should be back in service after going to Chart Leacon yesterday for Bombardier to fix a fault on the unit. All I know about the fault is that couldn't run on AC for some reason. The unit joins a list of 377/5 that Bombarbier have had to work on after they've left Derby.

 

[jon0844]

Bombardier make planes too - but God help us all if anyone that works on their train division was allowed to even work on something like fitting carpet to an aeroplane!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Today FCC have manged to run 15 diagrams of 377 this morning, the current maxiumum FCC can run. Even recently dodgy unit 377513 was in service. The units worked as such

601 377508
602 377512
603 377209
604 377507
605 377510
606 377513
607 577506
608 377509
609 377502
610 377208
611 377504
612 377516
613 377213
614 377520
615 377501​

This left 505/511 at Cauldwell for the day with 521/517 at Selhurst for now.

 

[395 Olympic Javelin]

How long will the Alstom X'trapolis at the Saatchi gallery will be?

 

[Edvid]

If Alstom win the bid then we'll see 10 and 15-car X'trapolis units (each carriage would be approx. 16m long).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

If Alstom win the bid then we'll see 10 and 15-car X'trapolis units (each carriage would be approx. 16m long).

I quite like them actually. They are very different tho which could affect as Siemens bid is based on just updating the Desiro.

Today did see 15 377 diagrams again until 377504/510 failed at City due to unit failure. Main reason was doors failed and could only be opened from the outside. Curiously the unit has a problem opening its doors heading north at 1E63 but after a couple of minutes it got its doors open. Ive not seen door problems at City since March.

 

[Aictos]

Got any idea what the Siemens one could look like?

 

[MCR247]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_gb-siemens-desiro-city-impression.jpg

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Update

*377521 arrived at Bedford as 5Z50 today.

*377517 will head to Cauldwell on friday. No info on the time yet.

*The 3 remaining 377/2 will return to "Southern at the end of November".

*SDO fault has now lead Bombardier to "impllement two techinal changes to 377/5 units" to screen out interferance from the OHLE. Work started this week on fitting a metal screening to the units. New software change is on the way and should be commisioned in two months.

*Reconfirning that three 377/2 will return to FCC from December 2011 to allow Bedford - Brighton 12 car services using Electrostars until the NXEMUs arrive in force.

*The month long shut down of Blackfriars to move the track has been delayed from June until somewhere between October and year end 2010.

*Now 319374 has return a futher 14 units are going to Wolverton for maintance. Final unit is due to be finished in May/June 2010.

*A 365 is due to be named 'Hornsey Depot' shortly.

Some future dates coming up.

*12 October
Leaf fall timetable/99 units in service

* 26 October
Blackfriars Platform 4 extension opened

*26 November
Final 377/5 deliveried

*06 December
OHLE live at City

*13 December
December timetable

 

[Aictos]

Thanks Mack for the gen,

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Yet more to come

Surprised no-one said anything abut this but the 377's disgraced themselves today big time.

1E61, 1E63 & 1E65 ALL failed at Farringdon northbound. Something clearly happened and Im told this "The three that failed earlier all had the LIM Reset come up on the MITRAC. Something to do with where they were berthed last night." I do know 377209/509 started on diagrams 603/604 but transferred to 601/602 on its second run of the day and seemed to be ok for the remainer of the day.

Good news is 377521 has had its first day in service and has been fine. Also the diagram 613 single running has been abandoned last few weeks and kept them running as an 8 car. Unusual but a TOC running 'long formed service'!

377518 (FCC's 17th Electrostar) left derby last night but haven't heard anything thing else about the unit yet.

 

[asylumxl]

I heard about this happening waiting for a train to go Southbound. I wasn't aware of the actual circumstances.

This is not looking good for Bombardier.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I heard about this happening waiting for a train to go Southbound. I wasn't aware of the actual circumstances.

This is not looking good for Bombardier.

I can't see how this would affect the 377's so badly as regularly they pass each other and the whole Core 3rd rail has been upgraded to provide the 377's with more power. Hopefully its a one off.

Just an update, doesn't seem 377517 went to Cauldwell today. And it seems a problem coupling up to 377518 means it never left Derby. Not had either confirmed but if I get any info will of course pass it on.

 

[jon0844]

Wow, these trains will soon be more unreliable than 180s (considering the age of the FCC fleet, I guess they already are far worse and will need to run without problems for months or years to catch up!).

For goodness sake, let's not let Bombardier build the new rolling stock for 2015!

 

[paul1609]

Personally as the only train manufacturing facility left in the UK I seriously hope they do get the order.
I understand that reliability of the 350 s used on dual voltage services has been pretty poor too, not to mention that desiros on dc should be renamed desire-so-slow.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377518 is currently on its way to Selhurst after departing derby station. This is the 17th 377/5 to be delivered.

This leaves 377503/514/515/519/522/523 remaining. Southern have gotten much quicker at comissioning each unit as 505 was done in 3 weeks but 377521 took 12 days from delivery to get to Selhurst. 8 weeks left to the 'final' date of November 26th gives an 377/5 a week and two weeks of testing if everything goes to plan.

Also this week FCC have make some noise internally over the forthcoming December timetables for both the GN and TL routes with staff briefing on the subject expected soon. so this looks like the time to rid the City terminators (tho 3, I think, very early mornings stay). The 99 units diagrams using pure FCC TL stock (ie no networkers or 317's) is expected to hit with the leafall timetable due shortly. This will likely be 19x '377 diagrams' and 80x 319 diagrams. Futher info will be forthcoming.

Wow, these trains will soon be more unreliable than 180s (considering the age of the FCC fleet, I guess they already are far worse and will need to run without problems for months or years to catch up!).

For goodness sake, let's not let Bombardier build the new rolling stock for 2015!

I'd like Alstom to win to be honest.

 

[Pumbaa]

Personally as the only train manufacturing facility left in the UK I seriously hope they do get the order.
I understand that reliability of the 350 s used on dual voltage services has been pretty poor too, not to mention that desiros on dc should be renamed desire-so-slow.

Where did this come from? The main problem of Dual Desiros has been that they were being catered for at a new depot, with home visits being increasingly rare, and they were non-standard. The actual day to day running was fine, the changeovers were rarely failed. The main problem was the TMS not coping after weeks of the same thing every day, with outstanding TLC being built up. The same 4x 350s are stuck on for weeks at a time, not going back to Northampton, and didn't have earlier warning signs picked up by Selhurst. Admittedly this isn't their fault. Actually in service the 350s have had a higher MPC than the 377/2s.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Where did this come from? The main problem of Dual Desiros has been that they were being catered for at a new depot, with home visits being increasingly rare, and they were non-standard. The actual day to day running was fine, the changeovers were rarely failed. The main problem was the TMS not coping after weeks of the same thing every day, with outstanding TLC being built up. The same 4x 350s are stuck on for weeks at a time, not going back to Northampton, and didn't have earlier warning signs picked up by Selhurst. Admittedly this isn't their fault. Actually in service the 350s have had a higher MPC than the 377/2s.

Id love to see the difference in figures between the 350/1 MPC compared to the 377/2 and 377/5 because the Electrostars have been terrible, especially the 377/2 which have failed more then the /5 for some werid reason!

 

[asylumxl]

On a 377/5, the 10 44 to Brighton, sitting at Farringdon. delayed due to a fault..
.
377521+511 are the units in question.

 

[Daimler]

I'd like Alstom to win to be honest.

While their new 'Xtrapolis' train is quite...interesting...I'm not convinced by things such as the door placements. Why are they right next to each other, meaning passengers along the platform will have to bunch up something shocking to get on and off - surely it makes sense to place doors as evenly as possible along the platform with a high-density inner-suburban train.

For the record, I want Siemens to win. They know how to build good trains that are suitable for purpose and reliable from the off - the 350/2 introduction was a textbook example of how it should be done, with trains coming into service almost on a daily basis, and just working 'straight out of the box'.

I wish I could say the same for Bombardier, as it's sad to see the country that invented the railways going abroad for their trains.

 

[Drsatan]

Furthermore, I've noticed that the front ends of the "Xtrapolis" units don't have doors: I've heard that all multiple units using single bore tunnels have to have an emergency exit at the front to allow access onto the track. Either this is an oversight on Alsthom's part or this regulation has been relaxed, I don't know which

 

[jopsuk]

Well, Turbostars go though the the two single bore tunnels under "The Mound" in Edinburgh a heck of a lot, and Voyagers and 322s through the Calton Hill tunnels at the other end of Waverley without any issue... Is there actually any part of the Thameslink core that is single-track bores?

 

[jon0844]

Furthermore, I've noticed that the front ends of the "Xtrapolis" units don't have doors: I've heard that all multiple units using single bore tunnels have to have an emergency exit at the front to allow access onto the track. Either this is an oversight on Alsthom's part or this regulation has been relaxed, I don't know which

It didn't need to be relaxed, as the section that needed front/rear access was on the way into Moorgate - and that section is closed now.

But, that said, surely trains into Moorgate on GN will need front/rear access - and isn't it one standard train design to be used throughout the new Thameslink route? Or will Finsbury Park - Moorgate have already gone over to London Overground by 2015 and use different rolling stock?