EMT service cancelled due to disorder.

[LowLevel]

In my experience of following my team all over the country, more people are amused and intrigued by football fans on trains than are intimidated. There can be quite good interaction between football fans and non-supporters. All the RUK members don't see this side though as they're locked in the back cab.

The vast majority of football fans are well behaved. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded.

I'm never locked in the back cab on any of my trains unless someone is actively attacking me (and last time that happened I was locked in the front cab with the driver with my size 12 against the door getting ready to hit a druggie with a fire extinguisher if he managed to break on - ironically given our current discussion a group of 6 Everton fans slung him out into the arms of the police!).

Neither was the train manager on a southbound service I used on Saturday - he was quite busy in the vestibules attempting to accommodate the numerous unhappy people requesting to be moved as they weren't enjoying their journey among the gentlemen roaming up and down the carriage making a row and spilling their beer everywhere When I left the train a lady with her little girl was objecting quite strongly to the conditions for her 3 figure ticket for 2 hours.

 

[Iskra]

I don't think sinking to the same level of generalisation as those you disapprove of is helpful or conducive to any meaningful discussion, do you?

How's it a generalisation? Look at the number of people who attend games versus the number of banning orders issued last year. It's a tiny minority. A huge number of people attend football every weekend, there are unfortunately going to be some idiots, but as already mentioned that's the same as almost any social activity where people might choose to have a drink. There's a weird mentality on here and in some other sectors of society that seem to equate football fans with viking invaders, it's not the 1980's anymore.

 

[STKKK46]

You’ll find the same conversation happens every time this topic comes up and it’s usually the same people. I’m fed up of being looked down on for being a football fan. It happens. Because the media report it and everyone assumes it’s true.

For some reason I can’t quote at the moment but someone made a very good point since my last post - whenever I’ve been on a train with football fans singing there’s a lot more intrigued looks than intimidated looks.

But it’s fine, let’s say football is stuck in the 80s when it is well and truly not.

 

[robbeech]

Ridiculous how these threads turn in to the same style of people tarnishing all football fans with the same brush. Every. Single. Time

I’d like you to take a moment to re read this thread. Go through it and read the posts by people on both sides of the fence and try to quote someone who has specifically tarnished all football fans with the same or even a similar colour brush.

I think what the keen football supporters here forget is that as they are very much used to the singing and chanting and quite forward behaviour that goes on in a football match, possibly participating in such activity themselves where deemed acceptable then they will be intimidated far less by it.
What is absolutely clear, at least to me is that this whole thing is a serious problem that needs addressing. It is one that has needed addressing for some time but nothing has been done about it.
It IS from experience a significant minority that will make noise on trains that is beyond what is deemed acceptable, but no more so than around other sporting events or nights out in towns and cities. However it is a very very small minority that cause additional issues such as violence, verbal abuse, vandalism, theft etc. This unfortunately does seem to be more noticeable with football supporters.
I suppose in reality if you have 300 people on a train, 200 are football supporters on the way home from a match, 150 of them do a bit of singing, 100 of them do some loud chanting that might have the odd swear word in it. It will only be a handful of them if any that go and raid the bar and vandalise the train but given the loud environment and the 150 of them doing a bit if singing it’s easy to see why the problem is assumed to be with more fans than it really is.

I remember in the new year boarding a train at Worksop that was full and standing with football supporters. On getting to Woodhouse a lady with a baby in a pushchair wanted to get on at the front doors, tgerecsimply wasn’t room. About 10 of the football fans got off the train to let her on and they waited for the next one (only 25 minutes later due to the Cleethorpes services). They were loud, they were singing, they were drinking, they were human beings.

There are significant problems that need to be addressed and I am not aware of anyone denying that here. Unfortunately we are not in a position where we can easily enforce a ban on the railway which is absolutely what these people who cause the REAL problems need and in reality that would only move the problem elsewhere.

 

[bb21]

How's it a generalisation? Look at the number of people who attend games versus the number of banning orders issued last year. It's a tiny minority. A huge number of people attend football every weekend, there are unfortunately going to be some idiots, but as already mentioned that's the same as almost any social activity where people might choose to have a drink. There's a weird mentality on here and in some other sectors of society that seem to equate football fans with viking invaders, it's not the 1980's anymore.

There is nothing wrong with that.

I refer you to your "locked in the back cab" comment.

 

[Iskra]

I'm never locked in the back cab on any of my trains unless someone is actively attacking me (and last time that happened I was locked in the front cab with the driver with my size 12 against the door getting ready to hit a druggie with a fire extinguisher if he managed to break on - ironically given our current discussion a group of 6 Everton fans slung him out into the arms of the police!).

Neither was the train manager on a southbound service I used on Saturday - he was quite busy in the vestibules attempting to accommodate the numerous unhappy people requesting to be moved as they weren't enjoying their journey among the gentlemen roaming up and down the carriage making a row and spilling their beer everywhere When I left the train a lady with her little girl was objecting quite strongly to the conditions for her 3 figure ticket for 2 hours.

An interesting example! Some football fans are bad. I get this. I work in a similar job, where I've had to deal with violence, at times on my own, at times spat at, it's not nice, but not all football fans are loutish thugs and thugs do come from other parts of society too, even railway enthusiasts as I witnessed this weekend.

There is nothing wrong with that.

I refer you to your "locked in the back cab" comment.

That was quite obviously tongue in cheek/a little bit of fishing. Obviously, the whole population of RUK couldn't fit in the back cab of a 156

- - - - - - - -

There is a wider problem here in my opinion. It's not about football fans. It's about the British relationship with alcohol. But, then you could say not all alcohol drinkers are thugs, and you'd be right.

 

[Stampy]

I am a football supporter that regularly travels by train...

Yes there are a few "idiots" out there who actively go out and look for a fight - but the large majority of us are decent people.

My days of drinking to excess are long gone, but it reminds me of a trip back from Swansea to London in about 2003/4

Myself and a few friends were coming back from a game at Swansea's Vetch Field where we'd gone and secured promotion, so were sinking (1 or 2) beers to celebrate - nothing too heavy as I had my 6-year old Godson with me.

Just after the train left Cardiff - some fans came along and "advised" us NOT to past the buffet car (the next carriage) - as they were scrapping with other supporters traveling back from Bristol......


Compare that to an incident I saw last year when a elderly gentleman collapsed on the platform at Stoke Station, and he was resuscitated by Stoke fans AND Arsenal fans who were waiting for a train.
People stopped "the banter" and were giving space for the "first Aiders" and phoning for help...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just a bit of experience in dealing hands on with the old Wembley - rugby and football. Much alcohol in many cases.

Never any major issues provided you had the right attitude and good planning. Yes I was brave enough to wear a gold braided cap and out on the platfrom with the staff and BTP.

Worst issues were generally New Years Eve drunks , and at one time there was a penchant for Ecstasy fulled raves in certain parts of the Home Counties which could have issues with early Sunday am services. That and the Tom Jones concert in Wembley.....

 

[bb21]

It IS from experience a significant minority that will make noise on trains that is beyond what is deemed acceptable, but no more so than around other sporting events or nights out in towns and cities. However it is a very very small minority that cause additional issues such as violence, verbal abuse, vandalism, theft etc. This unfortunately does seem to be more noticeable with football supporters.

Totally.

There is undeniably a small minority of followers during football season who are less than pleasant, but any use of the word "majority" as appeared before is incorrect.

Biased media portrayal definitely do not help, especially when hooliganism of the past is regularly brought up whenever any trouble is reported, as if there is not enough misinformation out there already. That does not happen when such idiots wear other tops off football season.

 

[bb21]

That was quite obviously tongue in cheek/a little bit of fishing. Obviously, the whole population of RUK couldn't fit in the back cab of a 156

I'm sure you can find a good handful on this forum who wouldn't mind.

There is a wider problem here in my opinion. It's not about football fans. It's about the British relationship with alcohol. But, then you could say not all alcohol drinkers are thugs, and you'd be right.

That is quite true. You usually need both alcohol and a crowd for things to kick off. Many of the idiots don't really have the guts to "big it up" when by themselves or when sober.

I don't think football followers in this country are anywhere near the worst behaved, especially when compared to many of the more "hardcore" crews on the continent. Things have mellowed much in the last 30 years but a small minority really do not help things.

Clubbers (I use the term loosely), stag/hen parties and "day-trippers" can all behave in an absolutely abhorrant way imo, topped by people who put their stinky shoes on seats.

 

[BestWestern]

In my experience of following my team all over the country, more people are amused and intrigued by football fans on trains than are intimidated. There can be quite good interaction between football fans and non-supporters. All the RUK members don't see this side though as they're locked in the back cab.

Yes, rowdy fans definitely have a far more accurate and better enlightened view than the staff who have to deal with them.

Superbly valuable and accurate input, round of applause....

 

[TheBambino25]

No, it isn't. But it should be. Why is football such a holy grail that everybody else just has to lump it while law and decency takes a back seat to something of zero real-world importance? Genuine question that.

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

No, it isn't. But it should be. Why is football such a holy grail that everybody else just has to lump it while law and decency takes a back seat to something of zero real-world importance? Genuine question that.

Why should it be? Ridiculous to even suggest.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

It’s nothing to with people being “scared of noise”. People are objecting to rowdy and extremely anti social behaviour exhibited by a minority of football fans. Up to and including violence and racist abuse to other passengers.

Why should it be? Ridiculous to even suggest.

This seems to contradict your first statement.

 

[robbeech]

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

Why should it be? Ridiculous to even suggest.

Scared by noise or scared by glass bottles flying around? Scared by the seats on fire? Scared by the violence happening in front of them?

Some will be intimidated by lots of loud shouting but most will just be a bit annoyed by it. When we escalate that to the behaviour (given as examples above and throughout this thread) we see from a handful of ‘supporters’ then it didn’t ought to be particularly tricky to see why this might be downright scary for some people.

Like I mentioned, it doesn’t scare people that are involved* so they don’t understand how it is perceived by others

* by involved I of course mean involved in supporting your local team, being on the train and having a friendly sing song rather than involved with the unacceptable behaviour.

 

[Mugby]

A couple of months ago, I travelled on a North East XC service from Birmingham on a Saturday evening which had a substantial number of fans returning home, I can't remember which club they were supporters of.

As soon as the train departed, the singing started, extremely loudly, containing many expletives and disgusting content - and I'm not easily shocked.
There were families with children in the same carriage and luckily a strong police presence.

Surprisingly, the situation was dealt with very effectively by a WPC who eyeballed each of the main perpetrators and issued a warning which went something like:
"The singing stops right now. If it doesn't, make no mistake, you will be put off the train at the next station (Burton) Your choice!"

You could almost feel the thought which went around the carriage 'Do we want to sing or do we want to get home'
The rest of the journey was peaceful and quiet and I was most impressed, it made me think that unpleasant situations can be dealt with if the resources are there and if the will is there.
Unfortunately, those two elements aren't always present.

 

[philthetube]

In my experience of following my team all over the country, more people are amused and intrigued by football fans on trains than are intimidated. There can be quite good interaction between football fans and non-supporters. All the RUK members don't see this side though as they're locked in the back cab.

The vast majority of football fans are well behaved. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded.

Is this implying that it is of if less then 50% of other passengers are intimidated, it is not acceptable for anyone to feel intimidated.

 

[staticsteve]

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

There's a few reasons why chanting and shouting is intimidating.

I'd say that chanting is a way of projecting dominance, stength and masculinity. It's natural for people to be intimidated by this.

Another reason is that it's a sign of lacking inhibition, often fueled by alcohol. It's uncomfortable to be around people who are uninhibited, because their behaviour appears irrational and unpredictable. I.e. the worry about "what are they going to do next?".

Yet another reason is that chanting effectively claims territory of a space. People who aren't of the same 'tribe' are naturally going to feel intimidated by this.

An example of all of this is I was on a east coast train about 4 yeaes ago with my girlfriend. There were Luton fans standing in the vestibule chanting. It was clear that people felt intimared - nobody used the toilets in that vestibule for the whole journey, aside from one girl who apparently wasn't intimated, but came back to the carriage on the brink of tears.

I certainly felt intimidated, even more so as it appeared they had 'clocked' us when we got on, possibly because of my longish hair my girlfriend's race.

 

[BestWestern]

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

Why should it be? Ridiculous to even suggest.

Not ridiculous. Perhaps offensive if you're a football fan, certainly not ridiculous. The 'importance' of somebody's little game of kickabout is many leagues below the right of society in general not to have to tolerate what is very obviously widespread unacceptable conduct every weekend. If that little game of kickabout cannot take place without morons causing society a significant nuisance on a regular basis, then either a different approach needs to be taken by those who profit out of it, or it needs to simply not happen. As I said previously, the concept that the a football game must happen and everything else must bend around that, is utter bulls**t.

 

[Iskra]

Yes, rowdy fans definitely have a far more accurate and better enlightened view than the staff who have to deal with them.

Superbly valuable and accurate input, round of applause....

Pot, kettle, black. The vast majority go to football without being rowdy.

The 'staff who have to deal with them' knowingly chose to work in a public facing role.

Is this implying that it is of if less then 50% of other passengers are intimidated, it is not acceptable for anyone to feel intimidated.

No I agree, but if you go on public transport, or even leave the safety of your own home, there is a risk you might encounter someone unpleasant.

 

[LordCreed]

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

It's more than just being scared of noise. People travel on trains for a variety of reasons, and certainly for me the biggest reason is that I'm able to work or sleep on the train. Something I can't do when driving. However, when some football fans join the service and make it impossible to work or sleep then it's a wasted journey as I might as well just driven (which can be far quicker down here).

Last week I was onboard a TPE service where the loud chanting kept waking up a baby and causing him to cry, not a pleasant experience for the baby or the mum. It's so often I see people move carriages when chanting starts.

It surprises me that even on here there are a number of people that think chanting is perfectly acceptable. After all, they're clearly the only person on the train.

 

[DarloRich]

It surprises me that even on here there are a number of people that think chanting is perfectly acceptable. After all, they're clearly the only person on the train.

I find it supposing there are so many meek, lily livered wets on this board who get frightened by a bit of noise. It is hardly as if people get on the train at Newcastle and sing all the way to London!

BTW you get on a train to sleep at 17:00 on a Saturday afternoon? Really?

 

[LordCreed]

I find it supposing there are so many meek, lily livered wets on this board who get frightened by a bit of noise. It is hardly as if people get on the train at Newcastle and sing all the way to London!

BTW you get on a train to sleep at 17:00 on a Saturday afternoon? Really?

Always good to see a post resort to name calling because someone disagrees with you. However I have experienced the joys of chanting for two hours on a TPE service out of Newcastle. Likewise between London and Swansea, or Stourbridge and High Wycombe. None of these are short journeys.

No, I sleep on the trains when they all go home. Also, in the case of Stourbridge vs High Wycombe it was around 10am when we departed Stourbridge with the loud chanting...

 

[DarloRich]

Always good to see a post resort to name calling because someone disagrees with you. However I have experienced the joys of chanting for two hours on a TPE service out of Newcastle. Likewise between London and Swansea, or Stourbridge and High Wycombe. None of these are short journeys.

No, I sleep on the trains when they all go home. Also, in the case of Stourbridge vs High Wycombe it was around 10am when we departed Stourbridge with the loud chanting...

Course you have. two hours solid? Really? I think not. BTW - who are High Wycombe?

 

[Iskra]

It's more than just being scared of noise. People travel on trains for a variety of reasons, and certainly for me the biggest reason is that I'm able to work or sleep on the train. Something I can't do when driving. However, when some football fans join the service and make it impossible to work or sleep then it's a wasted journey as I might as well just driven (which can be far quicker down here).

Last week I was onboard a TPE service where the loud chanting kept waking up a baby and causing him to cry, not a pleasant experience for the baby or the mum. It's so often I see people move carriages when chanting starts.

It surprises me that even on here there are a number of people that think chanting is perfectly acceptable. After all, they're clearly the only person on the train.

Public transport. I can't sleep or work on trains when people have loud conversations, play music/watch videos out loud, can't control their children, get in my personal space with their laptops, cocoon me in their wires and need to grab something out of their luggage every five minutes. I know this before I choose to make my journey and I know that I can take my chances, move seats, pay a premium to avoid this in first class or travel via a different method. It's common sense. Buying a ticket does not make the train your personal office or library.

 

[Robertj21a]

I find it supposing there are so many meek, lily livered wets on this board who get frightened by a bit of noise. It is hardly as if people get on the train at Newcastle and sing all the way to London!

BTW you get on a train to sleep at 17:00 on a Saturday afternoon? Really?

But it's not 'just a bit of noise' is it ?

It's loud, usually drink-fuelled, swear-laden and intimidatory. It can ruin the trip for women and families.

Why do the 'normal' travellers have to put up with that

 

[LordCreed]

Buying a ticket does not make the train your personal office or library.

I never said it did. I'm currently travelling on a train at the moment. People are talking, there's a child being excited to her mum and I can hear the buffet staff chatting. It doesn't bother me one little bit, as that's what you expect when booking a train ticket.

However there's an absolute world of difference between normal noise and the likes of chanting or singing (football fans or not).

 

[Darandio]

And still the major concentration of the thread focuses on noisy football fans with the majority ignoring the fact that other groups can be just as bad, or worse! But, when the agenda suits.....

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

But it's not 'just a bit of noise' is it ?

It's loud, usually drink-fuelled, swear-laden and intimidatory. It can ruin the trip for women and families.

Why do the 'normal' travellers have to put up with that

It is 2018......I don't think women would like to be treated any different to anyone else. Very sexist comment.

 

[BestWestern]

Pot, kettle, black. The vast majority go to football without being rowdy.

The 'staff who have to deal with them' knowingly chose to work in a public facing role.

You're all over the shop with your flailing defence here; put the shovel down for a bit!

Clearly, there are those who feel that the stereotypical football crowd rowdy behaviour is perfectly acceptable on a train and sod everybody else (football fans mostly it would appear, quelle surprise!), and there are those who feel that people should in fact have a modicum of decency and show a tad of respect to those with whom they are sharing a train. I don't think we're all going to reach agreement on the matter, so it's probably not a bad idea to agree to disagree in a gentlemanly fashion, roll the sleeves back down and go and talk about trains or something!

I'm off for a dose of wibble and froth

 

[Iskra]

You're all over the shop with your flailing defence here; put the shovel down for a bit!

Clearly, there are those who feel that the stereotypical football crowd rowdy behaviour is perfectly acceptable on a train and sod everybody else (football fans mostly it would appear, quelle surprise!), and there are those who feel that people should in fact have a modicum of decency and show a tad of respect to those with whom they are sharing a train. I don't think we're all going to reach agreement on the matter, so it's probably not a bad idea to agree to disagree in a gentlemanly fashion, roll the sleeves back down and go and talk about trains or something!

The stereotyping on here is exactly what the issue is.