EMT service cancelled due to disorder.

[Silver Cobra]

I have to say, I'm grateful that Great Northern run their fast services on a Saturday evening, where the first call northbound is at Biggleswade. During the football season, rather than purchasing a ticket with the origin as Arlesey, I always pay the extra 50p-£1 for one from Biggleswade, to allow me to use those services on my return journey (and either getting a lift home from Biggleswade or buying a single back to Arlesey). This avoids travelling on the crush-loaded services from Finsbury Park as Arsenal fans make their way from the Emirates back home. Now, it's not to say that the Arsenal fans are a nasty bunch or anything, as when I have travelled on those services they've generally been rather pleasant. But for the extra 50p-£1 it costs, it's better to travel on a quieter and emptier service.

 

[Bromley boy]

racist, abusive, foul mouthed er "singing" seems to be the norm in my part of the world. I quickly learnt that careful reading of local teams fixtures mitigates the problem.

My ex certainly got the bad end of that a few years back, at London Bridge.

If the drunken chavs that racially abused her had stopped to ask what she did for a living they’d have discovered that, aged 28, she was a VP at an investment bank, pulling in precisely one more six figure salary than they ever will in their sad little lives.

Absolute idiots.

 

[philthetube]

Apart from the ones banned from their own ground earlier this season.

The vast majority of fans from all clubs behave exceptionally well year in, year out.

If the majority are behaving exceptionally well, the rest must be diabolical, good behaviour should not be exceptional.

Bit hard when your regular traction is 15x Sprinters where you have to be in the saloon to close the doors and when parking up a train and demanding police assistance is frowned upon by all concerned...

Health and safety at work, if you feel unsafe you dont do it and let the company sort out the mess, any argument, involve the union.

Do agree though, fans cause trouble next home game played at empty stadium, soon be sorted.

 

[causton]

Even non-disruptive fans make me nervous, because the rate of football fans who are disruptive is much much higher than the rate of random members of the public who are disruptive.

I agree 100%. And I don't care if people don't agree with me but it really puts a downer on your day. Much of the time they come in, shouting and screaming, making your life a misery, on the way back even louder, screaming and shouting and arguing about what manager is best at a hundred decibels, swearing at children, throwing bottles...

Two sound clips attached of a 'mild' night. They were this loud for the whole trip home, straddling first class with children and families right beside them.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CtnYKzyUmls5S9icpZXR337cHLDhO9b6
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z3dZcsRA7-yzdryMMoEJV7jboAj9giig

 

[bunnahabhain]

Aka people having a fun day out should meet with your own personal approval before being allowed out eh? Perhaps they should all sing kumbaya hold hands and drink chamomile tea like a mothers union outing. Why is it some many posters here dislike people having fun?

Should people be allowed to have fun at the expense of other people feeling intimidated and scared, and not having 'fun' themselves.

 

[bb21]

Being louder than normal is exactly what the majority of members here mean. They have no idea what they are on about.

Being louder than normal is exactly how some forum members behave, especially when in a small crowd, let alone a big crowd. Selected forum outings in First Class were not devoid of disapproved looks from other punters.

I must be doing it wrong too generally being reserved and only chatting to other well-behaved fans.

But those causing trouble really should be dealt with in the strongest terms possible. FWIW I do agree that loud chanting and singing should not be permitted and offenders dealt with in line with other people causing a nuisance on trains. Offenders allegedly following certain clubs can be very very intimidating with their frequently racist, sexist and homophobic chanting. All clubs have idiots in their alleged followers, some more than others.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There was a major incident on the MML pre Bedpan days when some ex Luton game (not neccesarily Luton themselves) , burned out a complete 115 DMU set enroute back to SPX , along with a horrendous brawl at the terminus........really scary.

That was Chelsea, back in the days when they were one of the absolute worse for hooliganism: long before the fire was started all the seats had been launched out through the windows. High ticket prices at Stamford Bridge have been rather effective in persuading the yobs to find something else to do at match times.

More generally there is no doubt that the football authorities, as well as the clubs themselves, have become somewhat complacent about hooliganism. Stewarding and policing at grounds is mostly very effective at preventing anything other than minor scuffles though more serious incidents still occur from time to time, as happened at Wigan and West Ham this season. Those who attach themselves to football just as a way of developing a tribal group for the purposes of making trouble are very careful to ensure this trouble occurs well away from any ground. Unfortunately railway stations and trains are just the sorts of places where relatively confined spaces guarantee the proximity that these people need to carry out their desired actions. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if last weekend's disorder was planned in advance: West Ham's organised hooligan gang have a long history of such premeditation.

The limited resources available to deal with what in policing terms are mostly low-level crimes means that it's very difficult to completely stamp out football related yobbery, though of course other sporting events are not entirely immune from it. Perhaps one option to consider would be to enforce kick-off times of say 9.30am for expected problem games.

 

[farleigh]

Sounds to me like this is too much to expect railway staff to deal with, but that the police and legal system are failing to deal with this problem when it arises.

 

[BestWestern]

That's not how football works....

No, it isn't. But it should be. Why is football such a holy grail that everybody else just has to lump it while law and decency takes a back seat to something of zero real-world importance? Genuine question that.

 

[BestWestern]

You are entitled to your opinion but it is not one I can agree with. I am a football fan. I haven't ever had a fight or set out to have one. Am I doing this wrong?



This is preposterous. There is relatively little crime and disorder at football. Those of us who go every week know this. Perhaps all forms of association or fun should be banned.

Yes, definitely going at it all wrong, you're supposed to go with a nazi flag and a large spanner in your pocket

On a serious note, what I'm on about is the wider issue and associated costs. Fans may well behave once they're in the ground, but the cost to society of getting them there and back is not small. I've no idea who your team is, what the turnout is like or how active the yobbo branch of the supporters' club is, but certainly on the railway many games attract a vast police presence to keep the peace. Presumably it is felt necessary to take that approach, rather than it just being a load of coppers turning up for the fun of it. That tells you something, do you not think? And then of course there are those games where the police presence is duly disregarded, and those jolly football chaps head into pitched battle with each other en masse. That's even more expensive. The moral of the story here is that by staging a match, there is a direct significant cost, due either to mass disorder or the prevention of it, which would not exist if that match wasn't being played. Football clubs make money from that match. Society has to foot the bill for the accepted problems it causes. That isn't really on, is it.

 

[bb21]

Perhaps the bill each club gets from the local plod for policing each game should be extended to include other additional staffing as a direct result of potential trouble such as BTP presence on trains and stations, with a fixed proportion of that paid by the club and the rest footed jointly by the PL, FL and FA.

 

[222001]

Whenever planning rail journeys, I always lookup football fixtures to avoid stuff like this. I'd rather drive than put up with the a train full of fans returning home. As has been previously stated it is very much the few that ruin it.

 

[Poolie]

So is this doubly intimidating............football fans AND clowns !!!!

 

[DarloRich]

But those causing trouble really should be dealt with in the strongest terms possible. FWIW I do agree that loud chanting and singing should not be permitted and offenders dealt with in line with other people causing a nuisance on trains. Offenders allegedly following certain clubs can be very very intimidating with their frequently racist, sexist and homophobic chanting. All clubs have idiots in their alleged followers, some more than others.

I agree that trouble makers should be dealt with harshly. I do not agree that someone signing or chanting ( unless it is disgustingly obscene or overtly racist) should be hauled of to chokey.

On a serious note, what I'm on about is the wider issue and associated costs. Fans may well behave once they're in the ground, but the cost to society of getting them there and back is not small. I've no idea who your team is, what the turnout is like or how active the yobbo branch of the supporters' club is, but certainly on the railway many games attract a vast police presence to keep the peace. Presumably it is felt necessary to take that approach, rather than it just being a load of coppers turning up for the fun of it. That tells you something, do you not think? And then of course there are those games where the police presence is duly disregarded, and those jolly football chaps head into pitched battle with each other en masse. That's even more expensive. The moral of the story here is that by staging a match, there is a direct significant cost, due either to mass disorder or the prevention of it, which would not exist if that match wasn't being played. Football clubs make money from that match. Society has to foot the bill for the accepted problems it causes. That isn't really on, is it.

I don't necessarily disagree with the general point however I suspect your hope in suggesting this idea is that it would drive clubs out of business I would be happy to see the clubs carry some more of the policing costs as long as that was proportionate to either the numbers travelling and/or the numbers of arrests. The costs of policing Manchester United are of a different order to the costs of policing a Darlington or Bury or Oldham or even a Middlebsrough.

I would also point out that it is very hard for the clubs ( or any business) to control the actions of their customers (or employees for that matter) once they are out of their direct control. At what point does the chain of responsibility begin & end? Is that different for other troublesome businesses such as alcohol? Would you , for instance, say that Scottish and Newcastle Breweries should pay for the costs of any trouble (or health care) that could be attributed to excessive alcohol? I see much more trouble in towns on a weekend night than I have ever seen at football.

Finally, much of the basis for your view is about 30 years out of date. I suspect you don't go to many matches. There are few "pitched battles" either at the ground or on the way to it. Those of us that do go every week know this.

So is this doubly intimidating............football fans AND clowns !!!!

You did let a clown take over your club so that is quite fitting!

 

[WelshBluebird]

God help how some of the people in this thread would react to being on a train to the valleys from Cardiff on a rugby day! Singing, drinking, having fun? How dare you! (Incidentally, I have seen much much worse behaviour from people travelling to and from rugby in Cardiff and Twickenham than I have to and from any football game, including someone trying to pee out of the drop window of a HST, only for it to just fly back in at him).

 

[unslet]

What a thoroughly depressing thread. My admiration for people,be they railway employees,shopkeepers,or ordinary members of the public,who are forced to put up with this nonsense,is considerable. I have seen poor behaviour from tanked up horse racing and rugby fans,but none of this comes close to that exhibited by football supporters.
The football establishment tries to pretend that hooliganism is a thing of the past,who are they kidding?
It appears to me that there are basically 3 factors which create this poor behaviour,ie alcohol,male testosterone( for want of a better phrase) and groups of people crammed together.
I do not pretend to have any answers.All I know is that society is generally happy for someone else to do the dirty work,for example train crews on match days or prison officers keeping unsavoury characters of the streets and out of our consciousness.
We do not seem to want to tackle the problem seriously,so I fear it will just continue as it has for the past 50 years or so.

 

[AlterEgo]

What a thoroughly depressing thread. My admiration for people,be they railway employees,shopkeepers,or ordinary members of the public,who are forced to put up with this nonsense,is considerable. I have seen poor behaviour from tanked up horse racing and rugby fans,but none of this comes close to that exhibited by football supporters.
The football establishment tries to pretend that hooliganism is a thing of the past,who are they kidding?
It appears to me that there are basically 3 factors which create this poor behaviour,ie alcohol,male testosterone( for want of a better phrase) and groups of people crammed together.
I do not pretend to have any answers.All I know is that society is generally happy for someone else to do the dirty work,for example train crews on match days or prison officers keeping unsavoury characters of the streets and out of our consciousness.
We do not seem to want to tackle the problem seriously,so I fear it will just continue as it has for the past 50 years or so.

I've seen equally bad behaviour from football fans, rugby fans, racegoers, hen parties, stag parties - in fact a myriad of groups of people.

Boozed up and loud football fans are common across the western world. I'd be interested to read what the solution is?

 

[Jonfun]

There is no perfect solution, but amongst other things, proper crowd control measures being put in place, restriction of consumption of alcohol, dispersal of groups, effective policing of passengers at the station prior to boarding (if they're drunk and chanting on the platform they aren't going to sit down with a coffee and a shortbread doing their sudoku when they get on the train), can minimise the risk of disruptive behaviour.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

What a thoroughly depressing thread. My admiration for people,be they railway employees,shopkeepers,or ordinary members of the public,who are forced to put up with this nonsense,is considerable. I have seen poor behaviour from tanked up horse racing and rugby fans,but none of this comes close to that exhibited by football supporters.
The football establishment tries to pretend that hooliganism is a thing of the past,who are they kidding?
It appears to me that there are basically 3 factors which create this poor behaviour,ie alcohol,male testosterone( for want of a better phrase) and groups of people crammed together.
I do not pretend to have any answers.All I know is that society is generally happy for someone else to do the dirty work,for example train crews on match days or prison officers keeping unsavoury characters of the streets and out of our consciousness.
We do not seem to want to tackle the problem seriously,so I fear it will just continue as it has for the past 50 years or so.

Let's not try and make football fans the worst. Horse racing meetings are getting worse and worse...... did you see the 50 person brawl at "Glorious Goodwood" where they kicked an already unconscious man in the head and continued to fight all around for around ten minutes as they don't have any security to speak of. York, Aintree and Chester have seen similar. But rarely get a mention. Football considering the amount of games throughout the leagues and the amount of people attending week in week out I think is pretty well behaved if a bit of singing is the worst that you come across and upsets you so much. You really haven't many serious issues in your life and should think yourself lucky.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5699371/Racegoer-kicks-HEAD-lays-ground-Goodwood.html

 

[Clip]

I'm afraid I can't agree. It is wrong to say everyone who likes football is a hooligan, but I'm afraid it is by no means "quite a minority". A significant minority, at best. A small majority, at worst. I think if you saw the misery football fans cause to other passengers and staff travelling by train your opinion may differ.

No, ive never been to a football match on the train ever. Not once.

Small Majority then - so tell me oh wise one - ST James' can fit in 50 thousand plus into its grounds - what small majority are you talking here? Remember majority means the greater part of the number so you are telling me that over 25000 fans cause nuisance on a train every 2 weeks? One would say you are, quite rightly, talking a heap of rubbish.

 

[Eccles1983]

Give me a train full off football fans over the ale trail in the summer.

Or that brass band that decide to get on occationally and deafen everyone thinking they are in tune.

 

[ashworth]

Whenever planning rail journeys, I always lookup football fixtures to avoid stuff like this. I'd rather drive than put up with the a train full of fans returning home. As has been previously stated it is very much the few that ruin it.

I compeletely agree. I also try to avoid rail travel on certain routes on Saturday evenings. It is just so unpleasant and can feel intimidating when hoards of chanting football fans suddenly board the train. If I feel like this as 60 year old male passenger, how is it for families with young children who are stuck in a crowded train of football fans with their drinking and bad language. You can’t even avoid it by sitting in the Quiet Coach, if there is one, as rail staff are not able to control the situation and usually have to ignore it.
I also agree it’s not just football fans. Other large groups of loud badly behaved passengers can be just as unpleasant. Don’t start me on having to sit in a carriage where someone for the whole journey is talking very loudly on a mobile phone or those who don’t control their children’s behaviour. Perhaps I am just turning into a miserable old git!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The summer seems to have arrived this last weekend, so there's ample opportunity for those of you who seem to think that football fans are the worst offenders to be proven wrong: all you need do is catch any Saturday service from anywhere between Leeds and Stalybridge. Even if there's football on, the ale-trail troublemakers (who, by the way, don't represent all ale-trailers just as with football fans) are far more disruptive.

As for the families with children, you do realise they may also be going to the football, right?

 

[bb21]

God help how some of the people in this thread would react to being on a train to the valleys from Cardiff on a rugby day! Singing, drinking, having fun? How dare you! (Incidentally, I have seen much much worse behaviour from people travelling to and from rugby in Cardiff and Twickenham than I have to and from any football game, including someone trying to pee out of the drop window of a HST, only for it to just fly back in at him).

The real issue here is really loutish behaviour rather than football followers. The sport they allegedly follow is irrelevant.

Especially in the summer, the troublemakers have to have something else to follow/use as an excuse once the football season is over.

 

[STKKK46]

The reason people get intimidated is pretty simple. They can’t let go of the past. Violence was quite a thing 20-40 years ago in football including on trains. Now? People board a train and have a drink and a sing song... if they’re wearing an England football shirts, it’s hooliganism. If they’re wearing England rugby shirts, it’s all a great laugh.

Ridiculous how these threads turn in to the same style of people tarnishing all football fans with the same brush. Every. Single. Time.

If you don’t like it and you don’t travel because of it, it’s probably for the best. God forbid you ever need to travel in the south west when England play at Twickenham.

 

[BestWestern]

The reason people get intimidated is pretty simple. They can’t let go of the past. Violence was quite a thing 20-40 years ago in football including on trains. Now? People board a train and have a drink and a sing song... if they’re wearing an England football shirts, it’s hooliganism. If they’re wearing England rugby shirts, it’s all a great laugh.

Ridiculous how these threads turn in to the same style of people tarnishing all football fans with the same brush. Every. Single. Time.

If you don’t like it and you don’t travel because of it, it’s probably for the best. God forbid you ever need to travel in the south west when England play at Twickenham.

Eh? People get intimidated because loud, boisterous groups of shouting, swearing, alcohol-fuelled people who very obviously have no respect for anybody else around them, is rather intimidating!

There will, clearly, never be a forum agreement on this, but I really would challenge those who think that behaving like a bunch of hollering yobs on a train full of other people is absolutely fine, and indeed have the audacity to assert that it is those other people who have a problem if they find it objectionable, really ought to take a step back and evaluate their level of respect and general consideration for those who they share their society with. Seriously!

 

[Robertj21a]

The reason people get intimidated is pretty simple. They can’t let go of the past. Violence was quite a thing 20-40 years ago in football including on trains. Now? People board a train and have a drink and a sing song... if they’re wearing an England football shirts, it’s hooliganism. If they’re wearing England rugby shirts, it’s all a great laugh.

Ridiculous how these threads turn in to the same style of people tarnishing all football fans with the same brush. Every. Single. Time.

If you don’t like it and you don’t travel because of it, it’s probably for the best. God forbid you ever need to travel in the south west when England play at Twickenham.

You seem to overlook that every passenger should feel safe and secure when travelling by public transport. Clearly, many people are concerned by loud and boisterous activities while they are just trying to get from A to B - why should they have to put up with it ?

 

[bb21]

The reason people get intimidated is pretty simple. They can’t let go of the past.

Wrong. The reason people are intimidated is usually because the behaviour on show is intimidating. I wouldn't take notice of some people who have never been anywhere near football crowds, but many of the views expressed in this thread stem from real experiences. Some elements of supposed football "following" appear as if they are stuck in the 1970s.

It is also worth remembering that football support can be quite territorial. Some even annoy their own fellow fans at the same club, get aggressive towards them and/or cause them no end of trouble. The nasty side of the football crowd has survived to date, albeit in a much smaller minority, and every club has them, to varying degrees.

Violence was quite a thing 20-40 years ago in football including on trains. Now? People board a train and have a drink and a sing song...

They can have a singsong in a private environment all they like. Amongst other customers they need to show consideration and respect by not causing unnecessary noise at high volume. This is simply good manners.

It may not appear so to you but 10+ grown-up men all drinking and singing in sync at the top of their coarse voice can be very intimidating to many people not familiar with the sub-culture, and indeed so in any environment.

if they’re wearing an England football shirts, it’s hooliganism. If they’re wearing England rugby shirts, it’s all a great laugh.

If they are wearing rugby shirts and exhibit the same behaviour, they need to be dealt with in the same way.

Ridiculous how these threads turn in to the same style of people tarnishing all football fans with the same brush. Every. Single. Time.

That is partially true, I think, however you need to ignore the generalisation and look at the other things people are saying.

If you don’t like it and you don’t travel because of it, it’s probably for the best. God forbid you ever need to travel in the south west when England play at Twickenham.

Now you come to mention it, I have probably thrown more drunken rugby "fans" off the train than football "fans", but that just reinforces my point. Exhibit unacceptable behaviour and you're off. The sport matters not one jot.

 

[Iskra]

In my experience of following my team all over the country, more people are amused and intrigued by football fans on trains than are intimidated. There can be quite good interaction between football fans and non-supporters. All the RUK members don't see this side though as they're locked in the back cab.

The vast majority of football fans are well behaved. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded.

 

[bb21]

I don't think sinking to the same level of generalisation as those you disapprove of is helpful or conducive to any meaningful discussion, do you?