EMT service cancelled due to disorder.

[SPADTrap]

Sadly they aren't "lunatics", but normal functioning people who simply view their vile behaviour as a staple part of their day out at the footy, such is the abhorrent culture that has built up around the game and continues to linger today. Other sports have fans who get drunk and rowdy, but the 'football problem' is very different. All too often isn't spontaneous, 'heat of the moment' stuff, it's entirely premeditated and seen as a central part of being a 'fan'.

I'm just waiting for the hopeful prosecutions to out some embarrassed city worker but then again seeing those involved I don't imagine they will amount to much.

 

[BestWestern]

Should the FA be liable for compensation to EMT?

The FA and their clubs should very definitely be held far more liable for the disruption they cause and the enormous cost of dealing with it, yes. Particularly sickening are those games which are known to be highly likely to result in conflict and violence due to particular club rivalries, and which are allowed to go ahead regardless. The police do not have the resources for this utter nonsense, and in any other scenario the staging of such an event would be deemed utterly reckless and prevented from going ahead. Football is not a special case, and it's high time it stopped being treated as such.

The crime and disorder factor needs a far greater emphasis in football, and perhaps it's time fixtures were subject to an assessment, meaning that games which result in enormous clashes of boneheaded halfwits battering one another simply aren't allowed to be repeated, ever. Those clubs with particularly idiotic followers would end up playing fewer and fewer matches and maybe eventually the message would get through.

 

[TheBambino25]

The FA and their clubs should very definitely be held far more liable for the disruption they cause and the enormous cost of dealing with it, yes. Particularly sickening are those games which are known to be highly likely to result in conflict and violence due to particular club rivalries, and which are allowed to go ahead regardless. The police do not have the resources for this utter nonsense, and in any other scenario the staging of such an event would be deemed utterly reckless and prevented from going ahead. Football is not a special case, and it's high time it stopped being treated as such.

The crime and disorder factor needs a far greater emphasis in football, and perhaps it's time fixtures were subject to an assessment, meaning that games which result in enormous clashes of boneheaded halfwits battering one another simply aren't allowed to be repeated, ever. Those clubs with particularly idiotic followers would end up playing fewer and fewer matches and maybe eventually the message would get through.

That's not how football works....

 

[Jonfun]

Absolute nonsense to suggest that.

Get on any football train and I can assure you the fans will not be sat in seats quietly drinking cups of tea keeping themselves to tjemselves. To suggest otherwise, in my opinion, is naieve.

 

[LowLevel]

Get on any football train and I can assure you the fans will not be sat in seats quietly drinking cups of tea keeping themselves to tjemselves. To suggest otherwise, in my opinion, is naieve.

Absolutely. They can't go 5 minutes without singing or shouting. As soon as they step off the train the chanting starts. It's intimidating and unpleasant for those of us who deal with it constantly and it's awful for unwitting passengers who get caught up with it.

Why is singing football songs and chanting on a train acceptable when it's in breach of the byelaws?

I wish I was more than a lone person with a cheap shirt, name badge and a ticket machine. Some of the conditions on these trains are horrendous. There aren't enough police to deal with it and most of it just gets left alone because it's too much effort/risk to prevent it.

For the avoidance of doubt I work through a whole host of football cities and I long for the end of the season. I actually check the fixtures before the weekend to see I've got lucky or not.

 

[Mojo]

Even non-disruptive fans make me nervous, because the rate of football fans who are disruptive is much much higher than the rate of random members of the public who are disruptive.

I agree. Only have to look at the number of them who randomly scream and shout in public. Some of them were broadcast on national TV during the Paddington series last week.

 

[Darandio]

Get on any football train and I can assure you the fans will not be sat in seats quietly drinking cups of tea keeping themselves to tjemselves. To suggest otherwise, in my opinion, is naieve.

And it still isn't the majority of football fans involved, whether that is your small majority, medium, large or whatever.

 

[AlterEgo]

Get on any football train and I can assure you the fans will not be sat in seats quietly drinking cups of tea keeping themselves to tjemselves. To suggest otherwise, in my opinion, is naieve.

That’s not the same as suggesting that possibly a “significant minority” and potentially even a “majority” of football fans like hooliganism. I’ve been on plenty of football trains.

It’s nonsense. The vast majority of football fans who go to games aren’t hooligans. It’s only on a minority of trains in my experience that there’s been what I’d call hooliganism (which by the way is quite a bit more than just “being louder than normal”).

 

[aylesbury]

In the seventies I was waiting for a train at Chesterfield on a Saturday evening when the staff came along and asked everyone to go into the waiting room as a footex was on the way.Passage through the platform was accompanied by numerous light bulbs fire exstingiushers thrown from the train and scenes of a pitched battle in the coaches , what a way to behave.

 

[DarloRich]

I know my views on this topic are not popular here as I go against the all football is evil and all football fans are scum who should be horsewhipped RUK consensus but here goes:

Even non-disruptive fans make me nervous, because the rate of football fans who are disruptive is much much higher than the rate of random members of the public who are disruptive.

I agree. Only have to look at the number of them who randomly scream and shout in public. Some of them were broadcast on national TV during the Paddington series last week.

the world must terrify you. Noise and people scare you? Really? How do you cope with life? Do you ever leave home?

Sadly they aren't "lunatics", but normal functioning people who simply view their vile behaviour as a staple part of their day out at the footy, such is the abhorrent culture that has built up around the game and continues to linger today. Other sports have fans who get drunk and rowdy, but the 'football problem' is very different. All too often it isn't spontaneous, 'heat of the moment' stuff, it's entirely premeditated and seen as a central part of being a 'fan'. If the football authorities could be distracted from drooling over their huge piles of cash for a short while, perhaps some sharp action could be taken in an attempt to finally curb that rotten culture, but sadly that seems to be incredibly low on their list of priorities.

You are entitled to your opinion but it is not one I can agree with. I am a football fan. I haven't ever had a fight or set out to have one. Am I doing this wrong?

The FA and their clubs should very definitely be held far more liable for the disruption they cause and the enormous cost of dealing with it, yes. Particularly sickening are those games which are known to be highly likely to result in conflict and violence due to particular club rivalries, and which are allowed to go ahead regardless. The police do not have the resources for this utter nonsense, and in any other scenario the staging of such an event would be deemed utterly reckless and prevented from going ahead. Football is not a special case, and it's high time it stopped being treated as such.

The crime and disorder factor needs a far greater emphasis in football, and perhaps it's time fixtures were subject to an assessment, meaning that games which result in enormous clashes of boneheaded halfwits battering one another simply aren't allowed to be repeated, ever. Those clubs with particularly idiotic followers would end up playing fewer and fewer matches and maybe eventually the message would get through.

This is preposterous. There is relatively little crime and disorder at football. Those of us who go every week know this. Perhaps all forms of association or fun should be banned.

Absolutely. They can't go 5 minutes without singing or shouting. As soon as they step off the train the chanting starts. It's intimidating and unpleasant for those of us who deal with it constantly and it's awful for unwitting passengers who get caught up with it.

Why is singing football songs and chanting on a train acceptable when it's in breach of the byelaws?

I wish I was more than a lone person with a cheap shirt, name badge and a ticket machine. Some of the conditions on these trains are horrendous. There aren't enough police to deal with it and most of it just gets left alone because it's too much effort/risk to prevent it.

For the avoidance of doubt I work through a whole host of football cities and I long for the end of the season. I actually check the fixtures before the weekend to see I've got lucky or not.

Aka people having a fun day out should meet with your own personal approval before being allowed out eh? Perhaps they should all sing kumbaya hold hands and drink chamomile tea like a mothers union outing. Why is it some many posters here dislike people having fun?

A bit of signing and people should be locked away? Intimidating? For goodness sake.

I will state again for the avoidance of doubt that anyone causing real trouble should be dealt with harshly. it is clear that the reports above OBVIOUSLY fall into this category. It needs dealing with and dealing with harshly.

(which by the way is quite a bit more than just “being louder than normal”).

Being louder than normal is exactly what the majority of members here mean. They have no idea what they are on about.

 

[Bromley boy]

I know my views on this topic are not popular here as I go against the all football is evil and all football fans are scum who should be horsewhipped RUK consensue but here goes:





the world must terrify you. Noise and people scare you? Really? How do you cope with life? Do you ever leave home?



You are entitled to your opinion but it not one I can agree with. I I am a football fan. I haven't ever had a fight.



This is preposterous. There is relatively little crime and disorder at football. Those of us who go every week know this. Perhaps all forms of association or fun should be banned.



Aka people having a fun day out should meet with your own personal approval before being allowed out eh? Perhaps they should all sing kumbaya hold hands and drink chamomile tea like a mothers union outing. Why is it some many posters here dislike people having fun?

A bit of signing and people should be locked away? Intimidating? For goodness sake.

I will state again for the avoidance of doubt that anyone causing real trouble should be dealt with harshly. it is clear that the reports above OBVIOUSLY fall into this category. It needs dealing with and dealing with harshly.

That said those of us who go every week ( and go by train) know that this kind of trouble is rare and what it really looks like.


Being louder than normal is exactly what the majority of members here mean. They have no idea what they are on about.

I always enjoy your thunderingly brilliant postings. This one is no exception.

Bravo, chap.

 

[LowLevel]

Because, sir, as I've mentioned over the last few years I've had to deal with the bottles being thrown over the tracks by rival fans, the other intimidated passengers telling me to sort them out, a few weeks ago we had terrified kids on a day out who had spent 20 minutes on a train with some Derby fans hiding in our mess room to avoid the tide of noise while the train they smashed up was taken down the depot for repairs.

I've had the rival groups meet and act like cavemen.

Every time Norwich play Ipswich they have to drag a rake of stock out of the depot to split the station in half so they can't see each other.

The byelaws state it's illegal to cause a racket on the train. If it was a group of young black lads playing music and drinking there would be howls for my intervention. Yet football fans are just having a nice time?

There were 3 separate trains having public order issues related to football fans on Saturday - that isn't a small number of miscreants. They were throwing bottles, robbing the train's catering vehicles and threatening the train crew and other passengers.

I don't really care if it's 5 people or 300 or 10000 causing these problems. It is a fact that they are occurring and ordinary people shouldn't have to feel intimidated while travelling on a train.

Be lairy in the stadium, in a football friendly pub, whatever - just piss off with causing problems on our trains where people who don't have a choice about being involved are present.

The railway and police have a responsibility to maintain good order and every Saturday (regardless of football or not to be fair) they duck it and fail entirely.

 

[DarloRich]

@LowLevel could you let me have a list of people that are allowed to travel by train? Am I OK if i leave my scarf at home?

 

[Bromley boy]

Because, sir, as I've mentioned over the last few years I've had to deal with the bottles being thrown over the tracks by rival fans, the other intimidated passengers telling me to sort them out,

Tell them it’s not your job and get into the nearest cab.

Works for me.

 

[LowLevel]

@LowLevel could you let me have a list of people that are allowed to travel by train? Am I OK if i leave my scarf at home?

Certainly.

Those who respect their fellow passengers and the railway's staff and remember what they may see as harmless fun isn't always seen that way by the others around them. Particularly when they're travelling in large groups.

Being locked in a metal tube with these people can be downright frightening whether they intend it or not and there would perhaps be a lessening of the issue if this was understood.

In reality - I get on with running my trains. I muck in with drunks and fare evaders and football fans and all of the other challenges of the job and I do it well. I rarely get into serious trouble and when I do I come out on top and it requires a certain attitude and approach. Many football fans are great. They share their beer with those around them and generally there's a good atmosphere. However when the drinks have been around a bit even the best often start to slip into foul mouthed/offensive chants you might get away with in the ground and that shouldn't be ignored. The recent programme on hooliganism on trains highlighted for me an obvious trend - they genuinely don't think about what they're saying and how it comes across to those not involved.

What you see from me in my above post is a fair amount of frustration from some bloody awful weeks we've had of late and they aren't rare, isolated occurences.

Often when things are tipping to the unreasonable the response from the police is to just get on with it as they can't deal with them on the day. That's not right or fair.

 

[LowLevel]

Tell them it’s not your job and get into the nearest cab.

Works for me.

Bit hard when your regular traction is 15x Sprinters where you have to be in the saloon to close the doors and when parking up a train and demanding police assistance is frowned upon by all concerned...

 

[DarloRich]

Certainly.

Those who respect their fellow passengers and the railway's staff and remember what they may see as harmless fun isn't always seen that way by the others around them. Particularly when they're travelling in large groups.

Being locked in a metal tube with these people can be downright frightening whether they intend it or not and there would perhaps be a lessening of the issue if this was understood.

In reality - I get on with running my trains. I muck in with drunks and fare evaders and football fans and all of the other challenges of the job and I do it well. I rarely get into serious trouble and when I do I come out on top and it requires a certain attitude and approach. Many football fans are great. They share their beer with those around them and generally there's a good atmosphere. However when the drinks have been around a bit even the best often start to slip into foul mouthed/offensive chants you might get away with in the ground and that shouldn't be ignored. The recent programme on hooliganism on trains highlighted for me an obvious trend - they genuinely don't think about what they're saying and how it comes across to those not involved.

What you see from me in my above post is a fair amount of frustration from some bloody awful weeks we've had of late and they aren't rare, isolated occurences.

Often when things are tipping to the unreasonable the response from the police is to just get on with it as they can't deal with them on the day. That's not right or fair.

that fair -I want the moronic scum bags dealt with as much as you. They want stringing up by their goolies. I simply want to make a point that i take umbrage with many here who want to classify me as evil, villainous, hideous scum simply because i dare to use the train to get to the match.

BTW -Things like chanting and signing are nothing. People here just have no idea how to grade what they are faced with.

 

[transmanche]

If both matches really needed to be played on the same day, the kick off times could have been staggered and the situation avoided.

It's usual for all matches on the final day of the season to be played at the same time. (Saturday 5 May was the final day of the League Two season.) It's meant to minimise the 'gamesmanship' caused by teams knowing if other results are going their way.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's correct. Luton fans returning from Nottingham and West Ham fans returning from Leicester found themselves on the same train.
I didn't know this when I wrote my original post. The brawling spilt out onto the platform at Market Harborough, some reports said onto the track too, so all lines were stopped hence the knock on effect to Northbound services.

Like I said, staggered kick off times would certainly have prevented the trouble.

Until the fans of the early kick off go on a bar crawl in the appropriate town and end up on the train back four hours later... Practically every away day to hardcore fans is made into as long a day out as possible, staggering kick off times does nothing except shift pub sessions about in this context.

 

[Adsy125]

that fair -I want the moronic scum bags dealt with as much as you. They want stringing up by their goolies. I simply want to make a point that i take umbrage with many here who want to classify me as evil, villainous, hideous scum simply because i dare to use the train to get to the match.

BTW -Things like chanting and signing are nothing. People here just have no idea how to grade what they are faced with.

I would agree in general that football fans are probably nice people etc, etc

But... Chanting and singing are disruptive and inconsiderate of other people, and as said earlier do scare people, whether you like it or not. I don't mind people chating or even having slightly noisy conversations but I think football fans singing are as annoying as anyone else making a racket on a train. It's just the football fans seem to do it more often.

EDIT: And mentioned above loud noises are against the railway byelaws.

 

[DarloRich]

I would agree in general that football fans are probably nice people etc, etc

so I am only "probably" a nice person ? cheers.

But... Chanting and singing are disruptive and inconsiderate of other people, and as said earlier do scare people, whether you like it or not. I don't mind people chating or even having slightly noisy conversations but I think football fans singing are as annoying as anyone else making a racket on a train. It's just the football fans seem to do it more often.

it is good you don't mind people chatting. That's lucky. Football fans seems to cause a racket more than anyone else? On one game a week? Really? The trains you go on must be like libraries I honestly don't understand how people are intimated by chanting and signing. What is intimating about it?

EDIT: And mentioned above loud noises are against the railway byelaws.

ah the forum love of byelaws. Meanwhile in the real world.................

 

[Bromley boy]

In reality - I get on with running my trains. I muck in with drunks and fare evaders and football fans and all of the other challenges of the job and I do it well.

Bit hard when your regular traction is 15x Sprinters where you have to be in the saloon to close the doors and when parking up a train and demanding police assistance is frowned upon by all concerned...

Fair point. I admire you for doing what you do. I simply wouldn’t have the patience, nor the temperament, for it. I value my ability to slam the cab door and enjoy some solitude.

I worked the last train out of a London terminal to my depot last week. I helped the platform staff lock out the train as a favour. 4 of the 8 coaches had pools of vomit in them.

People really are animals. No thought for the fact some poor bugger had to clean that up.

 

[Adsy125]

so I am only "probably" a nice person ? cheers.

Apologies, I phrased that badly.

But I think the point stands that most football fans are undisruptive but there is a very vocal minority who are, rather more roudy and disruptive.

 

[DarloRich]

Apologies, I phrased that badly.

But I think the point stands that most football fans are undisruptive but there is a very vocal minority who are, rather more roudy and disruptive.

i knew what you meant. I was teasing

 

[Adsy125]

i knew what you meant. I was teasing

Sorry, obviously went straight over my head!

 

[Bromley boy]

i knew what you meant. I was teasing

Then again, as a northerner, you are more likely to be violent.

 

[Wombat]

I honestly don't understand how people are intimated by chanting and signing. What is intimating about it?

I'm not a football fan so I can't comment from that side of the fence. But from the other side, there are a couple of things that come to mind:

1) I assume that most of the football-related trouble on the trains doesn't start before boarding, so I would be thinking "It all seems fairly cheerful now, but is it going to stay that way?" Surely you can put yourself in the shoes of a solo traveller minding their own business and reading the paper when they suddenly find themselves surrounded by chanting football fans, many of whom have spent the afternoon drinking. You personally may be perfectly happy with that situation but it doesn't take much empathy to imagine that it may not be a great experience for others.

2) I think that most people would take an adverse view of a random group of lads spontaneously bursting into song for the duration of a non-football journey. I mean, I don't expect monastic silence on a train but there's a happy medium between "library" and "pissed-up chanting". Why do we expect the usual standards of behaviour to change because there's a football match on? No doubt the individual supporters would be as considerate and understanding as everyone else under normal circumstances, so I don't really understand why the existence of a football match becomes a justification to start singing in the aisles. I'm guessing that BTP think that the cost and effort involved in enforcing "normal" behaviour on these trains isn't worth the hassle, and they're probably right, but that doesn't axiomatically mean that overly boisterous behaviour is reasonable.

 

[LordCreed]

I honestly don't understand how people are intimated by chanting and signing. What is intimating about it?

Loud (and often drunken) singing and chanting isn't nice for those around, regardless of who's singing it (I couldn't care less if it was football fans, random drunk people, rugby fans etc). Think of the rest of the passengers who just want to travel in peace. And I'm not talking about silence, but certainly not people screaming at the top of their voices.

Last year I boarded a Chiltern service where we were joined by a large number of football fans chanting and singing. It was enough to make me get off the train early and wait for the following service, because being given a headache from the racket isn't enjoyable.

Why is it acceptable for singing / chanting, but not for loud headphones or watching a film on speaker etc? It's all about being considerate to those around you, regardless of if you're a football fan or not.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A good read , by an ex pat Englishman is Tim Parks's tale of supporting his local team "Verona" .....(A Season with Verona) - I suspect these guys would get on well with the likes of Cardiff FC in the 1970's ....


There was a major incident on the MML pre Bedpan days when some ex Luton game (not neccesarily Luton themselves) , burned out a complete 115 DMU set enroute back to SPX , along with a horrendous brawl at the terminus........really scary.

 

[njamescouk]

racist, abusive, foul mouthed er "singing" seems to be the norm in my part of the world. I quickly learnt that careful reading of local teams fixtures mitigates the problem.