Do we underuse our country branch lines for tourism?

[InOban]

US entry requirements don't put anyone off, so there's no reason to assume that doing the same to access continental Europe would be any different. In addition ETIAS is a once every 3 yrs thing, not an every visit scheme and it's not a formal visa either, so it's even less likely to have an effect than the already high level of unlikeliness of it putting anyone off. It's just another Remain scare story.

It's merely symbolic of all the other EU-wide freedoms which we will lose if/when the brexemaniacs get their way. The loss of the EHIC health card will be much more serious, since there are far more UK citizens making use of it in the 27 than there are from the 27 in the UK.

 

[route:oxford]

And is sod all use when Homeland Security refuse it for some ludicrous reason. 2 years ago I was refused because I am disabled for the purposes of English law, despite having received one in 2012 (when I was equally disabled).

Of course, the Home Office's recent deft handling of immigration matters could not cause any sensible person to worry about aomething similar happening with visitors to this country, or the EU taking a similar stance in retaliation.

It can't be a "ludicrous reason", my colleague is disabled, but he travels to the US several times a year.

Did you tick the box that that your disability may cause or has caused a threat or danger to others?

 

[yorksrob]

How many people had cars back then? That's the reality now, and most branch lines are duplicated by the road network

If it's a steam service, then people will pay for the ride and general experience, but less so for a DMU...

The same old motor-centric argument.

A parallel road makes little difference to those of us who don't drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can't be a "ludicrous reason", my colleague is disabled, but he travels to the US several times a year.

Did you tick the box that that your disability may cause or has caused a threat or danger to others?

I suspect he maybe did, it's incredibly badly worded. From my Googling, it appears they will let you reapply correcting that if you contact them and explain what the disability actually is.

 

[Mikey C]

The same old motor-centric argument.

A parallel road makes little difference to those of us who don't drive.

Most people can drive. Or know someone who drives. Or can access buses or taxis or Ubers etc

That is the reality facing rural lines

 

[skifans]

Or maybe even if most people currently drive, we should still encourage them not to.

 

[yorksrob]

Most people can drive. Or know someone who drives. Or can access buses or taxis or Ubers etc

That is the reality facing rural lines

Knowing someone who drives, doesn't equal mobility. Unsurprisingly, people who own cars often have their own things to do, other than chauffeuring non-drivers around.

Even within a car owning family, there may still be a need for public transport. So, one breadwinner may drive to work. What about the other breadwinner ? What about the adolescent son going to college or visiting friends?

And as for taxis, have you tried booking one in a rural area ? 30 quid it cost me to get from one not particularly remote village to the nearby intercity railhead. And my friends who lived there told me that if they wanted to go out on a Friday night, they usually had to book a taxi three days in advance ! And you say that this is an equivalent to public transport ?

The 'reality' you speak of seems to bear no resemblance to life how it is actually lived, as far as I can see.

 

[underbank]

Most people can drive. Or know someone who drives. Or can access buses or taxis or Ubers etc

I take it you live in a city. Regular buses, easy taxis and Uber are but a pipe dream outside the cities and major towns.

The thread is about tourism, so it's pretty irrelevant whether you know someone who drives, as they're hardly likely to be around when you're in the middle of a holiday or a day trip are they? Or do you expect them to act as your chauffeur on your holiday? Getting the odd lift is fine for shopping, GP appointment, life to work, but hardly for a holiday!

As for Uber, again, only in the cities and big towns.

There is massive potential to make far better use of poorly used rural/branch lines.

 

[edwin_m]

The provision of an alternative for essential users who aren't able to travel by car is a significant role of the rail network, but isn't really relevant to a discussion about its use for tourism.

 

[BRX]

The provision of an alternative for essential users who aren't able to travel by car is a significant role of the rail network, but isn't really relevant to a discussion about its use for tourism.

It's entirely relevant to its use for tourism. Unless we take the attitude that all we should try and provide for non drivers is 'essential' transport.

 

[yorksrob]

The provision of an alternative for essential users who aren't able to travel by car is a significant role of the rail network, but isn't really relevant to a discussion about its use for tourism.

Essential users who aren't able to travel by car, have been known to go on holiday occasionally.

 

[BRX]

Also we shouldn't really be talking about buses as a separate thing...what rural areas require is a properly integrated system that involves trains and buses. A rural rail line is made hugely more useful if it connects with bus services along the way.

 

[B&I]

It can't be a "ludicrous reason", my colleague is disabled, but he travels to the US several times a year.

Did you tick the box that that your disability may cause or has caused a threat or danger to others?

No I didn't. When I traipsed down to Grovesnor Square for my interview (400 mile return journey, overnight stay), the State Department official who interviewed me said it was a blanket requirement that Homeland Security had decided at that particular point to impose. Are you sure your friend doesn't have a 10 year visa, which is what I was required to get ?

 

[B&I]

There is nothing in the guidance on the website itself suggesting that you should only mention a disability if it threatens others (and it never occurred to me that disabled people could be considered a threat to others, at least until the current British government was elected). I ticked that I was disabled because I am. Immigration officials, particularly US ones, tend to be quite literally-minded people.

Even more bizarrely, I was detained at JFK for no apparent reason - not even questionned. I was the only white person in the holding room. It is possible that this is not an efficient or rational system I was dealing with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I love the way this forum is full of people with psychic powers, who know better than other forummers what actually happened to them. Of course I didn't tick that, because my disability doesn't pose any threat to any other person.

So how did they even find out you were disabled? No other question mentions it.

 

[underbank]

Considering the importance of tourism to the UK economy and the level of subsidies paid to the railway network (presumably most rural lines are heavily subsidised), surely it's common sense to make better use of the rural lines. The heritage lines have showed the massive popularity (even for diesel operated ones). If a better service was provided that increased passenger numbers, it's surely a win-win for UK PLC - less subsidy needed for the rural lines as they're carrying more passengers, PLUS improved economic benefits, more tourist related jobs, more people holidaying in the UK, etc. What's not to love? Trouble is it needs a "joined up" approach, i.e. railway bosses working together with local authorities and local business groups etc. - unfortunately a lot of local authorities can't see beyond money raising, like car park charges, even worse when more than one LA is involved, i.e. different town councils or a line crossing a county border. It would need heads knocking together from higher authorities to make all interested parties work together.

 

[Mikey C]

I take it you live in a city. Regular buses, easy taxis and Uber are but a pipe dream outside the cities and major towns.

The thread is about tourism, so it's pretty irrelevant whether you know someone who drives, as they're hardly likely to be around when you're in the middle of a holiday or a day trip are they? Or do you expect them to act as your chauffeur on your holiday? Getting the odd lift is fine for shopping, GP appointment, life to work, but hardly for a holiday!

As for Uber, again, only in the cities and big towns.

There is massive potential to make far better use of poorly used rural/branch lines.

Coach tours then.

The Southwest of England, for example, is full of tour buses doing shorter and longer excursions. There are lots of options for people who can't or don't want to drive, whether longer holidays like Shearings, or day trips (in this case from Plymouth)

https://www.shearings.com/our-destinations/popular-destinations/holidays-to-cornwall
http://www.citycoach.co.uk/Tours/Day-Trips/Overview

I'm not saying that these cater for every need, but it all "nibbles" away at the use of rural lines for tourism, unless they're actually a major attraction in themselves.

 

[HSTEd]

Also we shouldn't really be talking about buses as a separate thing...what rural areas require is a properly integrated system that involves trains and buses. A rural rail line is made hugely more useful if it connects with bus services along the way.

Rural bus services?
What an interesting idea.

 

[BRX]

Coach tours then.

The Southwest of England, for example, is full of tour buses doing shorter and longer excursions. There are lots of options for people who can't or don't want to drive, whether longer holidays like Shearings, or day trips (in this case from Plymouth)

https://www.shearings.com/our-destinations/popular-destinations/holidays-to-cornwall
http://www.citycoach.co.uk/Tours/Day-Trips/Overview

I'm not saying that these cater for every need, but it all "nibbles" away at the use of rural lines for tourism, unless they're actually a major attraction in themselves.

Not sure what your point is.

Is it that we shouldn't bother promoting rural railways for tourism, because even if things were improved, they couldn't compete with the various alternatives?

 

[underbank]

Coach tours then.

Which just add to road congestion and pollution and parking problems.

Also in rural areas, the roads generally aren't good, i.e. few (if any) motorways, so journey times are longer. Trains generally also take a more direct route, i.e. bridges across estuaries/valleys instead of a much longer road around them, tunnels through hills/mountains or hugging hillsides or valley floors, instead of roads over/around them.

Take two small tourist-y towns, Arnside and Grange on the South Cumbria Coast. By road, it's 14 miles and takes 26 minutes. By train across the Kent Estuary Viaduct it's just 6 minutes by train but peak time Sunday there's only 1 train every 2 hours and first train of the day is 11.11.

When there is the infrastructure to connect tourist areas so much better than the roads, then surely the answer has to be to beef up the railway offerings. Lack of decent transport links (whether road or railway) is holding back lots of tourist areas resulting in the more easily accessible being congested and overcrowded and the less accessible stagnating.

 

[Requeststop]

I just don't understand how people don't use their imagination or nous. There are many things to do to get about beyond a rail head around the country. Public Transport is one the other is local tours. I can give you an example of a tour from St. Ives (my backyard I'll admit) which are either by coach or mini-bus.
From St. Ives towards Lands End along the B3306. Along to Zennor, the church, the pub, (Tinners Arms. Great pub food. Newlyn Crab a must) a walk down to the cliffs. Then, on past miserable Morvah, Pendeen and the Geevor Tin Mine, with the Man Engine (if he's not on tour). On to Bottalack to see The Crowns, Cape Cornwall, Get the photo taken at Lands End and then travel back via the Minack Theatre, pop around to the Telegraph Museum at Portcurno and then back to St Ives via St Buryan, Mousehole, and Penzance, and the B3311, via Nancledra and you have a good days tour of Penwith. Lovely on a sunny day, even better when it's blowing a force 7 straight off the Atlantic.

Other trips to St Michaels Mount, The Lizard, I know of day trips to Tintagel, Eden, and even to (Spits on the ground) North Devon.

OK you've got to fork out a few quid for the tour, but you're on holiday! Someone else is doing the driving for you. You are investing in the local economy, seeing places you might see only once in your life and seeing the history. You're doing a Portillo but you got to your base by train and making your way around the area using public or private transport. Shock horror, you could even hire a car locally and do your own tours.

I now live out of the UK. Recently, Easter week, I flew to Perth, had two nights there, used a local rail rover ticket to see the area, then took the Indian Pacific to Adelaide and Sydney, saw a lot of nothing, and a few interesting places on route. From Sydney I went up to Brisbane and had four days roving around the Gold Coast, and West of Brisbane by rail. Had a fantastic time. Did I drive myself. Hell No.

I try to get back to the UK annually and I always go home to West Cornwall, and get around using a Rover ticket. I also visit other places when I'm back in the UK. Three years so so back I covered the West Highland line to Mallaig. I took the ferry to Skye one day, did a coach tour, the next day I took the ferry to Canna,and had a lovely time, nice sunny and quiet, even in Mid October.

I'm sure that with a bit of imagination people can get about and see interesting things, even out of Skegness when it's closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rural bus services?
What an interesting idea.

They do exist in some places, particularly touristy ones.

An obvious role for the Conwy Valley would be, if the timetable can be got to 2 hourly clockface somehow, for a proper bus station (not a manky bus stop round the back) to be built at Betws and a proper integrated service to operate around Snowdonia based out of there. Because two-hourly is a bit infrequent, the other hour could have a decent coach operating down from the Junction. (It's near impossible to do it so long as the Valley operates a hotch-potch timetable, sadly).

Despite tourist demand likely being not *too* dissimilar in terms of numbers (even if the shape of the network would be quite different) Snowdonia has a laughably poor and badly-integrated service when you compare it to the really quite good (though not perfect) job Stagey do in the Lakes.

Walk out of Windermere station and right there you'll find a newish double decker bus, quite possibly open top, connecting the train to Bowness as well as other services calling - you can't miss it, you can't even get to Booths without walking past it, and it looks good.

Walk out of Betws and you have to go round the back to a hidden stop for a dilapidated old wreck on a hotch potch, infrequent timetable (though now Arriva have taken the services back from the decidedly disreputable Express Motors there has probably been at least some improvement).

It really should be possible to do *much* better - and bring in money by doing so!

 

[HSTEd]

Take two small tourist-y towns, Arnside and Grange on the South Cumbria Coast. By road, it's 14 miles and takes 26 minutes. By train across the Kent Estuary Viaduct it's just 6 minutes by train but peak time Sunday there's only 1 train every 2 hours and first train of the day is 11.11.

When there is the infrastructure to connect tourist areas so much better than the roads, then surely the answer has to be to beef up the railway offerings. Lack of decent transport links (whether road or railway) is holding back lots of tourist areas resulting in the more easily accessible being congested and overcrowded and the less accessible stagnating.

A lot of problems are caused by obsolete, manpower intensive signalling systems that require multiple signal boxes to be manned before a route can open - which drives up the cost of operations.
Perhaps when ERTMS arrives we can set small block sections, without ridiculous costs, and employ diesel tram trains on branch lines such as this.

But I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of problems are caused by obsolete, manpower intensive signalling systems that require multiple signal boxes to be manned before a route can open - which drives up the cost of operations.
Perhaps when ERTMS arrives we can set small block sections, without ridiculous costs, and employ diesel tram trains on branch lines such as this.

I wouldn't really class the Furness line as a branch line to be honest. But I do think there would be some sense in looking at how we operate *actual* branch lines, and perhaps looking at some kind of light-rail type operation involving driving on sight, very basic signalling, open crossings (with the "train" slowing to be able to stop in the distance it can see to be clear before crossing them), track brakes, sprung points, a modern, automated version of RETB for single line protection etc (not ERTMS which is utter overkill). Reduce the costs in that way and a more usable service could well be viable. Maybe even go low-floor, allowing new stations to be built much more cheaply and level access from day one.

If, for instance, you'd only need a driver and something resembling a conductor or guard to put an all year round Sunday service on the Conwy Valley, that kind of thing is much more likely to be actually possible (and would boost tourist revenue).

St Albans would possibly be a good place to try it. Or the Conwy Valley (operating under regular signalling north of the Junction, as keeping the through service to Llandudno is highly desirable; it could have a dedicated low floor platform at Llandudno and a dual height one at Deganwy). Or the Marston Vale, if the decision to build a new route from MK to Bedford for EWR is made.

The concept is a bit like the AKN lines in northern Germany, or quite a few of the Stadler GTW operating lines in the USA.

 

[johnnychips]

They do exist in some places, particularly touristy ones.

An obvious role for the Conwy Valley would be, if the timetable can be got to 2 hourly clockface somehow, for a proper bus station (not a manky bus stop round the back) to be built at Betws and a proper integrated service to operate around Snowdonia based out of there.

I thought the Snowden Sherpa network was good, though I haven't used it in five years...has it gone off since?

I don't think the interchange at Betws is that bad. I can remember when the buses went along the main road and didn't pull into the station at all.

 

[Mikey C]

Not sure what your point is.

Is it that we shouldn't bother promoting rural railways for tourism, because even if things were improved, they couldn't compete with the various alternatives?

No. I was pointing out that the number of people in rural areas actually willing to use rural railways for tourism is relatively small, due to the alternatives of road based transport (car, bus, coach etc) unless the railway has specific advantages, e.g. it's especially scenic, it goes somewhere that roads don't

 

[yorksrob]

No. I was pointing out that the number of people in rural areas actually willing to use rural railways for tourism is relatively small, due to the alternatives of road based transport (car, bus, coach etc) unless the railway has specific advantages, e.g. it's especially scenic, it goes somewhere that roads don't

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'relatively' small.

Certainly the touristy areas I go to, such as North Norfolk, the Dales, Whitby, Windermere, lots of places in Cornwall - rail seems to move a lot of people in. What this compares to as against overall road transport, I don't know. It might be comparatively less.

But it certainly seems to make an important contribution to those economies, and I suspect that they wouldn't be particularly welcome by road users to the flow of traffic, were they to switch.

 

[Mikey C]

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'relatively' small.

Certainly the touristy areas I go to, such as North Norfolk, the Dales, Whitby, Windermere, lots of places in Cornwall - rail seems to move a lot of people in. What this compares to as against overall road transport, I don't know. It might be comparatively less.

But it certainly seems to make an important contribution to those economies, and I suspect that they wouldn't be particularly welcome by road users to the flow of traffic, were they to switch.

To an extent it depends on where people are going. If someone is just going to Lake Windermere, then the train is ideal. If they want to explore the area, walk up hills etc then a car then becomes more useful.

I took a break in Plymouth last summer, thus the train was ideal, and indeed I took a day trip to Looe from there, as I love the Looe Liskeard line (and wanted to drink!). The Looe Liskeard train was pretty empty it has to be said, when compared to the crowded beaches and full car parks...

 

[yorksrob]

To an extent it depends on where people are going. If someone is just going to Lake Windermere, then the train is ideal. If they want to explore the area, walk up hills etc then a car then becomes more useful.

I took a break in Plymouth last summer, thus the train was ideal, and indeed I took a day trip to Looe from there, as I love the Looe Liskeard line (and wanted to drink!). The Looe Liskeard train was pretty empty it has to be said, when compared to the crowded beaches and full car parks...

You must have beenon the Looe branch at a different time to me as its usually pretty busy when I'm on it.

 

[Bald Rick]

The heritage lines have showed the massive popularity (even for diesel operated ones).

If national rail branch lines charged the same fares as most heritage lines, and got most of their staff to work for free, then they would be much healthier financially.