Do we underuse our country branch lines for tourism?

[B&I]

I would definitely say that more could be done to promote such lines. Some of the well-known scenic lines are well promoted but there are scores of secondary and rural routes which are very pleasant to travel on and which serve places worth visiting but receive either no or little publicity and I think this needs to change, at the end of the day it would mean increased ticket revenue and potentially improved footfall for many businesses which can't be a bad thing.

True. For example, I don't think I have ever seen any material promoting the Hope Valley line, even in the cities at either end of it, or the Buxton line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To get the Kyle of Lochalsh you would have to go via Inverness, so would likely be using the sleeper. I doubt you could do it without using the sleeper without spending the night in Inverness.

True, and the Inverness sleeper is almost as special.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Sunday service on this branch might well be a very good idea - but as a line to attract tourists? Really?

Not so much "tourists" as "Sunday pub bimblers and family days out" etc. Bank Holidays and Sundays are the days to do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed that the 'regular' Swiss stock is not much better than ours (although generally seats line up with windows). But those trains are more about getting between places quickly. The relevant comparison is with the narrow gauge lines I'd say. And one of the things that's so impressive is that despite them being privately run there is great integration with things like local buses. And if you're skiing, you can usually buy your ski pass at station offices, bits of local railway are included in passes, there are inclusive ski-pass/rail fares from the cities etc. Everything's set up to make the train easy to use if you're a visitor, instead of the opposite.

SBB flog all sorts from their TVMs, from mobile phone topups to Western Union transfers. It always surprised me that our modern market-driven railway didn't think of it first before that relatively staid old-fashioned nationalised railway that by and large has the feel of a slightly more efficient and updated 1980s BR.

The other thing we don't seem to do well is selling holidays by rail - some TOCs do promote the odd thing here and there - but why not an ATOC website selling all in one tours i.e. a weekend city or countryside break including a hotel and transfers all paid for together? Make it easy? The airlines do it...

 

[AlterEgo]

With the will, loads more could be done with the lines in the north and west of scotland.

These are some of the most scenic journeys in Europe.

Travelling on rural lines in Switzerland just makes me embarrassed at how hopeless Scotland is in this regard.

I agree.

I think there are a number of missed easy wins with regard to scenic lines in this country.

Far North
West Highland
Settle and Carlisle
Heart of Wales (maybe!)

You could flog a lot of premium tickets in an observation car for tourists on certainly the top three lines there. It's only one vehicle and you could have a trolley service on each train. I'd certainly pay a premium and I think a lot of people from overseas would too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could flog a lot of premium tickets in an observation car for tourists on certainly the top three lines there. It's only one vehicle and you could have a trolley service on each train. I'd certainly pay a premium and I think a lot of people from overseas would too.

That's what I mean - money for old rope. Of course you'd still have to lease the rolling stock, but as there's a DMU shortage now wouldn't be a bad time to build some, releasing 156s and 158s for other stuff. I'm sure Stadler could oblige easily enough, as there are tons of FLIRT-based observation coaches all over Switzerland, and short production runs are their bread and butter.

Something like a 6-section FLIRT with one or two sections being First Class (high windows, leather seats, all tables, fully aligned to windows) would do the job. Fit some kind of kitchen facility (and you might as well add a buffet counter to it) and you could flog meals for well over the odds as well. Done right it could potentially be very profitable in summer, and at other times you've got some nicer rolling stock to attract more regular passengers (to fill the 1st then you could offer cheap upgrades and Advances).

 

[mpthomson]

I agree.

I think there are a number of missed easy wins with regard to scenic lines in this country.

Far North
West Highland
Settle and Carlisle
Heart of Wales (maybe!)

You could flog a lot of premium tickets in an observation car for tourists on certainly the top three lines there. It's only one vehicle and you could have a trolley service on each train. I'd certainly pay a premium and I think a lot of people from overseas would too.

I'd add the Furness and Cumbrian Coast line to that list, once they can sort out the performance issues.

 

[B&I]

Said as someone who voted Remain; Yay, another Brexit scare story! Why on earth is Brexit going to make any difference to the number of people who holiday abroad? There won't be any visa requirements to travel to Spain after Brexit (just as one example), and many people holiday in places that aren't in the EU anyway. It's not even been raised as a possibility by anyone except slightly hysterical people who are predicting the end of civilisation as we know it post March 2019.

To address the original point, I think some lines do and others don't. There certainly doesn't appear to be a strategy regarding it.

Calm yourself. The effects are unlikely to be dramatic, but it is possible that currency fluctuations, and visa requirements (I wouldn't rule anything out with the current bunglers in charge) will encourage some people who might previously have gone to EU countries to holiday in Britain.

 

[BRX]

True, and the Inverness sleeper is almost as special.

And, would provide the opportunity for a round trip visiting the highlands/Skye, arriving on the Fort William sleeper and leaving on the Inverness one or vice versa.

Can make a very nice itinerary, but tourists including UK residents will have no idea that it's even an option unless it's presented to them, and made easy to purchase as an all-in one ticket.

 

[70014IronDuke]

True. For example, I don't think I have ever seen any material promoting the Hope Valley line, even in the cities at either end of it, or the Buxton line.

Both good points. Perhaps part of the problem with the Hope Valley is the split in TOCs operating the line? Why should EMT pay for the promotion if TPE (or Northern?) benefit for freebie?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes. Two years running We have taken friends to walk up the hill from Ashley Guise station to Woburn Abbey & the safari park.
It is a fine 30 min walk & you can visit the grounds free as it is criss crossed with public footpaths which take you within touching distance( through a fence) of the wild animals.

So, you have taken how many friends, once a year for two consecutive years to Ashley Guise? That is exactly how many passenger journeys? Don't get me wrong, I can well believe you have spotted a nice little excursion, but how many others will keep their cars at home and follow you on this trail - even if it got better known? A handfull in the summer months? And from November to March?
Hardly enough to justify a Sunday service for tourism purposes. But there may be more 'regular' demand, I accept that.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not so much "tourists" as "Sunday pub bimblers and family days out" etc. Bank Holidays and Sundays are the days to do this.

Ok, you are building something of a case. I have my doubts as a tourism venture - but of course, if it generated regular passengers for work and shopping - the pub bumblers and Woburn Park Wanderers would add to that.

 

[furnessvale]

When the Settle to Carlisle line was under threat, and the suggestion was made that tourism could save it, the then transport minister Paul Channon said " railways are not in the business of tourism".

 

[bspahh]

And, would provide the opportunity for a round trip visiting the highlands/Skye, arriving on the Fort William sleeper and leaving on the Inverness one or vice versa.

Can make a very nice itinerary, but tourists including UK residents will have no idea that it's even an option unless it's presented to them, and made easy to purchase as an all-in one ticket.

Scotrail have their Scottish Grand Tour ticket: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/combined-tickets-travel-passes/scottish-grand-tour

They don't try to tie this in with the sleeper trains, but it took them long enough to get the link up with Stagecoach for the buses on Skye.

 

[northwichcat]

Both good points. Perhaps part of the problem with the Hope Valley is the split in TOCs operating the line? Why should EMT pay for the promotion if TPE (or Northern?) benefit for freebie?

I don't think that really affects it. EMT provide a peak time only service at a couple of stations, as well as one of the late Liverpool to Nottingham services being all-stops through the Hope Valley. Very few tourists are going to find the EMT services at suitable times for their needs, while very few people are going to use Northern for getting between Manchester and Sheffield so EMT can focus advertising on providing a service from Manchester to Sheffield and Northern can focus advertising on serving scenic villages along the Hope Valley line, ideal for ramblers.

 

[underbank]

My first introduction to the railways was the 1970's "mystery trips" operated by BR. You could, literally, end up anywhere, so often on the lesser used lines. Usually had 2 or 3 options for destinations, i.e. a seaside resort or a city en-route. Maybe my memory is playing tricks, but I seem to remember one trip which was a choice of Bath or Weston Super Mare. Another one I'm certain of was the destination being Gourock with the city option being Glasgow, and Lincoln or Skegness. What I do remember is how popular they were - you had to book quickly as they very quickly sold out, and these were full length 10-12 coachers too!

 

[northwichcat]

My first introduction to the railways was the 1970's "mystery trips" operated by BR. You could, literally, end up anywhere, so often on the lesser used lines. Usually had 2 or 3 options for destinations, i.e. a seaside resort or a city en-route. Maybe my memory is playing tricks, but I seem to remember one trip which was a choice of Bath or Weston Super Mare. Another one I'm certain of was the destination being Gourock with the city option being Glasgow, and Lincoln or Skegness. What I do remember is how popular they were - you had to book quickly as they very quickly sold out, and these were full length 10-12 coachers too!

Even post-privatisation you get some 1tpd services, usually 2 services joined up for operational convenience and the fact that it's a direct train attracts a lot of passengers. We had this with the Mid-Cheshire line a while back when the first off-peak northbound service continued to Blackpool.

 

[BRX]

Scotrail have their Scottish Grand Tour ticket: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/combined-tickets-travel-passes/scottish-grand-tour

They don't try to tie this in with the sleeper trains, but it took them long enough to get the link up with Stagecoach for the buses on Skye.

I didn't know about that. Fair play to Scotrail - that's the kind of thing there should be more of.

If the link with the buses is already arranged, then you'd think a sleeper variant of the same thing shouldn't be so hard to organise.

At the moment the Caledonian Sleeper website doesn't even offer you the option to book a through ticket to Mallaig or Kyle.

 

[InOban]

The Skye tour can only be done in the summer, since the bus between Kyle and Armadale only operates between June 5th and October 22. And it wouldn't work clockwise with the sleeper as you wouldn't get to Armadale in time for the bus. Works the other way, with 15 minute connection times at both Inverness and Kyle. No time to appreciate either place.

 

[bspahh]

The Skye tour can only be done in the summer, since the bus between Kyle and Armadale only operates between June 5th and October 22. And it wouldn't work clockwise with the sleeper as you wouldn't get to Armadale in time for the bus. Works the other way, with 15 minute connection times at both Inverness and Kyle. No time to appreciate either place.

The Grand Tour ticket was available last summer, and from May 21st this year. The route planner at https://www.stagecoachbus.com/ has some buses between Armadale and Kyle of Lochalsh on May 22nd.

The train ticket lets you travel on 4 days within an 8 day period, so there is time to stop over. The local businesses want to have people to spend some time and money with them, rather than a whistle stop tour.

 

[Requeststop]

Newquay, Looe, and Gunnislake lines could be better served for tourists. Newquay has a dreadful service all year round. If you look at how the Falmouth and St Ives branch numbers have shot up since the improvements to their services.

 

[yorksrob]

When the Settle to Carlisle line was under threat, and the suggestion was made that tourism could save it, the then transport minister Paul Channon said " railways are not in the business of tourism".

The school of thought that thinks that the railways are there to transport commuters and posh businesses types, and little else.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Yes, I agree we don't do enough to promote our scenic lines, and it's a cultural issue that could have dealt with a long time ago. Back in the 1950s and 1960s a lot of lines were shut which had enormous potential, either for taking tourists to destinations or simply for travelling on the lines themselves - be it Ballachulish, Princetown, the Yorkshire Coast or the various branches in the Lake District. It's a shame those running the show back then couldn't consider the possibility that people might want to take a journey on a train for the sake of taking a journey. They could have initiated the cultural shift

As it is, most TOCs don't seem to be too interested - it's become the sort of thing they can essentially outsource to the CRPs. ScotRail are the exception - they have a great section on their website promoting their scenic lines. But then I don't think it's because TOCs don't want to promote lines in that way - it's just not a priority when time and resources are stretched

 

[hexagon789]

True. For example, I don't think I have ever seen any material promoting the Hope Valley line, even in the cities at either end of it, or the Buxton line.

Certainly, there are many scenic lines in Scotland other than the West Highland/West Highland extension or the Far North/Kyle of Lochalsh but these aren't well publicised.

The Stranraer wasn't for a while either and then a leaflet was produced to publicise what could be seen on the route but I haven't seen these for a few years now.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, I agree we don't do enough to promote our scenic lines, and it's a cultural issue that could have dealt with a long time ago. Back in the 1950s and 1960s a lot of lines were shut which had enormous potential, either for taking tourists to destinations or simply for travelling on the lines themselves - be it Ballachulish, Princetown, the Yorkshire Coast or the various branches in the Lake District. It's a shame those running the show back then couldn't consider the possibility that people might want to take a journey on a train for the sake of taking a journey. They could have initiated the cultural shift

As it is, most TOCs don't seem to be too interested - it's become the sort of thing they can essentially outsource to the CRPs. ScotRail are the exception - they have a great section on their website promoting their scenic lines. But then I don't think it's because TOCs don't want to promote lines in that way - it's just not a priority when time and resources are stretched

I suspect its the kind of thing Area Managers'* Offices used to do. TBH, Northern clearly promotes some lines for their tourism value (eg S&C) and some tourist destinations, eg York.

But even lines like, eg Bedford-Bletchley could boost their tourist travel - both intrinsic to the line and in terms of local attractions, pubs, etc - if they have a 'friends' group. The S&C lot certainly are v active promoting awareness of their line.

* Area managers - middle managers who used to manage, er, areas - underneath divisional managers - but probably became extinct soon after the last Ice Age, ie around 1980.

 

[DanTrain]

True. For example, I don't think I have ever seen any material promoting the Hope Valley line, even in the cities at either end of it, or the Buxton line.

Frankly, without a serious boost in capacity, the last thing the Hope Valley needs is promotion, it's already packed on summer weekends (and pretty busy on grey November days too). I can't speak for the Buxton or Matlock lines however, although without a bus connection they're much less useful for getting into the 'proper' Peaks.

I agree.

I think there are a number of missed easy wins with regard to scenic lines in this country.

Far North
West Highland
Settle and Carlisle
Heart of Wales (maybe!)

You could flog a lot of premium tickets in an observation car for tourists on certainly the top three lines there. It's only one vehicle and you could have a trolley service on each train. I'd certainly pay a premium and I think a lot of people from overseas would too.

Agreed. I'd add (as suggested) the Kyle Line and Cumbrian Coast for that (both could share rolling stock at Carlisle/Inverness).

Another thing that is poorly utilised are the (often coastal) branchlines to tourist destinations. For example, the Whitbly, Blannau Ffestinniog, Bittern/Wherry and Cornish Branch lines are all somwhat underutilised and under promoted. Having some better rolling stock in the summer, or maybe even just cheap family tickets would help promote these lines and lessen the load on local roads. Obviously, in places this is trying to be done with varying success, often I appreciate infrastructure can slow things down somewhat.

 

[Domh245]

Frankly, without a serious boost in capacity, the last thing the Hope Valley needs is promotion, it's already packed on summer weekends (and pretty busy on grey November days too)

I know that the EMT and TPE expresses are heaving but even the Northern stoppers? I wouldn't have expected them to be overly busy, but then again I think that they are trying to increase the frequency of those stoppers.

 

[cle]

I think Betws y Coed is a great example of somewhere that should be sold better, as the Lakes are. It has that great appeal of scenery, activities in the area and a lot of pubs for the evening. Neither are quite Queenstown NZ, but we should be heading that way. Accommodation is often terrible and dated - people like to drink in old pubs, but modern B&Bs should be boutique, with great facilities, spas etc to compete against those who would usually go abroad.

Solid, seamless, held connections from the key London trains should be the first way to go - in combination with a lot of press and PR.

 

[30907]

Newquay, Looe, and Gunnislake lines could be better served for tourists. Newquay has a dreadful service all year round. If you look at how the Falmouth and St Ives branch numbers have shot up since the improvements to their services.

Falmouth serves local users and St Ives the P and R, so not comparable.
Newquay - could no doubt do with an extra unit, but it's of minimal use to local travellers or holidaymakers (maybe the odd day trip to Plymouth?).
Looe - is operated at near maximum frequency anyway.
Gunnislake - is a lovely journey, but Calstock isn't a sufficient attraction for a day out, and it's a fair way from Devon and Cornwall tourist hotspots.
Sorry to pour cold water....

 

[30907]

Germany typically operates much lower frequencies than the UK but it's mostly "im Takt" with planned connections, so even if your journey strings together a load of RegionalExpress trains you won't necessarily notice this.

In terms of scenery, Germany is a much more realistic comparison to most of the UK,, and the only specialised stock is a handful of SBB panoramic cars made redundant from Gotthard line duties.
I entirely agree that TOCs could do more to publicise rural railways (on a random check of websites, Scotrail, Northern and GA aren't too bad), but reasonable quality stock and minor timetable tweaks would be quick(ish) fixes rather than massive expenditure.