Wires down at Luton (8/11/16)

[QueensCurve]

Some pictures of the Hillary Clinton* signals at Luton today

*all the lights have gone out

25kV Trumps 650V

 

[Richardr]

I guess the Arriva services may have worked better, but if you're moving train loads of people to another line, you must have your own buses and with TL being a 24 hour railway and GN not that far off (first train around 4am) then I'd have expected shuttles running throughout the night and morning.

Plus, my experience last night was that the driver of the Arriva bus from Hatfield to St Albans wouldn't accept train tickets, as the Thameslink site claimed, so it was either pay, or hope a shuttle was operating, with no sign of the latter.



Sent from mTalk

 

[jon0844]

Given Uno drivers often don't like plus bus tickets, I am sure they had drivers who weren't willing to accept train tickets either.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I am advised by "one who knows" that the sole service north of the Thames is 4 tph with no SAC reversers.....

So that is a peak deficit of 10 tph and an off peak shortfall of 4....anyone logically know why that is....?

 

[Verulamius]

Assuming no trains through the core, how many per hour can be turned around in St Pancras low level?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Assuming no trains through the core, how many per hour can be turned around in St Pancras low level?

Certainly 6 tph with ease - possibly up to 8 tph with slick crew working or "stepping back" - albeit with issues over crossing moves at the top of the bank ...

 

[QueensCurve]

The photo I've sen elsewhere looks like a signal tail cable hanging off the signal gantry.

Any link to the picture?

 

[Robertj21a]

Although some operators do have contingency plans in place, Ensign for example.

As I'm sure you are aware, Ensignbus are specialists in providing buses for rail replacement work, they've done it for very many years in addition to all their other bus work. They are extremely good, and few others specialise in quite the same way - but there's only so much any operator can do with sudden demands that couldn't have been foreseen. Some of the train operating companies are also reluctant to pay a reasonable fee for the supply of buses and drivers at short notice, so may attempt to use less suitable operators.

 

[Class377/5]

Any link to the picture?

http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/update-train-delays-after-overhead-wire-damage-1-7671452

Thameslink is a fragile, unreliable, shambles. Performance is absolutely woeful, and that's no exaggeration.

If the infrastructure can't be made to work reliably now, a reliable 24tph is a complete dream. The powers that be need to snap out of the Thameslink Programme Dreamworld, and enter reality.

I'm tired of reading excuses for this unreliable joke of a train service.

Right had some time to actually put together what you'd do with the service and having the link to GN would actually improve the situation. The link would allow BML services for example to run as booked from the Core south. This would give the high peak hour 22tph against the 24tph depending on what you can run on MML. Maybe possible to run the TL1 services fully but may reduce what shttules can be provided on MML.

Mainline
TL1 - Bedford to Brighton
Run as Bedford to St Pancras (high level) service alongside TL2
London Bridge to Brighton (currently 2tph to anyway so room for it)

TL2 - Bedford to Gatwick
Run as Bedford to St Pancras (high level) service alongside TL1

TL3 - Bedford to East Grinstead - Peak Only
Run from London bridge low level like today

TL4 - Bedford to Littlehampton - Peak Only
Run from London bridge low level like today

TL5 - Peterborough to Horsham
Can run as normal

TL6 - Cambridge to Brighton
Can run as normal

TL7 - Cambridge to Maidstone East
Can run as normal

Metro
TL8 - Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks - Peak only
Blackfriars to Sevenoaks - Off Peak
Can ran as normal

TL9 - Luton to Orpington - Peak only
Kentish Town to Orpington - Off peak
Run as Kentish Town to Orpington all day

TL10 - Luton to Rainham
Run as West Hampstead to Rainham

TL11 - St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon
Can run as normal

TL12 - St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
Can run as normal

NR is planning a block overnight to attempt a final fix.

 

[Deepgreen]

CAPE/CAPEd is railway (in fact ex-railway telegraph transmission) shorthand for "Cancelled At Point of Entry", ie. service cancelled in its entirety, from the very start of its booked journey on the network.

Indeed - I was being light-hearted!

 

[SAPhil]

To: Class377/5

I'm struggling to understand your example above. How could TL11 and TL12 run then when they can't run them at the moment? What am I missing?

 

[daikilo]

CAPE/CAPEd is railway (in fact ex-railway telegraph transmission) shorthand for "Cancelled At Point of Entry", ie. service cancelled in its entirety, from the very start of its booked journey on the network.

Really? I agree with the C but I thought the rest was "and proceed empty/to xxx (destination)". I'm pretty sure to have been involved with trains we CAPEd en-route.

 

[Class377/5]

To: Class377/5

I'm struggling to understand your example above. How could TL11 and TL12 run then when they can't run them at the moment? What am I missing?

There are difference with the way services work compared to today with them actually being Luton - Sutton - St Albans - Sutton - Luton trips meaning they don't work well with today's service plan as well as a direct St Albans terminator every time. Also the extra drivers aren't there yet allowing better sectioning of drivers compared to today.

 

[Deepgreen]

I may have missed it, but has anyone identified the probable origin of the dangling cable? In other words, was it something that was being worked on at the time, or had it just been left loose? If the latter, something of a serious safety and engineering breach I would have thought.

 

[daikilo]

I may have missed it, but has anyone identified the probable origin of the dangling cable? In other words, was it something that was being worked on at the time, or had it just been left loose? If the latter, something of a serious safety and engineering breach I would have thought.

Fair chance that S&T have, especially as the other end was presumably still attached. May not have been a safety breach per se, but probably should not have happened (assuming malicious intervention not the cause).

 

[otomous]

Thameslink is a fragile, unreliable, shambles. Performance is absolutely woeful, and that's no exaggeration.

If the infrastructure can't be made to work reliably now, a reliable 24tph is a complete dream. The powers that be need to snap out of the Thameslink Programme Dreamworld, and enter reality.

I'm tired of reading excuses for this unreliable joke of a train service.

It's hardly fair comment. The routes have never been tested on infrastructure that was designed for them. They've been forced to either cross the main line to get to and from London Bridge high level; then conflict with Charing Cross and Cannon Street services; then the single track section at the base of the spur towards Blackfriars. To say nothing of Windmill Junction.

At the moment they are forced to crawl along the slowest way from East Croydon to Blackfriars which is one long bottleneck.

Don't forget that with the combined efforts of the resignalling, the automatic operation, the separation of the tracks from the core all the way to Windmill Junction, and the capacity creating trains, the post 2018 picture is entirely different.

 

[philjo]

I see journeycheck is listing a longer list of buses accepting tickets.
Though it isn't stricly accurate - Metroline withdrew route 714 (luton airport-St albans-New Barnet) back in the Summer. It has now been replaced by an extension of route 84 once per hour which runs as usual via Potters Bar.

Alternative Routes
-
Replacement buses are operating as below to link to Great Northern routes until 23:00.
between Bedford and St Neots
between Luton and Hitchin
between St Albans and Hatfield
-
The following local bus services are accepting Thameslink ticket holders:
ARRIVA bus route 300, 301 and 724 between St Albans and Hatfield where Great Northern services run to London Kings Cross.
METROLINE buses 84, 84A between St Albans and Potters Bar where Great Northern services run to London Kings Cross.
METROLINE bus 714 between St Albans/Luton and New Barnet where Great Northern services run to London Kings Cross.
UNO buses route 602 St Albans/Radlett to Hatfield, 653 St Albans to Hatfield where Great Northern services run to London Kings Cross.
UNO bus 602 between St Albans/Radlett and Watford High Street where London Overground services run to London Euston.
UNO bus 615 between Elstree & Borehamwood and Stanmore where the Jubilee line runs.
UNO bus 655 between St Albans, Radlett and Esltree & Borehamwood.
Greenline route 757 services between Victoria and Luton.

Presumably when there is similar disruption after GN start running through there would be scope to divert some MML services to terminate at FInsbury Park (& reverse via Hornsey flyover or Bowes Park) to keep the core section running & avoid blocking the St Pancras LL platforms with terminating trains.


Kings Cross underground station was not good trying to get to Victoria at 08:30 this morning - very long queues to enter both the deep level and M&C/Circle/Met line ticket barriers. I gave up & caught a bus to Aldwych & used District line from Temple

 

[westcoaster]

Reported a full block over the affected area tonight 2300-0400, trains to terminate at St Albans for a replacement coach to Bedford.

 

[Saint66]

NR expect a near normal service again for EMT tomorrow but expecting major issues still for Thameslink.

 

[tsr]

Really? I agree with the C but I thought the rest was "and proceed empty/to xxx (destination)". I'm pretty sure to have been involved with trains we CAPEd en-route.

Nope. At least not on my patch. (And I've dealt with plenty of CAPEs too...)

The correct words for starting after origin, or terminating short of destination, are CALVIN and PINE respectively. In modern use, CALVIN is very rare, and PINE rare. Using these methods for service recovery are, of course, still common.

CAPE denotes that the service will be cancelled throughout and the stock will not be worked as such on the network. Any ECS might use the same stock and even broadly the same timings, but the service will not work in its original guise.

 

[Sunset route]

Don't forget that with the combined efforts of the resignalling, the automatic operation, the separation of the tracks from the core all the way to Windmill Junction, and the capacity creating trains, the post 2018 picture is entirely different.

They are not separate until "Bricklayers Arms Junction" just north of New Cross Gate. Up to that point they are sharing the Up&Down London Bridge/Sussex fast lines with Southern south coast and outer metro services.

 

[A0]

Yeah, it feels like EMT have got significantly better access. And those with the least alternatives (aka Bedford to Harpenden users) have essentially one train an hour with no guidance over when in the hour it might leave...

(Altho Rick's numbers are more promising than those on the previous page)

Rick - and the part-day meltdowns every time a train pulls the wires down at City Thamelink...

Hold your horses - EMT's decisions haven't been that great today. Cancelling the Corby's means a drop to hourly services for Wellingborough and Kettering, with busier than normal trains because they were picking up extra passengers at Luton and Bedford - and were only stopping hourly at those as the Corby is usually the other stopper along there. I don't know why they couldn't have stopped the Nottingham fast at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering, running it in the path of the Corby as far as Kettering and then let it pick up its usual path from there - it's leaves STP 15 after the Corby so must only be a few mins behind it by Kettering.

 

[westcoaster]

Hold your horses - EMT's decisions haven't been that great today. Cancelling the Corby's means a drop to hourly services for Wellingborough and Kettering, with busier than normal trains because they were picking up extra passengers at Luton and Bedford - and were only stopping hourly at those as the Corby is usually the other stopper along there. I don't know why they couldn't have stopped the Nottingham fast at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering, running it in the path of the Corby as far as Kettering and then let it pick up its usual path from there - it's leaves STP 15 after the Corby so must only be a few mins behind it by Kettering.

This is my major gripe with EMT during disruption, they never seem to stop other services to pick up the cancelled services stops. I've asked them why on Twitter but got a stock reply of its not possible , the Nottingham fast is right behind the Corby at wellingborough, in fact the Corby's are booked to run slow line from Wellingborough now to let it go by ( normally goes by me by the time I've walked to the car park).

 

[Signal Head]

.. Without looking it up West Hampstead must be around 40 years old so it is to be hoped that the original equipment has been updated at some point...

The 'outside' kit such as point machines will be replaced every so often because they have moving parts so get worn. WH was put in during the Clamp-lock (mechanism type) era, but they have gone out (and in) of favour several times over the years, and newer types of mechanism have been developed, these tend to be put in on junction renewals and remodellings

Signal heads tend to last for years, though over the last few years there have been like-for-like replacements with LED types in many areas, I expect the WH area will have had its share of these.

Lineside cables get damaged, or become life expired, so some of those will have been renewed.

Other than that, the interlocking kit can be kept going almost indefinitely, it's relay-based (apart from the London end which was resignalled for the CTRL works), so you can just keep periodically renewing the relays.

The control panel in WH itself has had some partial renewals, but was showing its age the last time I was in there, and the electronic systems (remote control) are fairly easy to replace with modern equivalents. This is being done elsewhere as a prelude to recontrol onto a ROC, because the new systems are more compatible with the ROC systems.

WH was commissioned in stages between (IIRC) 1978/9 and 1982, so your estimate wasn't too far out.

 

[backontrack]

Wow. And without the Marston Vale and Abbey lines, this would have been even more of a car crash...

 

[Bald Rick]

Wow. And without the Marston Vale and Abbey lines, this would have been even more of a car crash...

Pretty sure the Abbey line was out for some of yesterday, not that anyone noticed. At times like these, you will still get a seat on the abbey line at peak times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 'outside' kit such as point machines will be replaced every so often because they have moving parts so get worn. WH was put in during the Clamp-lock (mechanism type) era, but they have gone out (and in) of favour several times over the years, and newer types of mechanism have been developed, these tend to be put in on junction renewals and remodellings

Signal heads tend to last for years, though over the last few years there have been like-for-like replacements with LED types in many areas, I expect the WH area will have had its share of these.

Lineside cables get damaged, or become life expired, so some of those will have been renewed.

Other than that, the interlocking kit can be kept going almost indefinitely, it's relay-based (apart from the London end which was resignalled for the CTRL works), so you can just keep periodically renewing the relays.

The control panel in WH itself has had some partial renewals, but was showing its age the last time I was in there, and the electronic systems (remote control) are fairly easy to replace with modern equivalents. This is being done elsewhere as a prelude to recontrol onto a ROC, because the new systems are more compatible with the ROC systems.

WH was commissioned in stages between (IIRC) 1978/9 and 1982, so your estimate wasn't too far out.

Luton was commissioned in October 1979, so is 37 years old. Most of the signal heads have been replaced, but not much of the main cabling will have.

 

[AndyPJG]

I may have missed it, but has anyone identified the probable origin of the dangling cable? In other words, was it something that was being worked on at the time, or had it just been left loose? If the latter, something of a serious safety and engineering breach I would have thought.

BBC:- Thameslink rail disruption 'could last to Friday' has a photo of the (presumed) dangly signal cable.

Trains were disrupted after a signalling wire came into contact with overhead electric lines, it said.
Robert McIntosh, from Network Rail, said: "What we do know is one of our signalling cables did come away.
"A signalling system that normally carries 24 volts had a sudden injection of 25,000 volts. It has caused quite extensive damage, which is why it's taking us so long to put this right."

 

[Minstral25]

http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/update-train-delays-after-overhead-wire-damage-1-7671452



Right had some time to actually put together what you'd do with the service and having the link to GN would actually improve the situation. The link would allow BML services for example to run as booked from the Core south. This would give the high peak hour 22tph against the 24tph depending on what you can run on MML. Maybe possible to run the TL1 services fully but may reduce what shttules can be provided on MML.

Mainline
TL1 - Bedford to Brighton
Run as Bedford to St Pancras (high level) service alongside TL2
London Bridge to Brighton (currently 2tph to anyway so room for it)

TL2 - Bedford to Gatwick
Run as Bedford to St Pancras (high level) service alongside TL1

TL3 - Bedford to East Grinstead - Peak Only
Run from London bridge low level like today

TL4 - Bedford to Littlehampton - Peak Only
Run from London bridge low level like today

TL5 - Peterborough to Horsham
Can run as normal

TL6 - Cambridge to Brighton
Can run as normal

TL7 - Cambridge to Maidstone East
Can run as normal

Metro
TL8 - Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks - Peak only
Blackfriars to Sevenoaks - Off Peak
Can ran as normal

TL9 - Luton to Orpington - Peak only
Kentish Town to Orpington - Off peak
Run as Kentish Town to Orpington all day

TL10 - Luton to Rainham
Run as West Hampstead to Rainham

TL11 - St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon
Can run as normal

TL12 - St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
Can run as normal

NR is planning a block overnight to attempt a final fix.

Great but what happens to the other half of TL2 - no TL services to Coulsdon South and Merstham, plus 50% reduction at Redhill?? Not a good solution for us!! Cutting of Three Bridges to Bedford service with ongoing unreliability from Southern has been a nightmare for off peak travel in last two days

 

[Class377/5]

Great but what happens to the other half of TL2 - no TL services to Coulsdon South and Merstham, plus 50% reduction at Redhill?? Not a good solution for us!! Cutting of Three Bridges to Bedford service with ongoing unreliability from Southern has been a nightmare for off peak travel in last two days

Both Coulsdon South and Mersham are peak only so a few additional stops on Southern will balance that. Or simply put some stops on Horsham and/or Brighton service. Or simply run a Finsbury Park to Three Bridges service. Reverse stock in the depot so no major reason you can't.

 

[Minstral25]

Both Coulsdon South and Mersham are peak only so a few additional stops on Southern will balance that. Or simply put some stops on Horsham and/or Brighton service. Or simply run a Finsbury Park to Three Bridges service. Reverse stock in the depot so no major reason you can't.

Fair point - forgot the services swap over in 2018 terms. So what about the fact that Earlswood, Salfords and Horley will have no service at all then! Plus 50% reduction on overcrowded Redhill services (which will still be very overcrowded with 2018 timetable and 12 coach trains)