Wires down at Luton (8/11/16)

[ChiefPlanner]

Those of us old enough - can recall an unfortunate fire in the Kentish Town relay room circa 1992 - which knocked out the interlocking for about 5 days - (this was basically vandalism) - extensive disruption with temporary block working for the duration.....

 

[asylumxl]

Does anyone know why they aren't running through the core or adding more St Albans terminators? As an outsider I would expect the Sutton services to be able to continue through the core and reverse at St Albans (thus adding at least another 2ph). I guess it's a bit trickier if they don't want to rejoin Bedford and Brighton just yet.

I'm going to give an alternative explanation, though it's speculative.

Govia wish to minimise the disruption to services south of the river and are running trains in their relevant paths when possible, with their relevant descriptors, south of Blackfriars.

This obviously has the benefit of having less effect on customers south of the river, but the cynic in me wonders if this arrangement is due to it being economically beneficial for GoVia. lf for example a train runs as a Bedford to Brighton service, with stops north of the river cancelled, could it be that GoVia incur lower penalties? Of course they may well claim the money back from NR but that's another matter entirely.

Last night during the chaos, they certainly kept changing trains headcodes on the fly (3 times on one train in the space of 10 minutes). My immediate thought was that is was due to it being more beneficial to run it as another service closer to booked time.

As I said, speculation.

 

[Abpj17]

I don't understand why sevenoaks services are being diverted to victoria rather up to blackfriars, though.

Are the bays even being used?

The bays were full last night. There is a real capacity issue with getting any trains to Bedford so trains I assume have to 'park' somewhere at or below St Albans.

 

[G0ORC]

Those of us old enough - can recall an unfortunate fire in the Kentish Town relay room circa 1992 - which knocked out the interlocking for about 5 days - (this was basically vandalism) - extensive disruption with temporary block working for the duration.....

Ah yes, I remember it well... I was involved in helping to sort the service out between Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield and that was bad enough...

Oh and for those who think its taking ages to fix, if you've ever seen the effects of very high voltages on signalling equipment will know that its not easy. I once remember seeing the effects of a lightning strike on the relay room at Duffield and a location cabinet at St. Marys, Derby. Basically the location cabinet looked ok until it was opened which revealed a large lump of solidified metal. About 5 miles of cable had been welded together. A bit more extreme than what happened here but it just shows what happens...

There is the rebuild and then an extensive period of testing to make sure everything works as it should. If this was a planned job my guess would be at least 4 days, even with modern testing techniques. My guess is that they'll have some level of signalling back in by tomorrow, which would be one hell of an achievement.

I'm guessing its TBW over the fast lines between Harpenden and Leagrave - is that correct?

Later 1545 9/11 - they appear to have now blocked the UFL and are working over the USL....

 

[Abpj17]

Last night during the chaos, they certainly kept changing trains headcodes on the fly (3 times on one train in the space of 10 minutes). My immediate thought was that is was due to it being more beneficial to run it as another service closer to booked time.

As I said, speculation.

Possibly too cynical - that would display a degree of judgement and forethought that wasn't evident in the chaos. Stuff did keep changing tho - so it's a 'mare to find anything on RTT about what actually ran and when! Mine was originally St A bound, then changed to all stations to Bedford. Then de-trained at St A and told to go to other train that would be heading north before ours. (And that train had swapped drivers)

Drivers last night were saying it was TBW

 

[asylumxl]

Possibly too cynical - that would display a degree of judgement and forethought that wasn't evident in the chaos. Stuff did keep changing tho - so it's a 'mare to find anything on RTT about what actually ran and when! Mine was originally St A bound, then changed to all stations to Bedford. Then de-trained at St A and told to go to other train that would be heading north before ours. (And that train had swapped drivers)

Drivers last night were saying it was TBW

Well, from what I've been told it was a 'mare to keep track of trains on staff systems too (such as CCLDB).

Personally, I'm going to stick with my cynicism.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm guessing its TBW over the fast lines between Harpenden and Leagrave - is that correct?

Believed to be 3 slots fast lines and 2 slots slow lines between the points you note - which is realistically about the maximum that a signaler(s) can safely deal with when there are no indications etc (and no doubt everything will be clipped and scotched up at Luton etc)

 

[Abpj17]

I'm guessing its TBW over the fast lines between Harpenden and Leagrave - is that correct?

Believed to be 3 slots fast lines and 2 slots slow lines between the points you note - which is realistically about the maximum that a signaler(s) can safely deal with when there are no indications etc (and no doubt everything will be clipped and scotched up at Luton etc)

I don't understand the references to slots (passenger only - but you learn a lot on Thameslink ).
- Only one train at a time was permitted (I assume at least in each direction) at any one time between Harpenden and Leagrave
- We went up the slows until St Albans. We parked on the far left (so the fast) crossed platform to the middle, then train switched back to the fast for Harpenden onwards.
- There were some trains coming down the slows intermittently (below St A, no idea above). I can't recall seeing anything going up the fasts before St A, but I'm not sure EMT were scheduled (did EMT crawl to St A, or only from there?)

 

[G0ORC]

I'm guessing its TBW over the fast lines between Harpenden and Leagrave - is that correct?

Believed to be 3 slots fast lines and 2 slots slow lines between the points you note - which is realistically about the maximum that a signaler(s) can safely deal with when there are no indications etc (and no doubt everything will be clipped and scotched up at Luton etc)

All points in the TBW section would have to be clipped and scotched - didn't see anything running over the slow lines but at 1545 today on the live mapping systems the UFL is marked as blocked and 1B51 is running over the USL.

 

[louis97]

All points in the TBW section would have to be clipped and scotched - didn't see anything running over the slow lines but at 1545 today on the live mapping systems the UFL is marked as blocked and 1B51 is running over the USL.

It's been TBW on DFL, UFL and USL since this morning. From 1500 it was swapped from UFL to DSL to allow an extra 2 tph Thameslink to Bedford I believe.

 

[G0ORC]

It's been TBW on DFL, UFL and USL since this morning. From 1500 it was swapped from UFL to DSL to allow an extra 2 tph Thameslink to Bedford I believe.

A sensible move to give more northbound capacity in the evening peak - thank you for this...

 

[Elecman]

Yes, I know, but a) signalling cables do not come into contact with 25kV without 'external interference' and b) even if they do there are lots of protection fuses and other devices designed to stop the damage that has occurred. Which is extensive.

Sadly a 650 volt insulated signalling cable won't insulate against direct contact with a 25000 volt bare cable, the fuses within the S&T cabinets will not provide any protection whatsoever against the 25000 voltage and fault current so it will like at Stafford last year do considerable damage to the signalling system.

 

[Class377/5]

I don't understand why sevenoaks services are being diverted to victoria rather up to blackfriars, though.

Are the bays even being used?

Historically that's always been the way. Blackfrairs bays has the Loop services with through lines seeing Brighton to City so it's a bit tight for space.

I'm going to give an alternative explanation, though it's speculative.

Govia wish to minimise the disruption to services south of the river and are running trains in their relevant paths when possible, with their relevant descriptors, south of Blackfriars.

This obviously has the benefit of having less effect on customers south of the river, but the cynic in me wonders if this arrangement is due to it being economically beneficial for GoVia. lf for example a train runs as a Bedford to Brighton service, with stops north of the river cancelled, could it be that GoVia incur lower penalties? Of course they may well claim the money back from NR but that's another matter entirely.

Last night during the chaos, they certainly kept changing trains headcodes on the fly (3 times on one train in the space of 10 minutes). My immediate thought was that is was due to it being more beneficial to run it as another service closer to booked time.

As I said, speculation.

And complete crap. NR gave GTR 3tph on MML and that's it. GTR then had to build a service. Worth noting in events like this it's NR who decides how many trains can work.

As for last night, it's common for NR to refuse late running trains (specially when your talking over an hour like some were) and it's affects on the other services can be bad. So headcodes nearer the booked time are told to be used. Plus it doesn't help if you have no replied down the line so changing headcodes means you might have a relief Driver and can run a service throughout. What headcodes are used don't matter that much to passengers but ability to run a train is.

 

[43074]

The programme. Problem is comparing today with 2018 isn't comparing like for like. I truly believe that come 2018 with a robustly resourced service that it can cope with issues far better than today. Every time I look into it (and show others the working out) it's all possible. Just today we don't have the full range of stuff that we will do.

Given the GTR 2018 timetable consultation has options for skip-stopping (e.g. St Mary Cray or Swanley on the Maidstone East to Cambridge service) to make the service robust, I will believe this when I see it...

 

[fusionblue]

Historically that's always been the way. Blackfrairs bays has the Loop services with through lines seeing Brighton to City so it's a bit tight for space.

It just gives the impression (and this happens almost every time) it's "SET's responsibility now".

 

[Class377/5]

It just gives the impression (and this happens almost every time) it's "SET's responsibility now".

Up until a few months ago it was. However there is a set plan in place for the Sevenoaks services.

EDIT:

Just seen it confirmed that the problems will continue through to Thursday.

 

[asylumxl]

And complete crap. NR gave GTR 3tph on MML and that's it. GTR then had to build a service. Worth noting in events like this it's NR who decides how many trains can work.

Then what benefit is there to not implementing it as an emergency timetable, as FCC used to do during extended periods of disruption?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Then what benefit is there to not implementing it as an emergency timetable, as FCC used to do during extended periods of disruption?

The Track Access and Network code gives NR the right to "impose" a certain level of capacity (slots or paths - call them what you will) , but it must be done equitably for all operators - contingency plans have to be agreed broadly in advance and by conference calls / Control meetings on the day.

This thread has obviously explored some of the issues in this incident - and there are obvious capacity limitations of an "extreme" nature - roughly 20 London bound paths through St Albans is reduced to about 5 or 6.

Anyway - in passing , let us not forget those NR staff out there in the dark and wet , implementing temporary block working , let alone those trying to sort out the relay room issues , and of course the drivers and station staff in the midst of all this.

 

[asylumxl]

The Track Access and Network code gives NR the right to "impose" a certain level of capacity (slots or paths - call them what you will) , but it must be done equitably for all operators - contingency plans have to be agreed broadly in advance and by conference calls / Control meetings on the day.

This thread has obviously explored some of the issues in this incident - and there are obvious capacity limitations of an "extreme" nature - roughly 20 London bound paths through St Albans is reduced to about 5 or 6.

Anyway - in passing , let us not forget those NR staff out there in the dark and wet , implementing temporary block working , let alone those trying to sort out the relay room issues , and of course the drivers and station staff in the midst of all this.

But that's not where I was talking about. I was talking about south of Blackfriars.

 

[Class377/5]

But that's not where I was talking about. I was talking about south of Blackfriars.

To keep what is running robust they were using City to turn around Brighton services with the bays given over to Loop services. St Pancras was used to turn Bedford services.

South of the river there isn't the paths to just implement anything other than the booked service. So as a result you construct something that can be reliable rather than stuff it full of trains. The 2wxx paths weren't used at the Brighton to Core services are the only services that serve all stations to/from Brighton to BML so they are required. Spilt services requires more trains as well due to extra layover time required.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But that's not where I was talking about. I was talking about south of Blackfriars.

Agreed contingency plans will apply through a "split service" as we have today and yesterday , no doubt there will be a review of the issues and effects. South and SE London does have some alternatives , unpalatable as they might be for the users , agree though that Swanley - Sevenoaks is a problem if zapped from the City...

 

[Failed Unit]

That is what I will be interested to see what if this happened somewhere in 2018?

Great Northern could run through the core. But would the just split to allow the other route to turn? I know London Bridge will have platforms to terminate trains but again it will not have lots of surplus capacity as Southern will still be using it.

If this happened would st Pancras high level be used for Bedford to keep the core running for great northern?

 

[The Box Photter]

That is what I will be interested to see what if this happened somewhere in 2018?

Great Northern could run through the core. But would the just split to allow the other route to turn? I know London Bridge will have platforms to terminate trains but again it will not have lots of surplus capacity as Southern will still be using it.

If this happened would st Pancras high level be used for Bedford to keep the core running for great northern?

I expect that St Pancras High Level would struggle to provide any spare capacity for Bedford trains.

Luckily I was able to work at home today, but can't tomorrow. Dreading the chaos.

Really struggling to understand how GTR can justify 1 train per hour London to Bedford AND have it calling at all stations. Surely there must be capacity for a more frequent service.

 

[Failed Unit]

I expect that St Pancras High Level would struggle to provide any spare capacity for Bedford trains.

Luckily I was able to work at home today, but can't tomorrow. Dreading the chaos.

Really struggling to understand how GTR can justify 1 train per hour London to Bedford AND have it calling at all stations. Surely there must be capacity for a more frequent service.

Normally I would agree, but today midland mainline only had 2 TPH so it may have done. If an incident exists on MML I would be surprised if they could run a full service to provide some more capacity at the high level.

 

[westcoaster]

I expect that St Pancras High Level would struggle to provide any spare capacity for Bedford trains.

Luckily I was able to work at home today, but can't tomorrow. Dreading the chaos.

Really struggling to understand how GTR can justify 1 train per hour London to Bedford AND have it calling at all stations. Surely there must be capacity for a more frequent service.

The service pattern is set by NR not GTR, you have to factor in all of the time it takes to operate through TBW , if it takes one train 15-20 minster to go through the section, that soon adds up.
Then there is the workload being placed onto one signaller.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Some pictures of the Hillary Clinton* signals at Luton today



*all the lights have gone out

 

[Abpj17]

Any thoughts/knowledge etc. yet on how repairs are progressing and what service tomorrow might look like?

 

[G0ORC]

Any thoughts/knowledge etc. yet on how repairs are progressing and what service tomorrow might look like?

There appears not to be a common message...

Here, Thameslink say the disruption continues tomorrow...

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/

but here - EMT says its all over bar the shouting..

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/?hootPostID=1a0f767f4697e294a467413d3a9b4563

I can't believe NR's Track Access Agreement with the train operators will allow one to be serviced more favourably than the other, so actually, just what is happening?

 

[Class377/5]

There appears not to be a common message...

Here, Thameslink say the disruption continues tomorrow...

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/

but here - EMT says its all over bar the shouting..

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/?hootPostID=1a0f767f4697e294a467413d3a9b4563

I can't believe NR's Track Access Agreement with the train operators will allow one to be serviced more favourably than the other, so actually, just what is happening?

There are 3 trains an hour allowed. Thameslink have 2, EMT 1 compared to the normal running where Thameslink run atleast twice as many services plus call at all stations where EMT only call Bedford, Luton and St Albans. You could argue that if you terminate the EMT at Bedford, Thameslink could then provide 3tph to all stations increasing capacity by 50%. However as EMT has track access rights, they are entitled to a path.

Any thoughts/knowledge etc. yet on how repairs are progressing and what service tomorrow might look like?

Same again tomorrow, 3 trains an hour allowed. This isn't a quick fix.

 

[G0ORC]

There are 3 trains an hour allowed. Thameslink have 2, EMT 1 compared to the normal running where Thameslink run atleast twice as many services plus call at all stations where EMT only call Bedford, Luton and St Albans. You could argue that if you terminate the EMT at Bedford, Thameslink could then provide 3tph to all stations increasing capacity by 50%. However as EMT has track access rights, they are entitled to a path.

That's fine, but how can EMT run a near normal service (4 cancellations in the morning and one in the evening, according to their website) if they only have one up and one down path an hour?

See here..

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk...rnal SX NRT 4tph 10-Nov-16 Northbound NEW.pdf

and here...

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk...rnal SX NRT 4tph 10-Nov-16 Southbound NEW.pdf

Between 0829 and 0929 from London there are no fewer than five EMT departures all through the TBW - 0829, 0856, 0915, 0926 and 0929 and that sort of pattern continues all day.

On the up its the same story...