Wires down at Luton (8/11/16)

[bramling]

Completely disagree. But then I'm comparing what is possible based in facts.

Well we won't have to wait too long too see what happens for real.

Thameslink is a fragile, unreliable, shambles. Performance is absolutely woeful, and that's no exaggeration.

If the infrastructure can't be made to work reliably now, a reliable 24tph is a complete dream. The powers that be need to snap out of the Thameslink Programme Dreamworld, and enter reality.

I'm tired of reading excuses for this unreliable joke of a train service.

 

[Hadders]

I'd have thought the right thing to do here with only 3tph available would be to terminate all EMTs at Bedford and run a 3tph all station service with 12-car 700s between Bedford and St Pancras.

If Bedford has insufficient capacity to turn all EMT services then allow one 10-car EMT to run through non-stop to St Pancras and run 2 12-car 700s all stations between Bedford and St Pancras.

 

[Bald Rick]

Plan is for partial restoration tomorrow, with 5tph on fasts, 3 tph on slows (using temporary block working on the latter)

Fasts split 4:1 EM / TL, slows all TL

Add in St Albans terminators.

 

[louis97]

That's fine, but how can EMT run a near normal service (4 cancellations in the morning and one in the evening, according to their website) if they only have one up and one down path an hour?

See here..

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk...rnal SX NRT 4tph 10-Nov-16 Northbound NEW.pdf

and here...

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk...rnal SX NRT 4tph 10-Nov-16 Southbound NEW.pdf

Between 0829 and 0929 from London there are no fewer than five EMT departures all through the TBW - 0829, 0856, 0915, 0926 and 0929 and that sort of pattern continues all day.

On the up its the same story...

Tomorrow it isn't TBW on the fast lines, just on the slow lines where it is 3tph. On the fast line signalling is via the override system and it is supposed to be 4tph EMT and 1tph GTR. The service EMT are not running is the Corby, not sure if its a train shuttle or a bus shuttle from Kettering.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thameslink is a fragile, unreliable, shambles. Performance is absolutely woeful, and that's no exaggeration.

If the infrastructure can't be made to work reliably now, a reliable 24tph is a complete dream. The powers that be need to snap out of the Thameslink Programme Dreamworld, and enter reality.

I'm tired of reading excuses for this unreliable joke of a train service.

this has nothing to do with the Thameslink programme. If the same problem had happened at, say, Stevenage, it would be the same on the ECML.

 

[bramling]

this has nothing to do with the Thameslink programme. If the same problem had happened at, say, Stevenage, it would be the same on the ECML.

The thing is that it just happens *far* more often on Thameslink. It really does seem to be up the wall almost every day at present.

Yes it probably would be the same if it happened at Stevenage - although of course today the disruption wouldn't spread south of King's Cross. The GN route does of course have the benefit of the Hertford Loop, and two northern branches. These factors combine to reduce the probability of being badly affected by a problem at a specific location, hence the GN side's superior reliability. In 2018 we'll be changing to a railway which will have a much greater mileage of railway which can be brought to a stand by a single point of failure.

 

[G0ORC]

Tomorrow it isn't TBW on the fast lines, just on the slow lines where it is 3tph. On the fast line signalling is via the override system and it is supposed to be 4tph EMT and 1tph GTR. The service EMT are not running is the Corby, not sure if its a train shuttle or a bus shuttle from Kettering.

Thank you for that - it certainly couldn't be as Class377/5 said.

I remember over-ride - to watch the panel when the system was in over-ride would frighten you to death. Over-ride sets a straight up and down route and what you have to remember is that whilst all signals function normally outside, what is seen on the panel must be ignored...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plan is for partial restoration tomorrow, with 5tph on fasts, 3 tph on slows (using temporary block working on the latter)

Fasts split 4:1 EM / TL, slows all TL

Add in St Albans terminators.

Thanks Rick - I think the S&T staff have done a remarkable job in getting even limited signalling back in this short time-frame bearing in mind the extent of the damage...

 

[Bald Rick]

That is what I will be interested to see what if this happened somewhere in 2018?

Great Northern could run through the core. But would the just split to allow the other route to turn? I know London Bridge will have platforms to terminate trains but again it will not have lots of surplus capacity as Southern will still be using it.

If this happened would st Pancras high level be used for Bedford to keep the core running for great northern?

Pretty much the same as now I would have thought. ECML services through the core (8tph peak) would run as normal. In the event of a complete block at Luton, services from the south that terminate south of Luton (4tph) would run (almost) as normal. Of the remaining 12 tph from the south that terminate at Luton or Bedford there are options as follows

1) be cancelled throughout (2 or 4)
2) operate to Blackfriars bays (2)
3) operate to London Bridge terminus platforms (2 or 4)
4) operate in service to St Pancras LL, then empty to Hornsey or Cricklewood to reverse and back in correct slot. (4)

All subject to having sufficient drivers and trains south of Luton of course. And there are variations on the above depending on circumstances.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks Rick - I think the S&T staff have done a remarkable job in getting even limited signalling back in this short time-frame bearing in mind the extent of the damage...

In my near 1/4 century in the industry, all over the country, I have never known an incident like this in terms of root cause, the effect on remote signalling systems, and complication of rectification. The equipment concerned has, however, just entered its 38th year of service.

 

[Sunset route]

I remember over-ride - to watch the panel when the system was in over-ride would frighten you to death. Over-ride sets a straight up and down route and what you have to remember is that whilst all signals function normally outside, what is seen on the panel must be ignored...

It's only scary because there is no chance to practice with an over-ride system, during the day there are too many trains and over night there are too many possessions to protect. I've have personally had indication failures and control failures as well as assisting unsure colleges on more than one occasion when over-ride has had to be used. It is certainly interesting to watch and uasally gets a lot of spectators from other panels watching it go into operation.

 

[AM9]

Despite the slip in the MML electrification programme, will yet another MKIIIb OLE failure help a case for something more robust, e.g. proper gantries with independent conductor registration along the lines of series 1?

 

[Bald Rick]

The thing is that it just happens *far* more often on Thameslink. It really does seem to be up the wall almost every day at present.

I'm not sure it does though. For sure the Brighton line is in a real mess, but that isn't all about infrastructure as well rehearsed elsewhere on this forum.

But in my time of commuting in the MML, there seem to have been just as many major issues on the ECML. E.g. At least 3 major evacuations of Kings Cross box, various wires down incidents (many more than on MML) and the almost routine problems in the Moorgate branch.

The one major difference I notice is snow, where the MML service packs up but the ECML keeps working. I put this down partly due to the 319s which really don't like the snow, whereas the 365s and 313s cope much better. It will be interesting to see how the 700s get on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Despite the slip in the MML electrification programme, will yet another MKIIIb OLE failure help a case for something more robust, e.g. proper gantries with independent conductor registration along the lines of series 1?

I'm not sure this was an OLE failure. AIUI it was a signalling cable that fell onto the OLE, not the other way round. Certainly there were no repairs to the OLE required.

 

[G0ORC]

It's only scary because there is no chance to practice with an over-ride system, during the day there are too many trains and over night there are too many possessions to protect. I've have personally had indication failures and control failures as well as assisting unsure colleges on more than one occasion when over-ride has had to be used. It is certainly interesting to watch and uasally gets a lot of spectators from other panels watching it go into operation.

I remember going into over-ride once at Stenson Junction, many years ago - it was all indication failure of course, but routes would suddenly appear which appeared to put trains in conflict with one another and scare you silly.

It was the first time I'd ever seen over-ride in action and in my ten years or so at Derby I think we only used it three times. Stenson twice and Duffield once....

As you say, its not something the signallers get to practice on, is it.

 

[bramling]

But in my time of commuting in the MML, there seem to have been just as many major issues on the ECML. E.g. At least 3 major evacuations of Kings Cross box, various wires down incidents (many more than on MML) and the almost routine problems in the Moorgate branch.

This simply isn't my experience. I use GN on a regular basis, on a comparable level to a commuter although I don't necessarily travel at traditional times. Sure issues do occur, but for example I can't recall a single day this year when I've found the service to be badly disrupted to meltdown levels -- with the notable exception of the current driver availability shambles. In fact, the last day I can recall when I have used a service comparable to the regular Thameslink meltdowns was the 27th December engineering work overrun shambles of a couple of years back. The general GN experience is you turn up at the station, the train turns broadly up on time, and by and large you reach your destination broadly on time -- especially in the down direction.

Sure, things happen, sure delays happen from time to time, but in general the service is reliable and dependable. On the comparatively rare occasions when things do go wrong, however, late running can quickly snowball due to the combinations of stopping patterns clashing on a congested railway.

If something goes wrong on the Peterborough line, you still have trains reaching London from the Cambridge line. If something goes wrong between Stevenage and Alexandra Palance then you have the Hertford loop. Large proportions of the route have four (or more) tracks. We don't have to worry about getting caught up with third-rail problems like during ice/snow.

These factors, combined with the simple statistical probability of less mileage meaning less chance for things to go wrong, *guarantees* Great Northern will always be more reliable without Thameslink. The regular Thameslink meltdowns which seem to be happening on a regular basis just keep on demonstrating this, and it's about time DFT and others woke up to this reality.

The one major difference I notice is snow, where the MML service packs up but the ECML keeps working. I put this down partly due to the 319s which really don't like the snow, whereas the 365s and 313s cope much better. It will be interesting to see how the 700s get on.

Glad you acknowledge that the GN is normally pretty good in winter weather. The 317s/321s seem ok in winter weather, wonder why the 319s should be such an issue?

 

[Bald Rick]

This simply isn't my experience. I use GN on a regular basis, on a comparable level to a commuter although I don't necessarily travel at traditional times.

Well I use TL to commute, and usually it is a pretty good service. The last week or so has not been good, and there are two evening peak trains where the timetable just doesn't work so are routinely late (yes I'm looking at you 1W94 and 1W96). But otherwise reliable, particularly in the morning where my trains are usually right time (to the minute) at Blackfriars. What does happen is that when it does go wrong, it goes wrong spectacularly. However in the 13 years of commuting, I have had to resort to alternative routes less than once a year on average, half of those due to snow. The other big ones I remember are a massive dewirement at Radlett, the Clerkenwell floods, the stricken CSR mast at Harpenden and the multi-signal failure in the core in 2011. There must be others but I don't remember them.

On the other hand, I've had cause to use the GN several times in the last 3 weeks, and every single train has been late. More than 15 mins this morning.

 

[Abpj17]

Yeah, it feels like EMT have got significantly better access. And those with the least alternatives (aka Bedford to Harpenden users) have essentially one train an hour with no guidance over when in the hour it might leave...

(Altho Rick's numbers are more promising than those on the previous page)

Rick - and the part-day meltdowns every time a train pulls the wires down at City Thamelink...

 

[Signal Head]

Thank you for that - it certainly couldn't be as Class377/5 said.

I remember over-ride - to watch the panel when the system was in over-ride would frighten you to death. Over-ride sets a straight up and down route and what you have to remember is that whilst all signals function normally outside, what is seen on the panel must be ignored...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thanks Rick - I think the S&T staff have done a remarkable job in getting even limited signalling back in this short time-frame bearing in mind the extent of the damage...

The fact that the signalling is working in override suggests the normal TDM remote control has taken a hit. Since the override merely drives the same interlocking and lineside kit that is normally worked by the panel, that side of the system must have been not too badly damaged, or has been quickly repaired. Not sure what the TDM is now in these interlockings, if still the original from the WH installation then spares might be an issue.

The photo I've sen elsewhere looks like a signal tail cable hanging off the signal gantry.

We had a similar incident years ago (northern WCML), only in that case it was the corrugated steel backboard on a signal cage that fell off due to corrosion around the fixings, and came to rest on the OLE whilst still partially attached to the signal gantry. I think the structure bond was also detached, so the traction found a path via the signal head, tail cable, and the location case. From what I remember, damage was fairly localised, although it caused enough delay that immediate inspection of all other similar structures was ordered.

 

[ItchyRsole]

So currently this issue has been ongoing since 14.40 on Tuesday yet GTR have no replacement buses booked until 08.00 today from one of their busiest stations on the line, St Albans.

How the hell do they get away with it?! I appreciate the major infrastructure problems and am very thankful to the NR working around the clock to amend the issues, but there's noting wrong with the roads. A full replacement bus service should of been provided to reflect the majority of their timetable.

 

[AM9]

... I'm not sure this was an OLE failure. AIUI it was a signalling cable that fell onto the OLE, not the other way round. Certainly there were no repairs to the OLE required.

OK, I didn't know the details of this event , I'd just heard talk of 'Wires down at Luton' as is the title of this thread.
My point is still relevant though. Headspans over 4-track high-speed mainlines are always liable to transform a simple delinquent pantograph or tension/alignment issue into a complete route closure whilst all the knitting is patched up and sometimes, more pantographs replaced.
As an expert in OLE here has posted several times before that independent registration is a key issue in the availability of major routes, and sooner or later, the continued use of an '80s cheap fix will be seen as a false economy with current traffic levels.
As has been shown on the GEML, modern components that reduce the HV footprint can be fitted with a tolerable level of service disruption. I know that the GE already had the ancient LNER design portals but as has been shown possessions.

 

[stut]

So currently this issue has been ongoing since 14.40 on Tuesday yet GTR have no replacement buses booked until 08.00 today from one of their busiest stations on the line, St Albans.

How the hell do they get away with it?! I appreciate the major infrastructure problems and am very thankful to the NR working around the clock to amend the issues, but there's noting wrong with the roads. A full replacement bus service should of been provided to reflect the majority of their timetable.

In fairness to GTR... There just aren't that many buses kicking around doing nothing at that time in the morning. They can use school buses between school run times (or weekends/holidays), but not many transport companies can really afford to have buses just sitting there unused.

However, telling people there were buses from Hitchin/Sneets the other night when there weren't, and were no plans to get... That's bad.

 

[G0ORC]

So currently this issue has been ongoing since 14.40 on Tuesday yet GTR have no replacement buses booked until 08.00 today from one of their busiest stations on the line, St Albans.

How the hell do they get away with it?! I appreciate the major infrastructure problems and am very thankful to the NR working around the clock to amend the issues, but there's noting wrong with the roads. A full replacement bus service should of been provided to reflect the majority of their timetable.

..and there are hundreds of buses and drivers all standing around doing nothing, just waiting for something like this to happen.

Bus companies, like rail operators do not have scarce resources doing nothing.

I would have thought very little would be available until after school contracts had been fulfilled which certainly would be after 0800...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The fact that the signalling is working in override suggests the normal TDM remote control has taken a hit. Since the override merely drives the same interlocking and lineside kit that is normally worked by the panel, that side of the system must have been not too badly damaged, or has been quickly repaired. Not sure what the TDM is now in these interlockings, if still the original from the WH installation then spares might be an issue.

The photo I've sen elsewhere looks like a signal tail cable hanging off the signal gantry.

We had a similar incident years ago (northern WCML), only in that case it was the corrugated steel backboard on a signal cage that fell off due to corrosion around the fixings, and came to rest on the OLE whilst still partially attached to the signal gantry. I think the structure bond was also detached, so the traction found a path via the signal head, tail cable, and the location case. From what I remember, damage was fairly localised, although it caused enough delay that immediate inspection of all other similar structures was ordered.

Thank you for that - its a real tribute to the NR signalling technicians that they have the system even partially running after all of the damage. Without looking it up West Hampstead must be around 40 years old so it is to be hoped that the original equipment has been updated at some point...

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm not sure it does though. For sure the Brighton line is in a real mess, but that isn't all about infrastructure as well rehearsed elsewhere on this forum.

But in my time of commuting in the MML, there seem to have been just as many major issues on the ECML. E.g. At least 3 major evacuations of Kings Cross box, various wires down incidents (many more than on MML) and the almost routine problems in the Moorgate branch.

The one major difference I notice is snow, where the MML service packs up but the ECML keeps working. I put this down partly due to the 319s which really don't like the snow, whereas the 365s and 313s cope much better. It will be interesting to see how the 700s get on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not sure this was an OLE failure. AIUI it was a signalling cable that fell onto the OLE, not the other way round. Certainly there were no repairs to the OLE required.

That's a very high signalling cable, if it was able to drop onto the OHLE. From a gantry? I would not have thought that there were loose cables on gantries to be able to do this.

 

[asylumxl]

That's a very high signalling cable, if it was able to drop onto the OHLE. From a gantry? I would not have thought that there were loose cables on gantries to be able to do this.

I'm not sure, but I'd imagine it was on the gantry signals at the north end of Luton station.

 

[Antman]

..and there are hundreds of buses and drivers all standing around doing nothing, just waiting for something like this to happen.

Bus companies, like rail operators do not have scarce resources doing nothing.

I would have thought very little would be available until after school contracts had been fulfilled which certainly would be after 0800...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thank you for that - its a real tribute to the NR signalling technicians that they have the system even partially running after all of the damage. Without looking it up West Hampstead must be around 40 years old so it is to be hoped that the original equipment has been updated at some point...

Although some operators do have contingency plans in place, Ensign for example.

 

[hwl]

I'm not sure, but I'd imagine it was on the gantry signals at the north end of Luton station.

That is what it looks like from the photo...

 

[fusionblue]

In comparison to the rest of the Thameslink network, only the Sevenoaks and Sutton loops seem to be the most reliable (in that there isn't signalling problems or infrastructure issues on such massive scales as Luton or the core generally).

Any idea why this is? What are they doing "right"?

 

[Class377/5]

In comparison to the rest of the Thameslink network, only the Sevenoaks and Sutton loops seem to be the most reliable (in that there isn't signalling problems or infrastructure issues on such massive scales as Luton or the core generally).

Any idea why this is? What are they doing "right"?

ack of interactions with other services. On Sutton other than Herne Hill and Tulse Hill to Sutton, the trains are all thier own.

Plus Sutton/Brighton services are booked timetable as far as the Core. Three Bridges is completely caped. Sevenoaks I believe is running to booked time on hourly service with new headcodes diverted to Victoria.

 

[Deepgreen]

ack of interactions with other services. On Sutton other than Herne Hill and Tulse Hill to Sutton, the trains are all thier own.

Plus Sutton/Brighton services are booked timetable as far as the Core. Three Bridges is completely caped. Sevenoaks I believe is running to booked time on hourly service with new headcodes diverted to Victoria.

Is this to keep the rain off?

 

[tsr]

Is this to keep the rain off?

CAPE/CAPEd is railway (in fact ex-railway telegraph transmission) shorthand for "Cancelled At Point of Entry", ie. service cancelled in its entirety, from the very start of its booked journey on the network.

 

[SAPhil]

..and there are hundreds of buses and drivers all standing around doing nothing, just waiting for something like this to happen.

Bus companies, like rail operators do not have scarce resources doing nothing.

I would have thought very little would be available until after school contracts had been fulfilled which certainly would be after 0800...

Yet FCC used to manage this quite well. It was one of the few things they did that impressed me

 

[jon0844]

Yet FCC used to manage this quite well. It was one of the few things they did that impressed me

Yes, they managed to get buses pretty quickly. They seemed to have a process they could trigger very quickly to get buses, which could make all the difference.

Suggesting people use Uno buses between St Albans and Hatfield is fine, except the frequency isn't great and many of the buses go a rather long route around south Hatfield, the University. Plus, of course, they're often very full of students.

I guess the Arriva services may have worked better, but if you're moving train loads of people to another line, you must have your own buses and with TL being a 24 hour railway and GN not that far off (first train around 4am) then I'd have expected shuttles running throughout the night and morning.