HST v Voyager (Cross Country)

[Bungle965]

The nuisance of slamdoors is twofold - having to awkwardly lean out of the window to open them (which sort-of made sense before central locking, but now doesn't) and that people leave them open because train doors normally close themselves.

Neither of those is of course a problem with the UIC slamdoor.

Having to lean out of a window to open a door is, i agree not ideal but is a small price to pay for not having to sit for however long on a smelly overcrowded voyager.

I had a very uncomfortable experience involving a 221 yesterday evening. It was horrible...

Oh dear.
Sam

 

[yorksrob]

The nuisance of slamdoors is twofold - having to awkwardly lean out of the window to open them (which sort-of made sense before central locking, but now doesn't) and that people leave them open because train doors normally close themselves.

Neither of those is of course a problem with the UIC slamdoor.

An extremely minor and insignificant nuisance in the greater scheme of things.

 

[Bungle965]

An extremely minor and insignificant nuisance in the greater scheme of things.

Gives you chance to get a bit of fresh air also.
Sam

 

[yorksrob]

Gives you chance to get a bit of fresh air also.
Sam

Quite. Particularly with a hangover !

 

[FQ]

Oh dear.
Sam

Yep. The service that both dad and I were booked on in 1st class out of Warrington back to Coventry (the 18:39) came in as a single 221 when it was a booked pendo (and we had seat reservations to show that! Booked after the WCML blockage) and 1st class was absolutely rammed, nearly to the point that you couldn't get on from what we saw...

...before looking up other ways to get home. There is one more service back direct to Coventry at 19:41 but with the 17:39 and 18:39 both booked 390s (neither were what they were meant to be), we thought that that one would be a 221 as well. So with that, we looked up train times via Mancc, meaning that we would have to get new tickets and suffer half an hour on a 175 back to Manchester, 45 minutes in Mancc, another 30 minutes on a 390 in standard and then an hour on a dez back to New Street for a quarter of an hour wait until a 390 back to Cov, getting home 2 hours later than planned. That option then went out of the window when the 18:46 to Mancc rolled in with a 150. I won't say any more (to try and stay on topic because I love this topic so much) so you'll just have to wait for the trip report if you want to hear what happened next or alternatively PM me.

Sorry mods, back on topic now!

 

[Domh245]

This irks me; why do apparently intelligent people find the concept of slam doors such a challenge?

I personally don't find them a challenge, I find them a bit of a nuisance. Having to open the window and reach through to operate the door handle is a rather archaic way of doing things.

 

[BestWestern]

I personally don't find them a challenge, I find them a bit of a nuisance. Having to open the window and reach through to operate the door handle is a rather archaic way of doing things.

I would suggest that for most people it detracts from the enjoyment of a journey significantly less than being crammed into a hot, sewage smelling Voyager vestibule. Indeed, if the Voyager also had slam doors the droplights would offer some considerable relief from this all too familiar unpleasantry. Of course, that particular benefit is not required on the HST. Oh the irony... :roll:

 

[tbtc]

Its not much of a surprise that replacing a shorter train with a longer one is going to be more popular than replacing a longer train with a shorter one.

Also, by the time the Meridians turned up on the MML, it had already had a significant increase in capacity (whereas more frequent shorter trains on XC might not have represented the same increase)

Precisely - the vast majority of the dislike for them is because of (a) the fact that they are too short and (b) what they replaced.

Look at all of the subsequent moans on this thread about "standing in the vestibules" (which wouldn't happen if they had extra carriages).

But once people find a reason to dislike something (e.g. disliking a train because it's busy... which means they stand next to the toilets, which means they notice the toilet smell more...) they really go to town!

Lets list two reasons why travellers (note the spelling!) would hate voyagers. You don't need to be an enthusiast to understand these ones.

1. Overcrowding. They are simply far too small, and they don't even use the space efficiently. You can fit more people in a 3 car 159 than you can in a 4 car voyager. People resent having to stand from New Street to Reading. This has happened to me more than once, despite having reserved seats. When I got on at New Street, the train was packed, and I couldn't make it to my seat until Oxford, whereupon I found it occupied. The only solution to this is longer trains. The other issue with overcrowding is that they are narrow inside because of the tilt profile. This really exacerbates the feeling of being crammed in.

2. The smell. There are two unpleasant smells on an overcrowded voyager.

a) Sewage. Not overly common on VT Voyagers as they spend the money masking the smell, but on XC Voyagers, that smell is there almost all the time. This problem is thankfully fixed on Meridians.

b) Sweat. Commuters in the South East know this one as well as it is a common problem on commuter trains and on the tube. Overcrowded spaces tend to get warm. Even where there is air conditioning.

This isn't so bad when you're going to Woking from Waterloo or Reading from Paddington, (although those trains generally don't smell of crap), but being sat (or just as often stood) in a stinky train on a long distance journey is quite unacceptable.

For those two reasons alone many would welcome more HSTs (or other longer trains) on XC.

So, in short, they are too busy (plus the fact that they are busy means that you are crammed in next to smelly passengers).

In which case the same would be true of short HST rakes?

I would imagine people standing on a packed HST would also have a poor opinion of them...

Yes!

Most of the complaints about unsuitably-short Voyagers would be the same of unsuitably-short HSTs (i.e. it's not the train, it's the length of the train). Yet we keep having these arguments...

I only wish they would have made them longer, and if the e voyager conversion had taken place (but for various reasons they did not) They are bloody quick and if i dare say it, when they accelerate they make quite a good sound

True - I'd forgotten about "Project Thor" - it's a real shame that this didn't work out - especially if we'd known five years ago that we'd see the delays/ stalemate in respect of other stock/ projects - we'd really have appreciated that capacity now.

Voyagers are acceptable form of transport for me when they meet these 3 things.
1) Not horrendously overcrowded.
2) When the bog does not smell.
3) When you don't end up having a seat that has little or no view of the outside world

When was the last stock built that gave everyone a good view out of a window though?

The Voyagers aren't perfect for this but pretty much no stock is (dating back to BR days).

It's another thing that Voyagers are criticised for that other stock doesn't seem to attract criticism for (other than IEP - many people on here seem to like to moan about the fact that IEP won't have seats lining up with windows... unlike, erm, the high density GWR HSTs that don't have great window alignment )

No one doubts that the Voyagers are too small for the numbers of travellers who wish to use them, that however doesn't make them a bad train, rater a poor choice of unit to use for the services that they are used on

True.

The original plans for 222s would have seen nine coach Meridians running from London to Leeds - I'd wager that if Virgin had ordered nine coach Voyagers then we'd see most of the "other" complaints about them fade away

The problem is they are on a fixed lease, meaning to use something else would mean paying for the Voyager and the extra unit (if there was any spare anyway)

XC and LM both seem to have regrettable leases, whereby they have little/no incentive to provide additional capacity (as it'd cost them too much). Shame.

In some areas XC will see some relief from other TOC's running more services

The new "fast" Northern service from Sheffield to Leeds (the Nottingham - Bradford express) will take around 45m which is comparable to the journey time on a Voyager, so should attract a number of passengers away from XC (in comparison the current "fastest" Northern services take an hour to cover around forty miles as the crow flies).

There's going to be more capacity from Reading to Oxford (GWR), there's going to be more capacity from Leeds/ York to Newcastle/ Edinburgh (TPE and VTEC)...

...the biggest problem will be around Birmingham, which won't see big capacity increases on other TOCs (based on current plans) until HS2 arrives (by which time the one hour Birmingham - Leeds service will take half the time that the current XC services can manage).

The irony of which being they are a retrofit. There is no technical reason that Voyagers could not be retrofitted with more sockets. As built they had none at all - who would have needed them when most work was done on paper and even a Sony Walkman with replaceable batteries was the height of technology?

True.

Amazing how technology has changed in around fifteen years.

Mk3s of course have their own aircon intake problem - the amount of brake whiff that comes in.

Yes, but apparently that's a *nice* smell (just like a loud engine hauling LHCS is a *nice* noise)... if Received Wisdom on this Forum is anything to go by

 

[The Ham]

True - I'd forgotten about "Project Thor" - it's a real shame that this didn't work out - especially if we'd known five years ago that we'd see the delays/ stalemate in respect of other stock/ projects - we'd really have appreciated that capacity now.

The original plans for 222s would have seen nine coach Meridians running from London to Leeds - I'd wager that if Virgin had ordered nine coach Voyagers then we'd see most of the "other" complaints about them fade away

The new "fast" Northern service from Sheffield to Leeds (the Nottingham - Bradford express) will take around 45m which is comparable to the journey time on a Voyager, so should attract a number of passengers away from XC (in comparison the current "fastest" Northern services take an hour to cover around forty miles as the crow flies).

There's going to be more capacity from Reading to Oxford (GWR), there's going to be more capacity from Leeds/ York to Newcastle/ Edinburgh (TPE and VTEC)...

...the biggest problem will be around Birmingham, which won't see big capacity increases on other TOCs (based on current plans) until HS2 arrives (by which time the one hour Birmingham - Leeds service will take half the time that the current XC services can manage).

I wonder if we don't end up with a project Thor lite, where Voyagers end up as bi-modal trains by means of reforming them into longer sets and engineering of the end coaches (which can take their time as there would likely be spare to form the longer sets) to enable the insertion of Pantographs.

Although it would cost a lot it could mean that the Voyagers continued to be leased, as a bi-modal (say) 7 coach train would be of great value to TOC's, it could also be applied to the 222 fleet so that they have a use post 2025.

Of course there would still be a need for new trains for XC.

The thinking about the releaf given to XC was more to do with thinking that XC may not need to provide significant capacity increased to the outer edges of parts of its network (although some would be needed) as such XC could run doubled up units over the core (7+4?) rather than running very long trains the full length of their routes.

The other are is through Cornwall with extra services run by GW, rather than the XC service picking up that demand.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The Voyagers are fine, so long as you've got a window seat and enough beer to last the journey.

That's my view also!

 

[Skipness]

Is it correct that HSTs are more resilient to adverse weather conditions than Voyagers when traversing Dawlish?
Re. slam doors. Not popular with dispatchers because of passengers failing to close a door. As an aside I still have memories from the sixties of travelling from Darlington to York on a NE to SW service made up of ex GWR coaches where the exterior handle had to be manually turned to lock the door, and of station staff at York sprinting alongside a departing train to return the handles to horizontal!

 

[sprinterguy]

The Voyagers are fine, so long as you've got a window seat and enough beer to last the journey.

Hear hear, that's certainly my favoured approach to Voyager travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it correct that HSTs are more resilient to adverse weather conditions than Voyagers when traversing Dawlish?

Yes. It's frustrating that as soon as there's a prospect of a particularly high tide or stormy weather at Dawlish that the XC South West services still get withdrawn west of Exeter.

 

[FQ]

When was the last stock built that gave everyone a good view out of a window though?

The Voyagers aren't perfect for this but pretty much no stock is (dating back to BR days).

Chiltern mk3s?

 

[ScouserGirl]

HSTs over voyagers any day!! Only problem with the voyagers also is if your coming past dawlish and the waves are bad voyagers cannot run due to the electronics on the roof! I know it's a different company but I do like GWRs HSTs!

 

[Minilad]

I would just like to point out I always get a seat with a window on Voyagers. And a very comfortable seat it is too!

 

[FQ]

Not all of us have the luxury of a front view seat!

 

[Iskra]

I would just like to point out I always get a seat with a window on Voyagers. And a very comfortable seat it is too!

Driver?

 

[Minilad]

Driver?

Indeed!

 

[Iskra]

Indeed!

So, the £million question. HST or Voyager, which do you prefer?

 

[Minilad]

So, the £million question. HST or Voyager, which do you prefer?

To drive. A Voyager is a much more comfortable and pleasant experience. Better cab. Quieter. Quicker. Better braking
As a passenger. HST obviously. No brainer

 

[Skipness]

To drive. A Voyager is a much more comfortable and pleasant experience. Better cab. Quieter. Quicker. Better braking
As a passenger. HST obviously. No brainer

A pity that this forum doesn't have a "like" button.

Would be interested to know which part(s) of the XC network you usually cover.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Not really.

A bit blunt, if I may so. That is just somebody's opinion!

I'm actually going to be one of those controversial members of the forum and pick a Voyager over a HST any day!

 

[Iskra]

A pity that this forum doesn't have a "like" button.

Would be interested to know which part(s) of the XC network you usually cover.

I believe Birmingham drivers who sign Voyagers and HST's drive Bristol-Newcastle, but I may be wrong. Possibly to Reading and Manchester too (Voyagers only).

 

[cjmillsnun]

So, in short, they are too busy (plus the fact that they are busy means that you are crammed in next to smelly passengers).

That and the toilet issue.

In which case the same would be true of short HST rakes?

Yes. VXC's idea for 5+2 HSTs would've been madness.

 

[Iskra]

That and the toilet issue.


Yes. VXC's idea for 5+2 HSTs would've been madness.

But still would be have provided more capacity than a voyager.

 

[Minilad]

A pity that this forum doesn't have a "like" button.

Would be interested to know which part(s) of the XC network you usually cover.

Based at New St
Sign Manchester, Bournemouth, Bristol, Derby/Nottingham, Leicester and Cardiff
Also sign 170s

 

[Class 170101]

HSTs over voyagers any day!! Only problem with the voyagers also is if your coming past dawlish and the waves are bad voyagers cannot run due to the electronics on the roof! I know it's a different company but I do like GWRs HSTs!

Hopefully the IEPs / AT300s won't have the Dawlish problem with the waves over the sea wall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. VXC's idea for 5+2 HSTs would've been madness.

Why? It's exactly what ScotRail are going to be doing with the ex-fGW ones.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Why? It's exactly what ScotRail are going to be doing with the ex-fGW ones.

Are the loading levels likely to be as high as XC? If so, then they should consider strengthening them.

On VXC it was madness because they would not have been long enough and would be overcrowded. That's my biggest gripe with Voyagers. They're too small for the job they are doing.

I can understand if platforms can't accommodate bigger trains, but that was not the case with VXC. They ran full formation HSTs and LHCS prior to getting Voyagers.

 

[The Ham]

But still would be have provided more capacity than a voyager.

Yes, on XC there could have been more capacity, however on the network as a whole there could be less capacity, as where are all the class 43's and Mark 3 coaches that XC would need to run those services?

Also, by my maths a 5+2 would have something like 330 seats (less than a pair of 220's and less than their current HST's). Therefore it could be possible that XC could have less capacity on some services.