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HST v Voyager (Cross Country)

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Skipness

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Today I was on the 10:30 from Derby to Plymouth, formed of an HST. When I made the same journey a month ago it was a Voyager (substitute I believe for a failed unit) which set me thinking about the relative merits of the two. In spite of their age, I personally prefer the HST experience, quieter than a Voyager for example.
I travelled onwards from Plymouth in a Great Western HST and was able to compare the seat quality and ambience of their HST to Cross Country.
 
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Bletchleyite

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To be fair neither are the original seats - you could refit a Voyager with either type.

I do see your point about the rest of the experience, though - the HST just feels more spacious even if the manual doors are clunky, the aircon a bit less than reliable and the ride sometimes leaving something to be desired.
 

Class 170101

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XC HSTs have a better ambience than the GW HSTs due to the softer lighting, better seats and less crammed in, in my personal experience.

This train is booked to be a HST Monday to Friday.
 

RichmondCommu

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Whilst there is no doubt that the HST offers a lot more capacity over a single Voyager the very fact that I don't travel without a seat reservation means that capacity is irrelevant.

I prefer Voyagers for the reasons that they are quicker, have better safety features and the external doors on a HST are a nuisance. Depending on the unit and where you sit the vibrations can be a bit annoying but in all absolute honesty I very seldom notice it.

For all the abuse that the Voyagers get on here they are very quick and very reliable. Yes they need a refresh but that is not the fault of the train!
 

yorkie

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XC HSTs ride very well, and are much better in terms of ambience, ride quality, etc than Voyagers.

I prefer Voyagers for the reasons that they are quicker...
Journey times are no different. There are some very minor differentials (mostly due to the doors) but overall journey times are largely the same and constrained by linespeed and pathing constraints.
have better safety features
Being on almost any National Rail train, including an XC HST, is one of the safest places you can be. It is more dangerous to cross a road!
and the external doors on a HST are a nuisance.
Not really.
Depending on the unit and where you sit the vibrations can be a bit annoying but in all absolute honesty I very seldom notice it.
The vibrations are very noticeable!
For all the abuse that the Voyagers get on here they are very quick and very reliable. Yes they need a refresh but that is not the fault of the train!
They offer a very uncomfortable experience in my opinion and I try to avoid them.
 

RichmondCommu

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XC HSTs ride very well, and are much better in terms of ambience, ride quality, etc than Voyagers.


Journey times are no different. There are some very minor differentials (mostly due to the doors) but overall journey times are largely the same and constrained by linespeed and pathing constraints.

Being on almost any National Rail train, including an XC HST, is one of the safest places you can be. It is more dangerous to cross a road!

I would agree that in recent years the safety record on our railways is very good but in the same way that a mk3 coach is safer than a mk1 coach the Voyager will have better safety features than the mk3.

If you look at the number of stops on a typical Cross Country service and how quickly a Voyager accelerates it's very hard to see how a HST could stick to a Voyager timetable. Surely if a Voyager is running behind time its acceleration will help it make up time thanksto its distributed traction.

Regarding the doors on a HST I've always found it much easier to press a button on a Voyager rather than pull down the drop light and faff about with the door handle. Let alone the difficulties that the occasional traveler might face.
 
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yorkie

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The fact that Voyagers are overpowered (and any slight decrease in journey time is barely noticeable) is a dis-benefit, not a benefit. They are less fuel efficient. It's also not so easy to maintain a train with loads of smaller engines.

Is your car similarly overpowered, for no actual journey time reduction? ;)
 

RichmondCommu

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The fact that Voyagers are overpowered (and any slight decrease in journey time is barely noticeable) is a dis-benefit, not a benefit. They are less fuel efficient. It's also not so easy to maintain a train with loads of smaller engines.

Is your car similarly overpowered, for no actual journey time reduction? ;)
And yet with its distributed traction a Voyager would surely always get you home even if one of the engines failed and you might even keep time. However if you are on a HST and you lose a power car you are going to start losing time hand over fist.

Yes the Voyager has lots of smaller engines but you would have to assume that it would be easier to repair an engine under a coach rather than possibly having to lift a power unit out of a HST. You could perhaps repair a very accessible Voyager engine over night but could you do the same with a HST power car?

I've no doubt that the Voyagers may well be less fuel efficient but as a traveler that's not my problem!

In answer to your question yes I will admit that our family car is vastly over powered for the UK's motorway network but it will easily carry five people and luggage and I have been known to speed when running late! Yes I know I shouldn't and the railways don't have that option but there you go :)
 
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crehld

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Yes the Voyager has lots of smaller engines but you would have to assume that it would be easier to repair an engine under a coach rather than possibly having to lift a power unit out of a HST. You could perhaps repair a very accessible Voyager engine over night but could you do the same with a HST power car?

Couldn't you just switch the faulty HST power car for a spare one while you get the faulty one fixed?
 

455driver

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And yet with its distributed traction a Voyager would surely always get you home even if one of the engines failed and you might even keep time. However if you are on a HST and you lose a power car you are going to start losing time hand over fist.

Yes the Voyager has lots of smaller engines but you would have to assume that it would be easier to repair an engine under a coach rather than possibly having to lift a power unit out of a HST. You could perhaps repair a very accessible Voyager engine over night but could you do the same with a HST power car?

I've no doubt that the Voyagers may well be less fuel efficient but as a traveler that's not my problem!

In answer to your question yes I will admit that our family car is vastly over powered for the UK's motorway network but it will easily carry five people and luggage and I have been known to speed when running late! Yes I know I shouldn't and the railways don't have that option but there you go :)

The only trains that have failed to get me where I wanted to go were Voyagers, once going to work and it got splashed at Dawlish and the other time when I was going home and it failed to get up Dainton due to having 3 engines out and we had to go bang road back to Newton Abbot and get on the FGW HST which was waiting for us!

Voyagers are not easy to work on when servicing them but they are quite well setup for component exchanges, on a HST you just open the roof hatches to get to the important bits, plus you can stand up when working on a HST unlike a voyager.
 
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yorkie

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And yet with its distributed traction a Voyager would surely always get you home even if one of the engines failed and you might even keep time. However if you are on a HST and you lose a power car you are going to start losing time hand over fist.
I've much more frequently been on Voyagers & Adelantes with engines out of use than HSTs!
Yes the Voyager has lots of smaller engines but you would have to assume that it would be easier to repair an engine under a coach rather than possibly having to lift a power unit out of a HST. You could perhaps repair a very accessible Voyager engine over night but could you do the same with a HST power car?
No, the underfloor engines are harder to maintain.
I've no doubt that the Voyagers may well be less fuel efficient but as a traveller that's not my problem!
It's one of many aspects of the modern railway that have pushed fares up (as well as making journeys less enjoyable). It is our problem.
 

The Ham

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Comparing HST's and Voyagers is a little unfair as the HST's are used less frequently, meaning that they are less dirty have more time for maintance and most people are comparing a full train (some with people standing) with trains which are generally less lightly loaded. Just having all the overhead racks full or empty can make a difference to how cramped the train feels.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Voyagers have an advantage over HSTs as on some routes (mentioned in another thread), if one HST power car has failed then the service has to be cancelled, whereas a Voyager if one engine plays up or fails the driver can shut that engine down and continue on the remaining engines
 

yorkie

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But how often do those events happen?

I've never been hauled by a single power car to my knowledge, despite making hundreds of journeys!
 

Envoy

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Voyagers have an advantage over HSTs as on some routes (mentioned in another thread), if one HST power car has failed then the service has to be cancelled, whereas a Voyager if one engine plays up or fails the driver can shut that engine down and continue on the remaining engines

I once did a journey from Paddington to Cardiff with one of the HST locomotives not working. Acceleration was slow. It reached Cardiff 30 minutes late.
 

sprinterguy

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I appreciate the improved reliability and faster journey times that the Voyagers have brought to the Crosscountry network, but where the option is there I will choose an HST every time, for the more comfortable seating, smoother ride and reduced chance of overcrowding. The 16:03 off Birmingham on a weekday is often popular with XC staff heading towards the East Midlands and North for this reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whilst there is no doubt that the HST offers a lot more capacity over a single Voyager the very fact that I don't travel without a seat reservation means that capacity is irrelevant.
Even with a seat reservation (and I generally don't have one, so capacity is important to me), I find that sitting shoulder to shoulder to leg of the person stood adjacent in the aisle on an overcrowded train rather mars the travelling experience. Plus, I have travelled on Crosscountry services so busy that it was simply not possible to get anywhere near my reserved seat, or for that matter anywhere beyond the vestibule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's one of many aspects of the modern railway that have pushed fares up (as well as making journeys less enjoyable). It is our problem.
I personally don't think that fuel usage will have had any bearing on the increase in price of rail tickets. The prices would have risen by the same percentage year on year regardless of what traction is used on the service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And yet with its distributed traction a Voyager would surely always get you home even if one of the engines failed and you might even keep time.
Indeed; it's not an irregular occurrence for a Voyager to be running on 3 out 5 engines and still keep time, although generally Bombardier will want to make sure that that unit ends up at Central Rivers at the next convenient opportunity (set swap at New Street or end of day usually).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you look at the number of stops on a typical Cross Country service and how quickly a Voyager accelerates it's very hard to see how a HST could stick to a Voyager timetable. Surely if a Voyager is running behind time its acceleration will help it make up time thanksto its distributed traction.
The HSTs are used on the services on the North East - South West axis that make more frequent stops and the timings, depending on which service you look at, are very close or identical.

However, Virgin ran its' HSTs in 2+5 formation in their final year of operation in order to keep to Voyager timings, so this might have something to do with the long layovers that are afforded to these services at the likes of Birmingham, Sheffield and York.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Voyagers have an advantage over HSTs as on some routes (mentioned in another thread), if one HST power car has failed then the service has to be cancelled
That's in a limited number of cases such as the Highland Main line and, possibly, the Devon banks (at one time I believe that HSTs on a single power car had to be assisted over the banks at Rattery and Dainton, I don't know whether this regulation still holds). In general an HST on a single power car will be permitted to struggle on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Comparing HST's and Voyagers is a little unfair as the HST's are used less frequently, meaning that they are less dirty have more time for maintance and most people are comparing a full train (some with people standing) with trains which are generally less lightly loaded.
Crosscountry's HSTs are diagrammed on those services that see the highest peak loadings at some point in their journey, so that only serves to highlight that the Voyagers are far too short and unsuited to a seemingly ever-growing passenger demand.
 

najaB

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But how often do those events happen?

I've never been hauled by a single power car to my knowledge, despite making hundreds of journeys!
It's happened to me twice that I know of (both times with GR). I've no way of knowing how many Voyager journeys have involved sets with disabled engines.
 

The Planner

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The HSTs are used on the services on the North East - South West axis that make more frequent stops and the timings, depending on which service you look at, are very close or identical.

However, Virgin ran its' HSTs in 2+5 formation in their final year of operation in order to keep to Voyager timings, so this might have something to do with the long layovers that are afforded to these services at the likes of Birmingham, Sheffield and York.

HST and Voyager times vary by quite a bit over the length of the journey and a HST will only keep to a Voyager schedule by using up engineering allowance. The long layovers are partly resilliance, partly to do with XC not accepting to sit outside stations due to pubic perception.
 

PHILIPE

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A GWR West of England HST yesterday did not make it's Totnes stop. This,I assume was that it was running on one engine only and to enable it to get a run up Rattery Bank.
 

The Ham

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Crosscountry's HSTs are diagrammed on those services that see the highest peak loadings at some point in their journey, so that only serves to highlight that the Voyagers are far too short and unsuited to a seemingly ever-growing passenger demand.

That is not in doubt, nor does my post mean that XC doesn't need more trains.

The point was that comparing a Voyager with lots of people on it (i.e. too many for the size of train) will always feel a worse train than a few more people on a HST (where there is likely to still be spare seats and space in the luggage racks).

If you only traveled on 60% loaded Voyagers or 60% loaded HST's your perception of the trains would be probably result in more comparable view of the two train types than if you travel on 110% loaded Voyagers and 60% loaded HST's where you are going to view the Voyagers as worse.

This is compounded by the Voyagers seeing more usage than the HST's so will get dirtier quicker (in terms of weeks passing) than the HST's.

Even just the fact that the HST's don't have retention tanks means that their loos are less likely to be out of order (and even if they did the passenger loadings are lighter so they wouldn't be as intensively used, also resulting in the tanks filling up more slowly).
 

Clip

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HST, every time. End of discussion.

This really. Mind you I very rarely go on a Voyager and normally its between Newcastle and Darlo so what do I know? Well apart from the fact a 125 is much much better than anything. Even the D train.
 

Dave1987

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I have traveled on Voyagers a few times. They are really quick but that's all I think that's good about them. Probably the worst bit of engineering design of the naughties.
 
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class26

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I have traveled on Voyagers a few times. They are really quick but that's all I think that's good about them. Probably the worst bit of engineering design of the naughties.

The seats are surely the worst seats ever designed. If they were replaced by decent seats that would be a start
 

Bletchleyite

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Yeah, but nobody's yet mentioned how we should replace the Voyagers with 442s hauled by a 67 :lol:

Voyagers (220s, not 221s) nearly were Voyager style coaches hauled by a single-ended 67. I wonder how that would have affected peoples' take on them.
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The seats are surely the worst seats ever designed. If they were replaced by decent seats that would be a start

Such a matter of personal preference. The old East Coast seating is the worst, but fortunately they are now replacing it with two-piece cushions which should solve the problem. I think Pendolino/Voyager seating is OK. I really like, unlike many people, fGW HST seating (also found in Scottish and EMT 158s).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have traveled on Voyagers a few times. They are really quick but that's all I think that's good about them. Probably the worst bit of engineering design of the naughties.

I don't think the engineering design is really a problem - they work and they are reasonably reliable. The problem is the industrial design, but for anyone who's ever travelled in the hybrid coach it is clear you can make them better simply by making changes to the seating (design, window alignment and pitch).

Much as I'd have avoided using First West Coast as far as possible, I really wanted to see what their seat replacement plan entailed.
 
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455driver

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Comparing HST's and Voyagers is a little unfair as the HST's are used less frequently, meaning that they are less dirty have more time for maintance and most people are comparing a full train (some with people standing) with trains which are generally less lightly loaded. Just having all the overhead racks full or empty can make a difference to how cramped the train feels.

If the train is less lightly loaded then it is more heavily loaded so it is therefore a valid comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yeah, but nobody's yet mentioned how we should replace the Voyagers with 442s hauled by a 67 :lol:

67s are old hat, the 68s are the answer to everyhing now.;)
 
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