HST v Voyager (Cross Country)

[Bletchleyite]

They were going to be used for an additional New St-Paddington service, so would not have had an effect on other bits of XC. If anything they would have relieved fGW a bit. Indeed, is fGW not where they ended up?
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Are the loading levels likely to be as high as XC? If so, then they should consider strengthening them.

Most services they presently operate are run using a single 3-car Turbostar, so they will give a significant increase in capacity. A decrease from a 6-car, though I don't know how many such ScotRail services presently use 6 cars of 170 - I'm not sure many at all except Edinburgh-Glasgow, which will get EMUs.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, on XC there could have been more capacity, however on the network as a whole there could be less capacity, as where are all the class 43's and Mark 3 coaches that XC would need to run those services?

Also, by my maths a 5+2 would have something like 330 seats (less than a pair of 220's and less than their current HST's). Therefore it could be possible that XC could have less capacity on some services.

Fair point. In terms of capacity, a doubled up voyager is indeed very impressive. As far as comfort goes, to my mind the HST would still pip it to the post. But we should remember that the Voyager is due an internal refurb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair point. In terms of capacity, a doubled up voyager is indeed very impressive. As far as comfort goes, to my mind the HST would still pip it to the post. But we should remember that the Voyager is due an internal refurb.

The fact that the interiors are generally in a good condition (the faults they have are ones that were there from day one, largely, like bog stink and a faulty reservations system) is testament to their high build quality. Many people thought they would shake themselves to bits, they largely haven't.

 

[yorksrob]

The fact that the interiors are generally in a good condition (the faults they have are ones that were there from day one, largely, like bog stink and a faulty reservations system) is testament to their high build quality. Many people thought they would shake themselves to bits, they largely haven't.

Fair point, although I didn't rate them in comparison to the Mk2's when they first came out. That said, until they get better seats, it's still the HST for me.

 

[47271]

Very few Scotrail expresses outside the E&G get six, and I don't know of any regular weekday arrangements on the Aberdeen or Inverness routes from the central belt. If it happens they're mainly on a Sunday which I take to be repositioning as much as anything else.

170+158 or 158+158 is far more common. There's also famously a mega seven car formation on a peak service on the Aberdeen-Inverness route.

Back on topic, the choice of stock is irrelevent to me, I'd sooner go on my hands and knees than choose a long journey on XC. Maybe their HSTs are great, I've never been on one, but I could reel off a long list of reasons why I'd sooner avoid this operator based on direct experience of their Voyagers.

The main ones are an overlapping combination of ridiculous ticket prices, overcrowding and failed seat reservations. Once you've got over those first impressions, toilet pong filling the cabin and horrible engine revving under the seat - the vibration gives me the same nausea I get in small propeller planes like Britten-Norman Islanders - are a masochist's bonus.

I don't get this at all in the similarly engined 185s and I like Pendolinos. Sorry Voyager fans, but your favourite trains don't agree with me at all.

 

[Skipness]

Single line working this afternoon for Voyagers at Dawlish

 

[Retorus]

That's an, uh, interesting picture.

 

[47271]

Ho ho, I don't believe that was taken today. Zoom in on the point behind the bottom of the footbridge steps and you'll see Santa walking by.

 

[sprinterguy]

When does the XC franchise expire so we can see what capacity enhancements are planned? Are there any plans for XC to lease any more redundant HST's?

The direct award is currently being negotiated to take the Crosscountry franchise under Arriva up to October 2019.

I don't personally expect to see much in the way of additional rolling stock for the inter-city services during this period.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

The direct award is currently being negotiated to take the Crosscountry franchise under Arriva up to October 2019.

I don't personally expect to see much in the way of additional rolling stock for the inter-city services during this period.

Yeah I doubt they'll be much capacity enhancement in the period - unless they do decide to procure some off lease HST sets. Of course the other thing to bear in mind is whether XC could get some of the released Scotrail 170s to increase capacity along the Cardiff - Nottingham, Bham - Leicester and Stansted Airport corridors. That would at least solve some of the problems sometimes encountered along those routes.

Only other thing, which again would be very doubtful, is some sort of refresh for the Voyagers. Although I'd expect it'd be post 2019 before there's a major refurbishment of them (I hope I'm wrong). Hopefully in the next franchise there can be a real commitment to resolving some of the overcrowding issues surrounding the franchise, and future proofing the network for the future.

Will be taking my first XC HST trip in a couple of weeks time so will be able to see how they compare to the Voyagers - very favourably I expect considering the superiority of the likes of the Chiltern Mk3s over other intercity stock.

 

[The Ham]

The direct award is currently being negotiated to take the Crosscountry franchise under Arriva up to October 2019.

I don't personally expect to see much in the way of additional rolling stock for the inter-city services during this period.

There are a few possibilities:
- more usage of the existing XC HST's once the Voyagers come off lease/change lease
- more HST's once these become available (possibly so that, along with XC's existing HST's, Voyagers don't need to go past Dawlish and the resulting units can be used to strengthen other XC services).

Yes, a lot of direct awards resulted in not a lot of change to rolling stock, however you only need to look at GW to see that big changes are possible.

 

[Skipness]

Ho ho, I don't believe that was taken today. Zoom in on the point behind the bottom of the footbridge steps and you'll see Santa walking by.

I can assure you it was taken 13:00 today from a eastbound GWR HST after we had been held at signals for 15 mins to allow two XC Voyagers to pass "wrong line". It was high tide and the spray was very photogenic.

 

[47271]

I can assure you it was taken 13:00 today from a eastbound GWR HST after we had been held at signals for 15 mins to allow two XC Voyagers to pass "wrong line". It was high tide and the spray was very photogenic.

Only kidding, it's a good pic. I think 'Father Christmas' is the red and white of a lifebuoy morphed by the spray and water on the outside of the glass...

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes, a lot of direct awards resulted in not a lot of change to rolling stock, however you only need to look at GW to see that big changes are possible.

The Great Western electrification project and IEP procurement process were both scheduled and in motion long before the Great Western franchise direct award was agreed, or even developed. I really wouldn't expect to see anything ambitious from the XC direct award in terms of rolling stock: With the delays to the GWML electrification project, you're virtually into the next Crosscountry franchise before any spare HSTs, from the ECML or GWML, become available even if the next franchisee wanted them.
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Yeah I doubt they'll be much capacity enhancement in the period - unless they do decide to procure some off lease HST sets. Of course the other thing to bear in mind is whether XC could get some of the released Scotrail 170s to increase capacity along the Cardiff - Nottingham, Bham - Leicester and Stansted Airport corridors. That would at least solve some of the problems sometimes encountered along those routes.

Yeah, extra 170s from Scotrail for regional services would seem more likely than anything additional for the long-distance services.
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I can assure you it was taken 13:00 today from a eastbound GWR HST after we had been held at signals for 15 mins to allow two XC Voyagers to pass "wrong line". It was high tide and the spray was very photogenic.

There must have been some serious tidal conditions for the train to end up on its' roof like that!

 

[RobShipway]

Surely, once the Midland Mainline is electrified by 2019 there will be class 222's that are going to be surplus when any new Electric trains are doing the services to Kettering and Corby which could be transferred over to XC?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Surely, once the Midland Mainline is electrified by 2019 there will be class 222's that are going to be surplus when any new Electric trains are doing the services to Kettering and Corby which could be transferred over to XC?

It is very unlikely that the MML will be electrified in that time.

 

[sprinterguy]

Surely, once the Midland Mainline is electrified by 2019 there will be class 222's that are going to be surplus when any new Electric trains are doing the services to Kettering and Corby which could be transferred over to XC?

The most recent updated schedule won't see Midland Mainline electrification completed until, IIRC, the end of 2023, and electrification to Corby on its' own won't release very many 222s.

 

[mark-h]

Would pouring a bottle of Dettol into a Voyager toilet make the smell any better?

 

[The Ham]

The Great Western electrification project and IEP procurement process were both scheduled and in motion long before the Great Western franchise direct award was agreed, or even developed. I really wouldn't expect to see anything ambitious from the XC direct award in terms of rolling stock: With the delays to the GWML electrification project, you're virtually into the next Crosscountry franchise before any spare HSTs, from the ECML or GWML, become available even if the next franchisee wanted them.

GW could have opted to do the minimum, I.e. cascade 16x's and then let a lot of the better units go elsewhere and keep the more basic units. Likewise it wasn't that long ago that 319's were being suggested for the slows on the GWML. There are also more services being put in place which they didn't have to do, like 3tph on the North Downs Line.

Even if XC don't get any more HST's until near the end of the extension (and even one or two more would make a noticeable difference), then just using their HST's more will help.

For instance run one which frees up a 220 which runs paired up over the core (end to end of say 6 hours with a 2 hour doubling over the core), then use those two 220's to double up over the core which is 1tph (all day) as well as the services which is run by a HST (possible only 2 trains per day in each direction).

Do that with 2 HST's and 2tph are run over the core with doubled up units.

Once you start getting to 4 HST's running each day (probably 5 or 6 total) and some services beyond the core could start to be extended, that or the core is over a longer distance.
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Sorry Voyager fans, but your favourite trains don't agree with me at all.

Just as a point of clarification, with my posts defending the Voyagers. There are faults with them:
- tilt profile means there is less internal space
- underfloor engines which can upset some
- temperamental electronic seat reservation system
- the smell
- too few and too short for the services they run
- they could do with a deep clean (at least)
- parts of the train (around the bike racks) feel quite stark

However, I do feel that a lot of the impressions of people who use them are coloured by the fact that they are often using them on very busy services. Also as they are used by XC a lot more than their HST's then people are more likely to have bad experiences with them. As bad experiences are more easy to recall they tend to be the go to stories when asked about them.

I for instance could argue that the 444's are a bad unit if I were to only have experience of them when the preceding train (8 coach 450) is cancelled during the morning peak and the next train is a single 444. Does that make them a bad unit, no rather it means that they have too many people on them and so my experience of them is skewed by circumstances. (OK Voyagers are often overloaded even when everything is working well, but that is more to do with the lack of units).

If they were able to be used in such a way which means that they are not overloaded, have more time to have their tanks emptied and have a full refresh then I think that there would be less animosity towards them.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wouldn't be sure that fuel in use currently was bought at the low price.

Do TOCs not hedge their fuel purchases many months ahead?

That's a very good point and indeed yes they do. However that should still mean that the TOC's fuel costs will start to reduce in the next few months.
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This irks me; why do apparently intelligent people find the concept of slam doors such a challenge?

It bothers me particularly in light of two things; firstly the consideration that these people presumably boarded the train through the doorways, and would have seen the doors, rather large and brightly coloured as they are, swung wide open to allow them to get on; and secondly the fact that stuck to the inside of the door is a notice, carrying both text and pictograms, which begins "TO OPEN DOOR..."

Slam doors - a little unusual nowadays, perhaps. A 'nuisance'? No, not really!

One of main reasons that I choose to travel by train is convenience. And in all honesty I don't think anyone could argue that its more convenient to faff about with a "slam door" door handle than it is to press a button. Opening a door on a Cross Country HST requires more time and effort on my part than pressing a button on a Voyager. In short I can't be bothered.
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Lets list two reasons why travellers (note the spelling!) would hate voyagers. You don't need to be an enthusiast to understand these ones.

1. Overcrowding. They are simply far too small, and they don't even use the space efficiently. You can fit more people in a 3 car 159 than you can in a 4 car voyager. People resent having to stand from New Street to Reading. This has happened to me more than once, despite having reserved seats. When I got on at New Street, the train was packed, and I couldn't make it to my seat until Oxford, whereupon I found it occupied. The only solution to this is longer trains. The other issue with overcrowding is that they are narrow inside because of the tilt profile. This really exacerbates the feeling of being crammed in.


b) Sweat. Commuters in the South East know this one as well as it is a common problem on commuter trains and on the tube. Overcrowded spaces tend to get warm. Even where there is air conditioning.

Two points worth making here;

I commute into London Monday to Friday pretty much every week. Every morning I have to stand from Richmond into Waterloo. Now I grant you that isn't anywhere near as far as Birmingham to Reading however the key thing here is that although I don't like having to stand that is not the fault of the train or its designer

Secondly, I've been commuting into London for getting on 28 years and yet I can honestly say that body odour from other travelers has never been a problem. Rudeness yes, sweaty bodies no, thanks to a decent standard of personal hygiene and of course deodorant.

 

[The Ham]

Secondly, I've been commuting into London for getting on 28 years and yet I can honestly say that body odour from other travelers has never been a problem. Rudeness yes, sweaty bodies no, thanks to a decent standard of personal hygiene and of course deodorant.

That may have something to do with Richmond having a better class of train traveller than [insert name of town you don't like] !

 

[66Yorks]

HST's over Voyagers anytime for me.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Two points worth making here;

I commute into London Monday to Friday pretty much every week. Every morning I have to stand from Richmond into Waterloo. Now I grant you that isn't anywhere near as far as Birmingham to Reading however the key thing here is that although I don't like having to stand that is not the fault of the train or its designer

It may not be the fault of the train, however these were ordered as long distance units. 4 or 5 cars just isn't long enough to replace a 7+2 HST or a 47 with a Rake of Mk2s, even if the service was doubled (although this never really happened) as was proven from day 1 with the Voyagers. It's a shame, because the basic unit is good. They are quick and reliable.

DfT and VT specified the length and seating capacity, knowing what they would be used for.

MML at least with the 222s got them to replace turbostars (which were also woefully inadequate) and to supplement their HST fleet. Meaning an overall increase in capacity.

 

[185143]

Would pouring a bottle of Dettol into a Voyager toilet make the smell any better?

try it and report back!

 

[Bletchleyite]

- tilt profile means there is less internal space
- underfloor engines which can upset some
- temperamental electronic seat reservation system
- the smell
- too few and too short for the services they run
- they could do with a deep clean (at least)
- parts of the train (around the bike racks) feel quite stark

The vast majority of these could be solved with a decent refurb (and they should just rip out the reservation system and go back to cards if it evidently can't be fixed). People don't seem to hate Meridians, which are basically the same unit with a different interior.

 

[RepTCTC]

I for instance could argue that the 444's are a bad unit if I were to only have experience of them when the preceding train (8 coach 450) is cancelled during the morning peak and the next train is a single 444. Does that make them a bad unit, no rather it means that they have too many people on them and so my experience of them is skewed by circumstances. (OK Voyagers are often overloaded even when everything is working well, but that is more to do with the lack of units).

This is indeed true, and it doesn't require the cancellation of the previous service to make my heart sink when I see a single 444 approaching Guildford from the south. They're god-awful things to stand in, and the amount of charitable pleasure derived from seeing my fellow human beings enjoying the seating can make up for the fact that I'd much rather have seen 2x450 show up.

As for the Voyagers, you're quite right on the numbers, at least when it comes to XC. A few more 4 car 220s, and 221s lengthed to 6* car units would change a fair few opinions, I'm sure.

The bogs still whiff something rotten on occasion though.


* Assuming a 4+6 combo would fit the platforms in question.

 

[Class 170101]

* Assuming a 4+6 combo would fit the platforms in question.

I would say so as I think I have seen a 5+5 combo.

 

[Master29]

That may have something to do with Richmond having a better class of train traveller than Frimley, Camberley, Woking Wimbledon, Chertsey and Oh yes, not to keep the prejudiced too unbiased. Richmond.