Train packed - people won't move to get on and off

[matt_world2004]

They are not allowed to. There was a massive kerfuffle with DafT when FGW owned some HST stock a while ago

If they are not allowed to how come they do exactly that then between London Paddington and Hayes and Harlington leasing the carriages of a non franchised rail operator to honour their first great western link franchise commitments.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If you were as clumsy as I am while walking in the street, you would understand.

It was the use of the word "barge" which suggests in my mind that it was a deliberate act and "strong words" afterwards. Now on the odd occasion that like you I bump into someone, even in London I have never exchanged "strong words" with anyone over such an incident. There just really isn't any need for any of that kind of behavior unless you are looking for trouble.

 

[miami]

It was the use of the word "barge" which suggests in my mind that it was a deliberate act and "strong words" afterwards. Now on the odd occasion that like you I bump into someone, even in London I have never exchanged "strong words" with anyone over such an incident. There just really isn't any need for any of that kind of behavior unless you are looking for trouble.

Quite, I've bumped into people accidentally before, and the words that are exchanges are ones of mutual apology. Nothing theatrical like "terribly sorry my good man" or "heartiest apologies for my errant misstep", more a normal "sorry".

From the sound of this thread that's quite rare. People deliberately barge people out of the way to make their lives easier, knock them over to avoid some discomfort, or if they come out of a shop and collide they make snap judgements and don't even mutter an apology.

Worse, they think these events are actually virtuous! Says a lot about society.

 

[Antman]

What is your problem with the Welsh or Millwall supporters ?
Any evidence to back up the statement that Millwall fans carry knifes ? Seems to imply it is normal behaviour

(No, I am not Welsh nor a Millwall supporter, but I now people who meet that criteria and they are HUMAN)

Indeed a ridiculous thing to say and if he'd said it about certain other minority groups the pc police would be on his case. Oh and I'm a Chelsea fan, far be it from me to defend Millwall fans but some perspective is needed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

For goodness sake stop being so melodramatic, it may have been slightly different if they had prevented him getting on the train but not off, some people suffer from claustrophobia and something like that could induce a panic attack

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If they are not allowed to how come they do exactly that then between London Paddington and Hayes and Harlington leasing the carriages of a non franchised rail operator to honour their first great western link franchise commitments.

Heathrow Connect is very complicated - the stock is owned by Heathrow Airport Limited and operated by Heathrow Express Operating Company Limited, but it's then operated under contract to First Greater Western Limited between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington, in order to make use of the train paths between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington which are assigned to the Great Western franchise. Heathrow Express Operating Company then has a track access agreement between Hayes & Harlington and the Heathrow Airport Tunnel portal to enable to Heathrow Connect service to connect with Heathrow Airport's infrastructure.

 

[matt_world2004]

Heathrow Connect is very complicated - the stock is owned by Heathrow Airport Limited and operated by Heathrow Express Operating Company Limited, but it's then operated under contract to First Greater Western Limited between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington, in order to make use of the train paths between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington which are assigned to the Great Western franchise. Heathrow Express Operating Company then has a track access agreement between Hayes & Harlington and the Heathrow Airport Tunnel portal to enable to Heathrow Connect service to connect with Heathrow Airport's infrastructure.

Exactly it is a franchised service between Paddington and Hayes and Harlington using rolling stock not specified in the franchise agreement

 

[fowler9]

Quite, I've bumped into people accidentally before, and the words that are exchanges are ones of mutual apology. Nothing theatrical like "terribly sorry my good man" or "heartiest apologies for my errant misstep", more a normal "sorry".

From the sound of this thread that's quite rare. People deliberately barge people out of the way to make their lives easier, knock them over to avoid some discomfort, or if they come out of a shop and collide they make snap judgements and don't even mutter an apology.

Worse, they think these events are actually virtuous! Says a lot about society.

Paul I think you are being very theatrical on this thread talking about people dying or being prosecuted because some ignorant people won't make the slightest effort to allow their fellow man to go about their business after being asked. Yes the OP could have got stabbed to death by an angry welsh rugby fan or said rugby fan could have gone tumbling to their death a couple of feet below but sometimes people have to be assertive or we'd all end up at the end of the line on every journey because of a few selfish gits.

 

[Jonny]

The issue for the OP is that if you hurt someone, even by accident, it could be an awkward situation in legal terms. The phrase "sticky wicket" springs to mind.

 

[pdeaves]

If these inconsiderate passengers refuse to allow somebody off a train then how about a personal alarm to wake them up?

In the past I've resorted to making as if I'm about to vomit. People move remarkably quickly!



[later...]

I see someone else uses that trick, too!

 

[fowler9]

The issue for the OP is that if you hurt someone, even by accident, it could be an awkward situation in legal terms. The phrase "sticky wicket" springs to mind.

It does but there is a difference between forcing you way through and some kind of chest to chest fisticuffs shoving. I'm sure if anyone died on the train questions would be asked about how crowded the train was.

 

[Antman]

The issue for the OP is that if you hurt someone, even by accident, it could be an awkward situation in legal terms. The phrase "sticky wicket" springs to mind.

Not really, quite honestly the phrase about mountains and molehills springs to mind

 

[AM9]

Not really, quite honestly the phrase about mountains and molehills springs to mind

This assault charge agrument is getting rather irrelevant. Even in post #8 it said:

"What if in your shoving they had fallen and then died? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson comes to mind."

Now there's a strawman distraction.

 

[AlanFry1]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

He did no wrong?

 

[fowler9]

He did no wrong?

He assaulted 2 people because they were in his way. It was like an Iron Man film I tell you!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This assault charge agrument is getting rather irrelevant. Even in post #8 it said:

"What if in your shoving they had fallen and then died? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson comes to mind."

Now there's a strawman distraction.

Exactly. We can't deal in what ifs. None of us would ever get out of bed. "YOU COULD DIE!!!!"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The second people dramatise their argument they loose. I deal with complaints. A chap I was speaking to the other day had no central heating for two days. He asked me if he had to rip his boiler off the wall or wait till one of his children died before it got fixed. I managed to stop myself telling him I survived 10 years at the start of my life with no central heating and that ripping the boiler off the wall may hasten his childrens deaths. It is just the way people are these days I guess.

 

[TUC]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

So what should he have done? Missed his stop? Calling this assault is a fantasy.

 

[Taunton]

never seen such a display of selfishness ever.

What? You mean a train company which pockets all the extra fare money from the passengers before they get on the platform, then fails to provide enough accommodation to handle them?

 

[plymothian]

Or you mean a TOC that is obliged to sell tickets whenever the passenger wants, to wherever they want to go at whatever time, and even if they're not sure when they want to go back.

FFS, people got on a train to go where they wanted to go, how would you like it if you turned up on spec and told, 'no full'?

Let's just go whole hog and say one seat = one ticket = one reservation (plus one bike = 3 seats; more luggage that normal = 2 seats etc) No standing; end of. And then watch how people moan that they can't every get a train because they're always sold out.

 

[Pinza-C55]

This was ATW train from Gloucester to Cardiff. Friday evening. RWC match in Cardiff that evening.

It was so packed people were standing all the way down the aisles. Of course, 90% of the people were getting off at Cardiff, so if you were stuck half way down the train it was a problem if you wanted to get off at Lydney, Chepstow, or Newport.

Guard did his best. Asked people to step off onto the platform so that people could get off. BUT it was so full they were stopping new passengers getting on, so, of course, no-one already on the train was going to step off and risk getting stuck. Complete shambles. There was a bit of a scuffle at one point because people were just point blank refusing to move.

Anyway, I was stuck in the middle of the train. Got to Severn Tunnel and thought I'd better try and make my way. Got to the door ready for newport. There was also an elderly lady who followed me. Few more people in the way. Platform packed at newport. Announcement please step off to allow people to exit train.

So I say excuse me, can you step off (to two oldish fellas) so I can get off. "Nope no way am I moving". So I explain that I can't get past them "Not my problem".

Ended up having to physically shove them both off the train so I could get off. Then shove them back again before they jumped back on because this elderly lady was trying to get off too. Never seen anything like it.

I know its problematic when trains are full like this but never seen such a display of selfishness ever.

Good for you. You make me proud to be British.

 

[miami]

Paul I think you are being very theatrical on this thread talking about people dying or being prosecuted because some ignorant people won't make the slightest effort to allow their fellow man to go about their business after being asked. Yes the OP could have got stabbed to death by an angry welsh rugby fan or said rugby fan could have gone tumbling to their death a couple of feet below but sometimes people have to be assertive or we'd all end up at the end of the line on every journey because of a few selfish gits.

I am being theatrical, and was taking a contary opinion to avoid the "rar rar yes it's terrible" state.

However the more I think about it the more concerned I am. I doubt very much I'd be able to physically remove two rugby fans from a train. If the OP hadn't been there. He obviously hadn't considered all the consequences, and perhaps he was exaggerating with "shoved them off the train", then "shoved them" again on the platform, I'm just taking it at face value.

What would a normal person do in this circumstance? I doubt my wife would shove anyone off the train, I'm sure the elderly lady wouldn't. How often do we hear about OAPs that are stranded on trains miles away because they couldn't get off?

Now if the OP had squeezed past them, that would be different, but he claims to have manhandled two people off the train. Yes, they didn't complain this time, yes they didn't decide that he was "disrespecting them", yes they didn't have their leg caught in a strap and fall out of a train backwards hitting their head on a platform. Yes it's likely that the blame would fall almost entirely on the train company if something bad had happened.

I've never felt the need to shove someone off a train, let alone two people, I doubt many people here have. I've never flattened a young girl while disembarking either. How many people here can genuinely say they have?

What we seem to have here is a group of people applauding the use of physical force to resolve a conflict that didn't need physical force to resolve (bb21, pdeaves and Springs Branch have told us how they cope in this situation). Fine, I will make no further comment.

 

[paulfoel]

Not only did he shove two people (and indeed why two people - were they far smaller then him?) off the train, he then continued shoving them while they were on the platform!

The two people who didn't move aren't entirely innocent, but I can see their side of the story too. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's got off a tube train to give others an easier access, only to be unable to get back on the train. They didn't get physical, and they didn't prevent the OP from leaving via another door of the train. I don't see any case there any more than having a crowd infront of you trying to exit oxford circus but being blocked would could as "false imprisonment".

Let me clarify because I think you're getting a bit excitable. Yes I did shove these two people because otherwise I'd have been stuck on the train and I'd do the same again.

They then started flapping and tried to pile back and prevent anyone else getting off so I put myself between them and shoved them back when they shoved.

The young girl again seemed to be flapping too. Regretable and I did feel bad about this but this was something again caused by someone flapping and not thinking of others. If some fat git like me is jumping down off a train its best not to be underneath. So in no way did I shove this girl she put herself in this permission by not thinking.

 

[PHILIPE]

You did the right thing under the circumstances so ignore those who want to accuse you of assault. You required to leave the train so you used common sense without any alternative.

 

[Wookiee]

Come on then Paul, what would YOU have done in the same situation? Stood there all meek and mild, waiting for them to move of their own accord, which could have been a few stops past where you needed to get off? :roll:

Bradders hates train travellers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you mean a TOC that is obliged to sell tickets whenever the passenger wants, to wherever they want to go at whatever time, and even if they're not sure when they want to go back.

Both. The vast majority of peaks are predictable, and the railway (I include in this the DfT as funding body) can and should do something about them.

 

[E_Reeves]

I've seen really bad. It was at Dawlish Warren for an Exeter to Paignton. There was only one Class 143, and there were so many people, some people actually couldn't get on. People on the inside were even pushing the door close buttons so no more people could get on. And the guard didn't even get out of the cab! Later on that day, there were about 10 people on 1 143 and a 150, so why don't they put 2 units together during rush hour??

 

[iantherev]

I've seen really bad. It was at Dawlish Warren for an Exeter to Paignton. There was only one Class 143, and there were so many people, some people actually couldn't get on. People on the inside were even pushing the door close buttons so no more people could get on. And the guard didn't even get out of the cab! Later on that day, there were about 10 people on 1 143 and a 150, so why don't they put 2 units together during rush hour??

Unit in multiple on the Exeter locals are normally on specific diagrams e.g the Torquay schools workings. Like many other places there aren't enough units to go around and the welcome extra Exeter/Newton Abbot - Paignton trains now tie up a 143 that was previously available for strengthening. GWR now have a 150 sent ecs from Bristol to provide extra capacity on the 15.03 to Paignton and 16.11 return so it's difficult to see what more can be done with current resources.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I recall on this - TPE is the only train "service" (the latter is used loosely) on which, as I have been alighting, people have seen fit to push past to board under my arm when I'd barely removed my finger from the "door open" button. This has never even happened on the most overcrowded Tube - Londoners at least seem to know how to respect personal space even in the most crowded of situations.

Shows just how bad things have got.

 

[Economist]

I've never understood why people pile around the doors waiting to get on (despite there being no seats), I usually try and end up being the last on, standing near the doors.

1. I like to keep away from the platform edge lest I fall (or be pushed) onto the track.

2. Getting on first usually means either going down the aisle and being the last off or being surrounded by people. I like my little spot by the doors where I can lean on the partition.

3. Given I'm usually on BREL 465s, which are roasting hot all year, it's nice to get a bit of fresh air when the doors open.

If anyone needs to get off, I disembark and get back on once they are off.

 

[47271]

One thing I recall on this - TPE is the only train "service" (the latter is used loosely) on which, as I have been alighting, people have seen fit to push past to board under my arm when I'd barely removed my finger from the "door open" button. This has never even happened on the most overcrowded Tube - Londoners at least seem to know how to respect personal space even in the most crowded of situations.

Shows just how bad things have got.

Oh yes, TPE services passing through Manchester in the peaks are cracking for this type of behaviour. I've had someone trying to physically prevent me from getting off they were in such a rush to board at Oxford Road one morning. I don't know how they thought that was going to work.

 

[Kite159]

Oh yes, TPE services passing through Manchester in the peaks are cracking for this type of behaviour. I've had someone trying to physically prevent me from getting off they were in such a rush to board at Oxford Road one morning. I don't know how they thought that was going to work.

Agreed there, some passengers can't get it into their heads that it might be easier to allow others to leave the train before they can board.

As for the South West, I bet the guards prefer a 150 over a 143, at least they don't have to try and fight through the crowd to open/close the doors

 

[PHILIPE]

I was on a Cardiff Valley train once on a Rugby day when the driver had to leave to go to the SPT at the end of the platform due to the red signal. He had to return to his cab by climbing back in through the window of a Pacer and which he had left open.