Train packed - people won't move to get on and off

[paulfoel]

This was ATW train from Gloucester to Cardiff. Friday evening. RWC match in Cardiff that evening.

It was so packed people were standing all the way down the aisles. Of course, 90% of the people were getting off at Cardiff, so if you were stuck half way down the train it was a problem if you wanted to get off at Lydney, Chepstow, or Newport.

Guard did his best. Asked people to step off onto the platform so that people could get off. BUT it was so full they were stopping new passengers getting on, so, of course, no-one already on the train was going to step off and risk getting stuck. Complete shambles. There was a bit of a scuffle at one point because people were just point blank refusing to move.

Anyway, I was stuck in the middle of the train. Got to Severn Tunnel and thought I'd better try and make my way. Got to the door ready for newport. There was also an elderly lady who followed me. Few more people in the way. Platform packed at newport. Announcement please step off to allow people to exit train.

So I say excuse me, can you step off (to two oldish fellas) so I can get off. "Nope no way am I moving". So I explain that I can't get past them "Not my problem".

Ended up having to physically shove them both off the train so I could get off. Then shove them back again before they jumped back on because this elderly lady was trying to get off too. Never seen anything like it.

I know its problematic when trains are full like this but never seen such a display of selfishness ever.

 

[ComUtoR]

(...) but never seen such a display of selfishness ever.

I see it almost every day

 

[miami]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

 

[duncanp]

This can be a problem on the London Underground some times as well.

Regular commuters will know which side of the train the doors open at the station where they want to get off, but visitors will not and are often stuck right in the middle of the carriage when the train arrives at their destination.

I too have had to shove people out of the way when they are standing in the way of the doors and will not move, despite me asking them several times.

 

[DarloRich]

This was ATW train from Gloucester to Cardiff. Friday evening. RWC match in Cardiff that evening.

It was so packed people were standing all the way down the aisles. Of course, 90% of the people were getting off at Cardiff, so if you were stuck half way down the train it was a problem if you wanted to get off at Lydney, Chepstow, or Newport.

Guard did his best. Asked people to step off onto the platform so that people could get off. BUT it was so full they were stopping new passengers getting on, so, of course, no-one already on the train was going to step off and risk getting stuck. Complete shambles. There was a bit of a scuffle at one point because people were just point blank refusing to move.

Anyway, I was stuck in the middle of the train. Got to Severn Tunnel and thought I'd better try and make my way. Got to the door ready for newport. There was also an elderly lady who followed me. Few more people in the way. Platform packed at newport. Announcement please step off to allow people to exit train.

So I say excuse me, can you step off (to two oldish fellas) so I can get off. "Nope no way am I moving". So I explain that I can't get past them "Not my problem".

Ended up having to physically shove them both off the train so I could get off. Then shove them back again before they jumped back on because this elderly lady was trying to get off too. Never seen anything like it.

I know its problematic when trains are full like this but never seen such a display of selfishness ever.

Seen it at Leeds on an evening:

• Crush loaded 142 after earlier service cancellation
• No one prepared to move off the train to allow guard on
• More people cramming on like something from Indian Railways- i fought my way off as it was clear it was going nowhere soon
• Guard asking repeatedly for people to move as they need access to back cab and controls.
• No one moves.
• Neither does train as guard cant get to controls.
• People get angry.
• Start twisting on.
• Someone pushes someone off.
• Arguments/unpleasantness/handbags
• BTP called.
• People escorted away.
• Train leaves 30+ minsues late

 

[WCMLaddict]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

If you think that should be treated as an assault, these two should have been investigated in relation to false imprisonment...

 

[paulfoel]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

Load of rubbish - I didn't assault them. I just moved to where I wanted to go and then put myself in the way to assist another passenger to get off.

What do you suggest I should have done them? Asked them pretty please or say OK then, apologise for asking, and gone to Cardiff?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seen it at Leeds on an evening:

• Crush loaded 142 after earlier service cancellation
• No one prepared to move off the train to allow guard on
• More people cramming on like something from Indian Railways- i fought my way off as it was clear it was going nowhere soon
• Guard asking repeatedly for people to move as they need access to back cab and controls.
• No one moves.
• Neither does train as guard cant get to controls.
• People get angry.
• Start twisting on.
• Someone pushes someone off.
• Arguments/unpleasantness/handbags
• BTP called.
• People escorted away.
• Train leaves 30+ minsues late

Sounds similar. Everyone these days seems to be "look after number one"

 

[miami]

Load of rubbish - I didn't assault them. I just moved to where I wanted to go

No, you physically shoved them both off the train.

http://www.stephenlickrish.com/legal-services/general-crime/assault/common-assault/

If you are accused of common assault, the police will have to prove that you have unlawfully used force against another person.

This can include anything from pushing past someone to punching and kicking them. The offence can either be committed by deliberately or recklessly

Pushing past someone is sometimes common assault. Actually shoving them off a train is far beyond that.

Is your defence is you would be inconvenienced if you hadn't potentially assaulted them?

What if in your shoving they had fallen and then died? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson comes to mind.

P.S I don't neccersarilly agree you were in the wrong, but actions have consequences.

 

[AM9]

So what would happen in these extreme cases if the passcom was pressed?

 

[jon91]

Sometimes you have no other option than to physically make your way through people, they're stuck in their own little worlds with not a flying monkey given to the fact that they're obstructing the exit. I'm not getting carried over to the next stop just because some eejit can't be bothered getting out of the way.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose paulweaver probably things I'm guilty of assualting people committing byelaw offences by attempting to shove onto a train when there is still me and a few people behind me to alight. Not like anyone ever listens to "Sorry, can you let us off first?" So you just walk straight into them

 

[yorksrob]

Seen it at Leeds on an evening:

• Crush loaded 142 after earlier service cancellation
• No one prepared to move off the train to allow guard on
• More people cramming on like something from Indian Railways- i fought my way off as it was clear it was going nowhere soon
• Guard asking repeatedly for people to move as they need access to back cab and controls.
• No one moves.
• Neither does train as guard cant get to controls.
• People get angry.
• Start twisting on.
• Someone pushes someone off.
• Arguments/unpleasantness/handbags
• BTP called.
• People escorted away.
• Train leaves 30+ minsues late

Bank Holiday Sundays seem particularly problematic for this.

 

[AM9]

If these inconsiderate passengers refuse to allow somebody off a train then how about a personal alarm to wake them up?

 

[bradders1983]

No, you physically shoved them both off the train.

http://www.stephenlickrish.com/legal-services/general-crime/assault/common-assault/


Pushing past someone is sometimes common assault. Actually shoving them off a train is far beyond that.

Is your defence is you would be inconvenienced if you hadn't potentially assaulted them?

What if in your shoving they had fallen and then died? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson comes to mind.

P.S I don't neccersarilly agree you were in the wrong, but actions have consequences.

Come on then Paul, what would YOU have done in the same situation? Stood there all meek and mild, waiting for them to move of their own accord, which could have been a few stops past where you needed to get off? :roll:

 

[paulfoel]

Come on then Paul, what would YOU have done in the same situation? Stood there all meek and mild, waiting for them to move of their own accord, which could have been a few stops past where you needed to get off? :roll:

exactly. I'd do same again without a doubt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose paulweaver probably things I'm guilty of assualting people committing byelaw offences by attempting to shove onto a train when there is still me and a few people behind me to alight. Not like anyone ever listens to "Sorry, can you let us off first?" So you just walk straight into them

I had that happen to me a few weeks ago. You know where people mill around the door and get in the way a bit when people are trying to get off?

I was getting off and you know where you've stepped off but you've still got hold of the door handle. Well a young girl was too keen, stepped around the crowd, right into my way. I honesty did not see her until I was stepping off.

My only options were try and pull myself back and risk going down between platform/train or let my momentum keep going. I chose the latter, and I'm a big lad, she went down like a sack of rice.

I did help her up and apologise and made sure she was ok...

But bottom line is if people are stepping down out of the train, they need to clear the gap if anyway, so waiting passengers need to ensure they are not below when people are getting off.

 

[Southwest]

Load of rubbish - I didn't assault them. I just moved to where I wanted to go and then put myself in the way to assist another passenger to get off.

Like it or not, classed as assault, you could have been done!

Was confronted by a similar thing earlier in the week on London Overground service from Stratford to Hackney Wick. If you speak loudly enough with an 'Excuse me please" you have a better chance than 'laying hands' on someone. At the end of the day the choice is yours. If you do it again, will you be so quick to come on here and say "I've just been done for assault, what did I do wrong"?

 

[bradders1983]

Like it or not, classed as assault, you could have been done!

Yeah, because after refusing to get off the train, they were really going to get off the train to make a complaint :roll::roll::roll:

 

[paulfoel]

Yeah, because after refusing to get off the train, they were really going to get off the train to make a complaint :roll::roll::roll:

LOL. If they'd had anyone even station staff on the platform they could have cleared them out of the way or even sort out the people getting off the train.
So no chance there was a BTP copper standing by waiting to see something like this!

 

[radamfi]

So boarding a crowded train can lead to guaranteed prosecution. If you can't get off without pushing people out of the way, you commit assault. If you don't get off because you fear prosecution for assault, then you commit fare evasion.

 

[the101]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

Such drama. What should he have done then, gone to Cardiff? He asked them politely to move, they refused. Forcibly getting past them, and taking them with him if needs be, is the only option. This is often the case on the Underground with the brainless idiots who try to board at the same time a considerable number of people are getting off. Eff them, they need to learn some manners.

 

[miami]

Come on then Paul, what would YOU have done in the same situation? Stood there all meek and mild, waiting for them to move of their own accord, which could have been a few stops past where you needed to get off? :roll:

I wouldn't have gone to Wales in the first place!

But yes I would have no doubt done the same. I've driven at 71mph on the motorway too, and got away with it. Doesn't change the fact that I was breaking the law.

Sometimes things go bad though, you shove someone, then they fall over, then they get trampled and end up dead. In the OPs case all it would take was a small misjudgement and he might have been looking at manslaughter, let alone common assault.

There's also the risk of confrontation - and given that we only have one view of the story too (from their point of view certainly, the OP could have appeared unreasonable). It's a good job they were rugby fans and not millwall FC, OP may have ended up with a knife in his chest.

Bit concerned about the "as long as the person I beat up doesn't complain it's all roses" brigade though. Whether someone presses a complaint or not is irrelevant, just like not having a ticket and not getting checked is illegal even if you don't get caught.

So boarding a crowded train can lead to guaranteed prosecution. If you can't get off without pushing people out of the way, you commit assault. If you don't get off because you fear prosecution for assault, then you commit fare evasion.

I don't think *not boarding* a train could ever lead to prosecution. It would seem to me that remaining on a train after your ticket has expired because you were physically unable to get off should be a clear defence against any ticket irregularities too.

Well a young girl was too keen, stepped around the crowd, right into my way. I honesty did not see her until I was stepping off.

My only options were try and pull myself back and risk going down between platform/train or let my momentum keep going. I chose the latter, and I'm a big lad, she went down like a sack of rice.

You are Boris Johnson AICMFP.

 

[LowLevel]

If my trains are that full punctuality goes out of the window. I walk along the full train from back to front and back again to make sure everyone is off who wants to be and assist those being obstructed and to hell with the timetable.

 

[Minilad]

There are the way things are in the real world. And there are the way things are with hindsight of drama queens on the internet

 

[Johncleesefan]

Unfortunately in the elf n safety day and age where everyone is suing everyone, this could of resulted to prosecution. But yes false imprisonment would of been a good one to hurl right back at them. Queer old work we live in where folk don't look out for one another anymore

 

[DarloRich]

There are the way things are in the real world. And there are the way things are with hindsight of drama queens on the internet

and there we have a winner!

Years of playing rugby in the front row makes me very skilled at pushing the bloke who tried to barge on as i got off found that out the other day. The rozzers will never take me alive.................

 

[causton]

Like it or not, classed as assault, you could have been done!

And I'll be jailed for taking oxygen from Sainsbury's without paying when I go to shop there!

 

[coupwotcoup]

Depends if you need a plastic bag for it or not....

 

[londonbridge]

I don't think *not boarding* a train could ever lead to prosecution. It would seem to me that remaining on a train after your ticket has expired because you were physically unable to get off should be a clear defence against any ticket irregularities too.

Coming home one Saturday night a woman missed her stop and started arguing when the guard tried to charge her for a single to the next station, claiming that she had been unable to get to her luggage and get off "because the bloke with the drinks trolley was blocking the way".

I've also seen a fight on the tramlink where someone trying to get on was repeatedly pushed back on to the platform by a passenger already on the tram who was shouting at him 'you ain't getting on this tram 'cos there's no f****ng room so f*** off and wait for the next one".

 

[Chris M]

This can be a problem on the London Underground some times as well.

Regular commuters will know which side of the train the doors open at the station where they want to get off, but visitors will not and are often stuck right in the middle of the carriage when the train arrives at their destination.

I too have had to shove people out of the way when they are standing in the way of the doors and will not move, despite me asking them several times.

Indeed. When I used to commute into Liverpool Street central line, there were a couple of occasions when I didn't manage to get to the doors in time because of the volume of people and got overcarried despite knowing exactly where and when I needed to get off.
Fortunately for me Liverpool Street to Bank is not Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff in terms of time or distance!

 

[45107]

I wouldn't have gone to Wales in the first place

There's also the risk of confrontation - and given that we only have one view of the story too (from their point of view certainly, the OP could have appeared unreasonable). It's a good job they were rugby fans and not millwall FC, OP may have ended up with a knife in his chest.

What is your problem with the Welsh or Millwall supporters ?
Any evidence to back up the statement that Millwall fans carry knifes ? Seems to imply it is normal behaviour

(No, I am not Welsh nor a Millwall supporter, but I now people who meet that criteria and they are HUMAN)