Train packed - people won't move to get on and off

[matt_world2004]

If it is assault to push someone off the train. I have seen indic staff pull people off the train when it has been too full for the door to close.

 

[miami]

What is your problem with the Welsh or Millwall supporters ?
Any evidence to back up the statement that Millwall fans carry knifes ? Seems to imply it is normal behaviour

(No, I am not Welsh nor a Millwall supporter, but I now people who meet that criteria and they are HUMAN)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/football-hooliganism-rising-how-your-2355308

Cardiff is top of the banning orders, Millwall is 5th. Both are known for the historical issues with football hooliganism.
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Coming home one Saturday night a woman missed her stop and started arguing when the guard tried to charge her for a single to the next station, claiming that she had been unable to get to her luggage and get off "because the bloke with the drinks trolley was blocking the way".

I've also seen a fight on the tramlink where someone trying to get on was repeatedly pushed back on to the platform by a passenger already on the tram who was shouting at him 'you ain't getting on this tram 'cos there's no f****ng room so f*** off and wait for the next one".

Its amazing how quickly things can escalate. If you push someone who decides they don't want to be pushed you could easily get hurt. If you push someone who will just take it you can easily end up killing them.

Fundamentally the problem is overcrowding, however shoving will either lead to nothing happening, or will lead to severe problems. Introduce a gang of sports fans into it, rather than the typical rush hour tube full of ipod-drones, and all it takes is the wrong colour skin and you get an international incident.

 

[radamfi]

Its amazing how quickly things can escalate. If you push someone who decides they don't want to be pushed you could easily get hurt. If you push someone who will just take it you can easily end up killing them.

Fundamentally the problem is overcrowding, however shoving will either lead to nothing happening, or will lead to severe problems. Introduce a gang of sports fans into it, rather than the typical rush hour tube full of ipod-drones, and all it takes is the wrong colour skin and you get an international incident.

So train travel is too risky. The choice is either:

prosecution for assault
penalty fare/prosecution for overriding and great inconvenience as a result of the consequential delay
prosecution for pulling the emergency handle

 

[Bletchleyite]

I too have had to shove people out of the way when they are standing in the way of the doors and will not move, despite me asking them several times.

I have never felt the need to push in those cases, I simply stand in the doorway, preventing the doors from closing, and blocking them from boarding. It usually does get through to them that unless they move the whole job will be stopped until they do.

 

[Bantamzen]

Have I been reading this correctly, someone feels that trying to get off a train at your stop by pushing or pushing past other passengers who refuse to move could be considered assault? Well how about looking at it from the flip side, those passengers refusing to move could be considered to be harassing or impeding the OP, possibly as others have suggest unlawfully holding people against their will..... :roll:

Good grief, this "If it moves, sue 'em" culture has gone too far. Put it this way, if I'm on a busy train trying to get off at my stop I will ask politely for people to move to allow me to. But if they ignore my request or even refuse, I'll make use of my shoulders RL style to help them make a gap....

 

[miami]

Have I been reading this correctly, someone feels that trying to get off a train at your stop by pushing or pushing past other passengers who refuse to move could be considered assault? Well how about looking at it from the flip side, those passengers refusing to move could be considered to be harassing or impeding the OP, possibly as others have suggest unlawfully holding people against their will..... :roll:

Good grief, this "If it moves, sue 'em" culture has gone too far. Put it this way, if I'm on a busy train trying to get off at my stop I will ask politely for people to move to allow me to. But if they ignore my request or even refuse, I'll make use of my shoulders RL style to help them make a gap....

No, someone doesn't feel that. Someone points out that technically shoving someone off a train (perhaps with a large gap, horizontal or vertical) this may well be classed as common assault (having provided a definition above), and can also lead to

1) The shover being attacked in retaliation
2) The shovee falling and being injured, or even dying

In this case the shover not only barged two people off a train, but has previous form for flattening a young girl. And this is his side of the story!

Originally when I read the OPs account I had sympathy for him and his prediciment, however on re-reading it, and reading the fact that
1) He's a large man who can use his bulk to intimidate
2) He's wiped out a young girl in the past

I have far less sympathy. I've missed trains before due to overcrowding, I've never felt the need to start shoving people around though. Is it a common thing for the rest of the world to have to shove people around to get their way, or have those of us who aren't "big lads" learnt better ways to cope with such situations? Perhaps we could have a poll "how many people have you physically shoved off of a train to reduce the delay to your journey", and "how many people on a platform have you flattened"?

The fundamental problem is First not putting enough seats on, and not managing the stations well, leading to overcrowding which leads to short tempers. The OP however as a "big lad" who describes (presumably petit) people he walks into as going "down like a sack of rice" escalated the issue.

Not only did he shove two people (and indeed why two people - were they far smaller then him?) off the train, he then continued shoving them while they were on the platform!

The two people who didn't move aren't entirely innocent, but I can see their side of the story too. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's got off a tube train to give others an easier access, only to be unable to get back on the train. They didn't get physical, and they didn't prevent the OP from leaving via another door of the train. I don't see any case there any more than having a crowd infront of you trying to exit oxford circus but being blocked would could as "false imprisonment".

 

[N Levers]

The fundamental problem is First not putting enough seats on, and not managing the stations well, leading to overcrowding which leads to short tempers. The OP however as a "big lad" who describes (presumably petit) people he walks into as going "down like a sack of rice" escalated the issue.

Was it not ATW?

 

[miami]

Was it not ATW?

Well ATW and First (anyone else serve Cardiff? XC?)

 

[meridian2]

What this incident has demonstrated is that there is a fine line between assault and 'shoving' people and it's such a grey area merely because people interpret the law subjectively. Really, the only opinion that matters of whether you did commit assault is from that of the police. Everyone else is merely 'armchair-criticising'.
I sometimes 'barge' or 'bump' people in the street etc. If they wish to report me for assault, then I have to respect that. If not, a few strong words and we go on our merry way, and,l likewise, I have to respect that.

 

[PHILIPE]

Well ATW and First (anyone else serve Cardiff? XC?)

XC Yes they do

 

[Phil.]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

They should be having a word with a train operating company for putting people in such a situation. The rugby world cup was hardly a surprise event.

 

[CC 72100]

They should be having a word with a train operating company for putting people in such a situation. The rugby world cup was hardly a surprise event.

Surprise event maybe not, although I challenge you to come up with a proposal that transports all those heading to/from the game and run services as normal with the same amount of trains that are normally available...

 

[bramling]

Surprise event maybe not, although I challenge you to come up with a proposal that transports all those heading to/from the game and run services as normal with the same amount of trains that are normally available...

Sooner the wretched rugby world cup is over the better.

 

[miami]

They should be having a word with a train operating company for putting people in such a situation. The rugby world cup was hardly a surprise event.

Probably so, not because of not putting on the trains, but by allowing the platforms and trains to get so overcrowded. Barriers should have been closed way before, just like they do on the underground at central stations (Victoria, Oxford Circus etc).

But I learnt in nursery school that two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Starmill]

The fundamental problem is First not putting enough seats on, and not managing the stations well, leading to overcrowding which leads to short tempers. The OP however as a "big lad" who describes (presumably petit) people he walks into as going "down like a sack of rice" escalated the issue.

I've never heard of the 'Bristol Post' before, but their website is an absolute disgrace. The number of ads that cover up or move around what you are trying to read! I just closed the tab without finishing the article.

 

[Springs Branch]

.... I too have had to shove people out of the way when they are standing in the way of the doors and will not move, despite me asking them several times.

I have this challenge regularly in my neck of the woods, on trams in the city centre during rush hours. These get very crowded, the alighting problem exasperating because commuters boarding move the minimum distance into the tram, totally block the doors then eyes down, focused on their phones with their little white earplugs in and oblivious to anyone trying to pass to get off. Any polite "excuse me" request is generally ignored.

A few weeks ago, in danger of being carried past my stop because of a particularly intransigent crowd, I announced loudly "I'M GOING TO BE SICK!" I don't quite know where they moved to, but it was like the parting of the Red Sea. Off the tram, no worries. Once safely on the platform I turned around, two thumbs up, grinned at the scowling stooges in the doorway and said "that made you move, didn't it"

 

[Bevan Price]

The fundamental problem is First not putting enough seats on, and not managing the stations well, leading to overcrowding which leads to short tempers. .

No - the fundamental problem is the DfT, and indirectly, the treasury -- Osborne & predecessors, not allowing the railway to have enough trains.

Perhaps things might change if the pillocks in Whitehall were compelled to travel on overcrowded trains every day for a year or three........

 

[theironroad]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

Don't know what your job is, but get a grip mate........

 

[matt_world2004]

No - the fundamental problem is the DfT, and indirectly, the treasury -- Osborne & predecessors, not allowing the railway to have enough trains.

Perhaps things might change if the pillocks in Whitehall were compelled to travel on overcrowded trains every day for a year or three........

Nothing stopping first owning or leasing their own trains infact , That is exactly what they do with Heathrow Connect.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Didn't some Chelsea fans get prosecuted and lose their jobs for doing something similar in Paris last year?

 

[yorkie]

.....They didn't get physical, and they didn't prevent the OP from leaving via another door of the train. I don't see any case there any more than having a crowd infront of you trying to exit oxford circus but being blocked would could as "false imprisonment".

If they were physically preventing access to the exit, with no other exit readily available (eg. your path to any other exit is also blocked), then almost anyone in a position to go past them is going to do so. I know I would.

If you would let yourself be over-carried that's your choice but I'm with the OP.
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Didn't some Chelsea fans get prosecuted and lose their jobs for doing something similar in Paris last year?

No. That was a serious racist incident, not in any way similar to the situation described by the OP.

 

[miami]

A few weeks ago, in danger of being carried past my stop because of a particularly intransigent crowd, I announced loudly "I'M GOING TO BE SICK!"

An excellent solution to the problem

 

[bb21]

Nothing stopping first owning or leasing their own trains infact , That is exactly what they do with Heathrow Connect.

They are not allowed to. There was a massive kerfuffle with DafT when FGW owned some HST stock a while ago.

I understand the point about it being a fine line between simply shoving people out of the way and assault. I think as long as reasonable force is adjudged to have been used, there would be no case to answer.

Fortunately I have good use of my voice to stun people into action being able to project it effectively without ever really having to resort to pushing. I may just try the "I'm gonna be sick" trick next time.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The rozzers will never take me alive.................

Ay up, my wife is a 'rozzer'!
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I sometimes 'barge' or 'bump' people in the street etc. If they wish to report me for assault, then I have to respect that. If not, a few strong words and we go on our merry way, and,l likewise, I have to respect that.

Why do you do that then?

 

[bb21]

Why do you do that then?

If you were as clumsy as I am while walking in the street, you would understand.

 

[Springs Branch]

I sometimes 'barge' or 'bump' people in the street etc. If they wish to report me for assault, then I have to respect that.

Why do you do that then?

I'm not sure what circumstances Badger89 is referring to here, but I can have some sympathy.

I lived for a good number of years in central Cambridge, where the pavements are narrow. Every day during the Tourist Season there are groups of tourists, mainly from overseas in my experience, who refuse to make allowance for anyone else trying to use the pavement. I would make a point of not stepping into the roadway and force my way through them regardless.

I'm not normally in the habit of being impolite, but the alternative was to be forced off the pavement time-and-time-again, day-in-day-out by French and Italian school parties, so sometimes fully justified in my opinion!

 

[kingston_toon]

You assaulted two people because they were in your way? I've seen worse, and probably not worth arresting you, but the police should certainly have had a strong word with you.

:roll:

 

[swj99]

.....

 

[radamfi]

I suppose for all journeys from now on you could buy a ticket to the last stop to avoid being accused of fare evasion. But that would make a lot of trips uneconomic.

 

[meridian2]

Not wishing to take the thread off topic by tales of my personal experiences but I should've clarified that 'barging' and 'bumping' into people was wholly by accident and not to set out playing 'human skittles'. Like bb21 has said, maybe I'm just clumsy.