Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[SteveRainhill]

Someone suggested routing all stoppers through one platform only. This would reduce the problem, but I reckon it would reduce the operational flexibility which is the investment's prime goal. Late stoppers, for example, would then have to queue when a line and platform might be free.

They could accommodate perturbations with a platform change, provided there was a platform available. The question is what should be the standard pattern, and it remains a puzzle why a simpler and more convenient one hasn't been introduced.

 

[snowball]

Are the Huyton and Roby layout works to separate fast/slows, or to separate Chat Moss/Wigan line trains? Or both?

I think it's more to separate the two routes, but they are using fast/slow as the names of the lines.

 

[OxtedL]

Are the Huyton and Roby layout works to separate fast/slows, or to separate Chat Moss/Wigan line trains? Or both?

Both. There's not a huge amount of point in having included links to the 'slow' lines from the Manchester direction if you don't intend to do both. It allows you to get fast Manchester to Liverpool trains around stoppers, as well as avoiding stoppers from the Wigan line.

 

[joeykins82]

I assume that it's to provide a passing facility, there's a diagram here: http://nw-sparks.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/huyton-roby-extra-tracks.html

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the new layout at Huyton, Wigan-Liverpool trains cannot use P1.
Manchester-Liverpool can use either P1 or P2 but preferably P1.
So there will always be an operational choice.

When P4 goes live, it will be able to host trains to both Wigan and Manchester.
P3 will lose the ability to serve the Wigan route.

Roby mirrors Huyton.

 

[LDECRexile]

I visited Manchester Victoria today.

1. I estimate there are six bases without masts West of the station. I say 'estimate' because I think a couple are anchor points rather than mast bases.

2. There appears to be a full set of vertical pipes fixed to the underside of the building over the station, to which wires will be attached - all the way along both pairs of through tracks.

3. The forest of masts to the West surrounding Salford Central and to Ordsall Lane Junction range from bare uprights to Christmas trees festooned with ironmongery.

4. No wires at all, however.

5. Absolutely nothing to support speculation/hopes some time ago that Salford Central's disused tracks might be brought into use during this round of work.

 

[DJH1971]

5. Absolutely nothing to support speculation/hopes some time ago that Salford Central's disused tracks might be brought into use during this round of work.

More than likely that will wait for the Ordsall Chord.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

More than likely that will wait for the Ordsall Chord.

That was my thought too but no evidence/link/report to support that sorry.

 

[snowball]

That was my thought too but no evidence/link/report to support that sorry.

Well, there's the fact that the Ordsall Chord plans show five tracks through Central.

And the obvious fact that there's no point in changing the layout there until it's known whether the Chord will be going ahead.

And if anyone was expecting the reopening/building of the three extra platforms now, there's the fact that that is not part of the Chord or the electrification project, but is a TfGM project, and it's only a couple of weeks ago that they learned they'd got the money from government.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

and it's only a couple of weeks ago that they learned they'd got the money from government.

... and building the Chord first doesn't preclude the extra platforms going in second (in fact, it is marginally less risky that way round)

 

[nw-sparks]

realtimetrains still shows all trains as P1 or P2, no P3s yet. I don't know whether this is the data it's fed or needing some internal update.

The new timetable (from 14/12/14) has started appearing in my database and on a first scan I was surprised to see it looks like they're still showing only P1 and P2 for Huyton.

Apropos of nothing, we've got loads of extra trains today for people going to see the giants. Timekeeping has been awful all morning.

 

[The Planner]

It will do as the timetable would have been offered before they knew what was happening, depsite the fact it is there to drive a timetable, we are normally the last to know....

 

[DJH1971]

Going into Liverpool this morning, in addition to the wiring already up between Wavertree to Olive Mount Junction, the return wiring is now stretching sort of half way between Broad Green to Roby.

 

[LDECRexile]

I visited Earlestown yesterday evening. Another base has appeared on the South side of the W-S curve, between the western end of platform 2 and Junction Lane bridge.

I estimate two more masts are needed on that side: one between the new one described above and Junction Lane bridge itself and the other between the one described above and the one on the long-disused S-to-W platform. There may be a scrape for such a base immediately behind the fence at the extreme western end of platform 2, but it is unclear.

When those two are installed it appears we will have:

1. a complete set of bases on the southern side of the tracks from the eastern end of Sankey Viaduct to Earlestown South Junction, and
2. a complete set of bases on the northern side of the tracks from the eastern end of Sankey Viaduct to the western end of Earlestown platform 1.

I therefore reckon we only have the following complete gaps over the whole project. (By "complete gap" I mean no masts, bases or scrapes at all.)

Earlestown Station, platforms 1 & 2
Sankey Viaduct
Rainhill Station
Chat Moss bridge over M57
Huyton Junction to western end of Huyton Station
Roby Station

Wigan line bridge over East Lancs Road
Wigan line viaduct at Carr Mill

It could be that some of these are "non-gaps", eg the Chat Moss bridge over the M57 may not need any masts at all.

I have only seen one base so far to the North of the tracks from Roby Jct to the western end of Huyton platform 4. Contractors on the ground have told me that foundations have been excavated, inspected by Network Rail and filled in, pending pile-driving in the coming weeks.

The appearance of fixings, along the lines of those in Lime Street cutting on (at least) the western side of the western end of the "canyon" between Eccleston Park and Thatto Heath bodes well. I had wondered if this was left until late in the project because it was hard or because it was straightforward. As a layman I have no idea which.

Also as a layman it appears that foundations are the things most fraught with unknowns; once a base is in place with concrete set or a wall fixing is attached and stable it is thereafter Meccano - highly skilled work, but entirely within man's control. Is that why many modern buildings' foundations seem to take forever, then suddenly they're open for business?

Has anyone else spotted any other gaps I've missed?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has anyone else spotted any other gaps I've missed?

There is a long wiring gap over the M6 on the Wigan line between Garswood and Bryn, and yet it is fully wired through the stations.
It's not clear if this is due to lack of foundations.
You can still see odd stacks of metal piles around Ince Moss - they must be going somewhere!
Between Roby and Huyton there are "lids" on structures on the north side which might be the future mast bases you mention above, but it's impossible to know.
And oddest of all, there are about a dozen metal piles stacked up at the now abandoned Kenyon Junction work site for Phase 1.

I read in the paper this week that Carillion and Balfour Beatty are discussing a possible merger.
If that happens the combined company would have the NR electrification contracts for NW, NE (TP), East Midlands (MML) and Scotland (EGIP).

 

[LDECRexile]

Agree re "lids". I suspect the Kenyon heap are leftovers, but I don't really know.

Combined tally of gaps:

We only have the following complete gaps over the whole project. (By "complete gap" I mean no masts, bases or scrapes at all.)

Earlestown Station, platforms 1 & 2
Sankey Viaduct
Rainhill Station
Chat Moss bridge over M57
Huyton Junction to western end of Huyton Station
Roby Station

Wigan line bridge over East Lancs Road
Wigan line viaduct at Carr Mill
Wigan line viaduct over the M6

Any more anyone?

 

[L+Y]

Going into Liverpool this morning, in addition to the wiring already up between Wavertree to Olive Mount Junction, the return wiring is now stretching sort of half way between Broad Green to Roby.

I came through Wavertree yesterday evening, but couldn't make it out due to being sat on the wrong side: is the station now fully wired? Or is it just return wiring still?

 

[SteveRainhill]

Agree re "lids". I suspect the Kenyon heap are leftovers, but I don't really know.

Combined tally of gaps:

We only have the following complete gaps over the whole project. (By "complete gap" I mean no masts, bases or scrapes at all.)

Earlestown Station, platforms 1 & 2
Sankey Viaduct
Rainhill Station
Chat Moss bridge over M57
Huyton Junction to western end of Huyton Station
Roby Station

Wigan line bridge over East Lancs Road
Wigan line viaduct at Carr Mill
Wigan line viaduct over the M6

Any more anyone?

Information on the Rainhill gap is thin on the ground. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of electrification plans on the St Helens planning site (beyond already completed work). Except for this interesting paragraph from English Heritage's letter responding to the Sankey Viaduct proposals (my highlighting):

We broadly support the proposals outlined for Rainhill Station and are content to leave further discussions on the details of the headspans and bridge attachments to the local planning authority with the benefit of advice from their Conservation Officer.

If this is an accurate use of language, it means something distinctive is proposed for Rainhill.

 

[DJH1971]

I came through Wavertree yesterday evening, but couldn't make it out due to being sat on the wrong side: is the station now fully wired? Or is it just return wiring still?

Mainly return wires, but a bit of wiring on temporary droppers.

 

[LDECRexile]

Oops, missed one:

We only have the following complete gaps over the whole project. (By "complete gap" I mean no masts, bases or scrapes at all.)

Earlestown Station, platforms 1 & 2
Sankey Viaduct
Rainhill Station
Chat Moss bridge over the M57
Huyton Junction to western end of Huyton Station
Roby Station

Wigan line bridge over the M57
Wigan line bridge over East Lancs Road
Wigan line viaduct at Carr Mill
Wigan line viaduct over the M6

 

[8A Rail]

Oops, missed one:
We only have the following complete gaps over the whole project. (By "complete gap" I mean no masts, bases or scrapes at all.)

Roby Station

Not quite true, the base is already in at the station, located on Platform 2 and 3, roughly in the middle - it seems the mast / stanchions will be of a "T" type. The bases are also in at either end of the station also, (1) East end is near (in line) to Signal LL3590 and (2) West end is on the other side of Church Road Bridge. HTH.

 

[LDECRexile]

Not quite true, the base is already in at the station, located on Platform 2 and 3, roughly in the middle - it seems the mast / stanchions will be of a "T" type. The bases are also in at either end of the station also, (1) East end is near (in line) to Signal LL3590 and (2) West end is on the other side of Church Road Bridge. HTH.

Excellent news, thank you.

We only have the following complete gaps over the whole project. (By "complete gap" I mean no masts, bases or scrapes at all.)

Earlestown Station, platforms 1 & 2
Sankey Viaduct
Rainhill Station
Chat Moss bridge over the M57
Huyton Junction to western end of Huyton Station

Wigan line bridge over the M57
Wigan line bridge over East Lancs Road
Wigan line viaduct at Carr Mill
Wigan line viaduct over the M6

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Progress noted today:

Return wire stretches east from Olive Mount almost to the new Roby Jn (Down).
Also on the Wigan line from west of Prescot to Eccleston Park, and Thatto Heath to the Pilkington's site.
Far less wire on the Up.
Some bases noted between the new Up line and the old 2-track section, west of Roby.

There are 2 fully wired sections Carr Mill to Garswood and from Bryn eastwards, but there is an unwired gap between them over the M6.
Return wire stretches from Bryn to beyond Ince Moss Jn (on the Up - less on the Down).
Masts can be seen on the Ince Moss-Bamfurlong Jn spur.

There is now a full set of bases on the curve towards Warrington at Earlestown.
Most of these are in the trackbed of the former Liverpool-bound line, so there must be no thought of a future redoubling of the junctions and single track.
Otherwise, nothing much new on the Huyton-Earlestown section.

 

[DJH1971]

Progress noted today:

Return wire stretches east from Olive Mount almost to the new Roby Jn (Down).
Also on the Wigan line from west of Prescot to Eccleston Park, and Thatto Heath to the Pilkington's site.
Far less wire on the Up.
Some bases noted between the new Up line and the old 2-track section, west of Roby.

There are 2 fully wired sections Carr Mill to Garswood and from Bryn eastwards, but there is an unwired gap between them over the M6.
Return wire stretches from Bryn to beyond Ince Moss Jn (on the Up - less on the Down).
Masts can be seen on the Ince Moss-Bamfurlong Jn spur.

There is now a full set of bases on the curve towards Warrington at Earlestown.
Most of these are in the trackbed of the former Liverpool-bound line, so there must be no thought of a future redoubling of the junctions and single track.
Otherwise, nothing much new on the Huyton-Earlestown section.

They need to move now on the Sankey Viaduct, which seems to be one of only a tiny handful of places with no progress.

 

[LDECRexile]

Between Roby and Huyton there are "lids" on structures on the north side which might be the future mast bases you mention above, but it's impossible to know.

I was out and about today and had another look at the "lids". Given their shapes, their spacing and the fact that they closely follow the line of warnings about buried cables I'd bet a pint (but not my pension) that they are not mast bases.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not quite true, the base is already in at the station, located on Platform 2 and 3, roughly in the middle - it seems the mast / stanchions will be of a "T" type. The bases are also in at either end of the station also, (1) East end is near (in line) to Signal LL3590 and (2) West end is on the other side of Church Road Bridge. HTH.

I was out and about today and visited Roby station. I agree there is a base (two, now) West of the bridge between tracks 2 & 3, but I couldn't for the life of me see the others you refer to, one mid-platform 2/3 and the other nearer Huyton. Did you take any photos by any chance?

Hope I'm mistaken.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Progress noted today:

Return wire stretches east from Olive Mount almost to the new Roby Jn (Down).

Agreed: this means there is a wire run from West of Wavertree Tech Park station almost to the new Roby Jct.

Also on the Wigan line from west of Prescot to Eccleston Park, and Thatto Heath to the Pilkington's site.
Far less wire on the Up.
Some bases noted between the new Up line and the old 2-track section, west of Roby.

There are 2 fully wired sections Carr Mill to Garswood and from Bryn eastwards, but there is an unwired gap between them over the M6.
Return wire stretches from Bryn to beyond Ince Moss Jn (on the Up - less on the Down).
Masts can be seen on the Ince Moss-Bamfurlong Jn spur.

All agreed.

There is now a full set of bases on the curve towards Warrington at Earlestown.

On the curve itself, I agree, but I think there is one (only) still to be installed East of Junction Lane Bridge on the South side.

Most of these are in the trackbed of the former Liverpool-bound line, so there must be no thought of a future redoubling of the junctions and single track. Agreed
Otherwise, nothing much new on the Huyton-Earlestown section.

Agree nothing dramatic or striking, but I reckon 13 bases between Huyton and Earlestown have quietly had masts stuck on them over the last week.

There is a lone scrape just beyond the eastern end of Earlestown platform 2, matching a long-established one on the other side of the Chat Moss tracks.

 

[DJH1971]

Agree nothing dramatic or striking, but I reckon 13 bases between Huyton and Earlestown have quietly had masts stuck on them over the last week.

There is a lone scrape just beyond the eastern end of Earlestown platform 2, matching a long-established one on the other side of the Chat Moss tracks.

I can confirm that I saw at least one of these masts in place today, which is just to the east of the footbridge (known locally as the Millenium bridge) crossing over the line on the public woodlands where Bold Colliery once stood.

 

[LDECRexile]

On the Wigan line there are at least nine fixings on the West side of the "canyon" between Eccleston Park and Thatto Heath and at least eight on the East side. I found them hard to spot and am sure there will be matching pairs, to which cross-members ("headspans"?) will be mounted.

Compared with the Lime Street approaches where great big recesses were cut out from the rock into which cross-members were fixed these seem positively dainty. Maybe what we can see so far is Stage One of something grander?

A few bases have had masts stuck on them north of St Helens Central.

The route North of St Helens has signallers beavering away all over the shop, with the lower half of several signals in place.

Some posts ago I commented on the apparent gap immediately North of the bridge North of Eccleston Park station. I have now seen there is a base there hidden in the foliage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Huyton & Roby signalling etc get a mention:

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=8097&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10#continued

 

[edwin_m]

On the Wigan line there are at least nine fixings on the West side of the "canyon" between Eccleston Park and Thatto Heath and at least eight on the East side. I found them hard to spot and am sure there will be matching pairs, to which cross-members ("headspans"?) will be mounted.

They probably won't be headspans, as this term refers specifically to wires strung across the track to support the catenary and contact wires. Network Rail policy is not to use these on new work due to the amount of damage caused in a dewirement.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They probably won't be headspans, as this term refers specifically to wires strung across the track to support the catenary and contact wires. Network Rail policy is not to use these on new work due to the amount of damage caused in a dewirement.

I should think they will be the same kind of gear used in the artificial concrete canyons near Ordsall Lane where the M602 roundabout crosses the line.

 

[8A Rail]

I was out and about today and visited Roby station. I agree there is a base (two, now) West of the bridge between tracks 2 & 3, but I couldn't for the life of me see the others you refer to, one mid-platform 2/3 and the other nearer Huyton. Did you take any photos by any chance?
Hope I'm mistaken.

East of Roby Station is on the right of the unit in this image:- https://picasaweb.google.com/104517...icationWorkMerseyside2014#6037481461291024194

As for the one on the platform, no image but I can assure you it is there although been covered up (large cover on it?) - I did actually see it when completed some weeks ago - about 2' wide with 4 very large blots and nuts - clearly they were for a mast and given the distance between the mast bases roughly either end of the station, it was about the correct spot. You will note the platform has not received its top suface yet unlike Huyton station for Platforms 2 &3.