Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[cslusarc]

Is there any likelihood that some of FC's Class 317/1s or 321/4s get sent up north to Northern in-lieu of the currently planned Class 319s?

IMHO, only AC EMU's should go up north while Dual Voltage EMUs should stay in the Southeast.

 

[DXMachina]

IMHO, only AC EMU's should go up north while Dual Voltage EMUs should stay in the Southeast.

I assumed the rebuilds were going to remove DV ability on the grounds of simplify to make reliable? in the same way that Southerns 313s no longer have AC ability and at one time 319s were used without pantographs on the DC network.

Only place in the north that suits DV is merseyside and I dont think a 319 would fit in their tunnels?

 

[Manchester77]

I assumed the rebuilds were going to remove DV ability on the grounds of simplify to make reliable? in the same way that Southerns 313s no longer have AC ability and at one time 319s were used without pantographs on the DC network.

Only place in the north that suits DV is merseyside and I dont think a 319 would fit in their tunnels?

Would they even be aloud as all trains have to have an end door iirc

 

[Eagle]

Is there any likelihood that some of FC's Class 317/1s or 321/4s get sent up north to Northern in-lieu of the currently planned Class 319s?

Unlikely, it's probably too late to change it. Plus all the bidders for the Thameslink/Southern franchise are making their bids based on it being 319s that are going.

 

[edwin_m]

Would they even be aloud as all trains have to have an end door iirc

319s have end doors. Whether they still would after refurbishment is unknown (to me at least).

 

[CJ]

319s have end doors. Whether they still would after refurbishment is unknown (to me at least).

Porterbrook released a Brochure on what the class 319s would get/look like if they're allowed to do the refurbishment.

http://www.porterbrook.com/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf

On page 10, you can see that they would like to have the class 319s have new ends (and from the looks of it, they want to keep end doors). They want to do this to give passengers the impression that they're "new" trains.

 

[ianhr]

If the 319s are to have new ends then I would have thought it might be more useful to fit gangway/vestibule ends rather than just retain end doors. This would facilitate conductor, passengers, catering trolley movement throughout the train when coupled in multiple, a shortcoming of most DMU stock in the North apart from classes 156, 158 and some 150s.

In my view air con is a waste of money and unwelcome. It consumes huge amounts of energy and the ~2 weeks of the year when it is needed it seldom works properly. I would rather open a window.

 

[PhilipW]

In my view air con is a waste of money and unwelcome. It consumes huge amounts of energy and the ~2 weeks of the year when it is needed it seldom works properly. I would rather open a window.

One can argue about the merits or demerits of Air Conditioning in the various parts of the UK. One thing I certainly don't like is windows that open. Sitting there with a breeze may be lovely on a few days in the year but not for most.

Personally I am delighted that all modern trains do not have windows that open.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One thing I certainly don't like is windows that open. Sitting there with a breeze may be lovely on a few days in the year but not for most.
Personally I am delighted that all modern trains do not have windows that open.

Hopper windows make me cross.
Passengers get on, and immediately open the hopper above their seat.
Train leaves station, causing a big draught to the opposite corner of the carriage (where I am inevitably sitting).
Meanwhile the people under the window, with no draught, wonder what all the fuss is about.

Then there's the 158 syndrome. Air conditioned, but only just.
The emergency windows have to be opened on hot days and you are back with hopper windows.

 

[northwichcat]

Hopper windows make me cross.

When they break they seem to want to stay in an open position opposed to a closed position, which wasn't what the passengers wanted on a Northern 150 I was on last week.

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any likelihood that some of FC's Class 317/1s or 321/4s get sent up north to Northern in-lieu of the currently planned Class 319s?

IMHO, only AC EMU's should go up north while Dual Voltage EMUs should stay in the Southeast.

FCC's 317s & 321s should be released after the 319s so it won't make much different when you free up the units however doing one large group of the dame class is better for traction knowledge as you only have to teach one type of train.

The one problem with your idea is the AC only units aren't released until later on so only the 319s would be able to go up north. This is in part connected to the fact that the 700s are required on Thameslink first for training purposes as well as Three Bridges is the initial depot to be used for fleet introduction where as Hornsey will be used for ATO commissioning.

Under the current schedule all the 319's could be freed from Thameslink duties by September/October 2016 (depending what the TSGN bidders decide on).

The current big unknown is the introduction of the class 700s which is running around 6 months ahead. This could affect the timings of when stock is freed, its currently a moving goalpost to predict what's going to happen and when.

 

[Wavertreelad]

In my view air con is a waste of money and unwelcome. It consumes huge amounts of energy and the ~2 weeks of the year when it is needed it seldom works properly. I would rather open a window.

Aircon might be appreciated by the majority of passengers on a packed train left standing for any length of time in the tunnels or cutting leading to Lime Street....

 

[Darren R]

Then there's the 158 syndrome. Air conditioned, but only just.
The emergency windows have to be opened on hot days and you are back with hopper windows.

In my experience of Northern's 158s the air conditioning works very well - but only in winter!

 

[HSTEd]

In my view air con is a waste of money and unwelcome. It consumes huge amounts of energy and the ~2 weeks of the year when it is needed it seldom works properly. I would rather open a window.

I would rather my journey passed quietly so that I can get on with doing things that I need to do or just relaxing.

The roar of air rushing through and past a window is not conducive to this.

 

[DavidL]

Moving back to trackside infrastructure briefly, a few more items noticed in the last week ish. Had a somewhat broken journey into work yesterday morning owing to a couple of pre-work appointments, so I got to study a few locations in a bit more detail than usual.

Garswood now has a pair of masts visible from the platform looking towards Wigan. I had previously noticed a few between Arch Ln and Garswood Rd so perhaps they're working towards Bryn now or just filling bits in.

At St Helens, there are now holes on the platform for what I guess will be cantilever gantry types, given they're only on the Liv-bound platform. Additionally, there's a lot more foundation work than I recall at the (Parr St?) bridge end.

It is looking, save for a few specialist constructions and platform masts, to be working fast towards completion in and around St Helens / Carr Mill and extending towards and past Garswood at quite a rate again.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At St Helens, there are now holes on the platform for what I guess will be cantilever gantry types, given they're only on the Liv-bound platform. Additionally, there's a lot more foundation work than I recall at the (Parr St?) bridge end.

I passed the big hole at St Helens Junction today. Six orange suits were standing in it - an expensive hole!
Similarly at Central on the Wigan line.
Excavations extend east of the Junction station now, but the nearest concrete is still about half a mile west.
While progress continues, there are still too may steelwork gaps to start wiring the Wigan branch.

On Phase 1, there is another conundrum.
On every 10th mast or so, there is a pair of insulators pointing along the track.
When "finished" these carry a wire up to connect to the autotransformer wire.
I imagine it's part of the earthing design for the AT system.
Well between Patricroft and Glazebury, there at least 20 of these masts without wire between the insulators and the AT wire.
This may or may not be critical to the "go live" this weekend, but it certainly looks incomplete.
Maybe an OHLE expert can tell us.

Just to add to the sense of progress, during my 5-minute change at Wigan 350 401 rushed though on its test run to Carnforth.

NB The new timetable shows no trains from Liverpool via Huyton on Sundays Jan 5 - May 11.
Nor between Manchester Victoria-Ordsall Lane/Salford Crescent.
No doubt this is to allow daylight electrification work.

 

[DJH1971]

Excavations extend east of the Junction station now, but the nearest concrete is still about half a mile west.

So that explains why the road bridge under the railway (Helena Road) was shut during the last few nights then!

 

[bluenoxid]

If the 319s are to have new ends then I would have thought it might be more useful to fit gangway/vestibule ends rather than just retain end doors. This would facilitate conductor, passengers, catering trolley movement throughout the train when coupled in multiple, a shortcoming of most DMU stock in the North apart from classes 156, 158 and some 150s.

In my view air con is a waste of money and unwelcome. It consumes huge amounts of energy and the ~2 weeks of the year when it is needed it seldom works properly. I would rather open a window.

The advertising wibble does broach the subject of end gangways as an option.

 

[rm88]

Will they run an electric Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service?

 

[DJH1971]

Will they run an electric Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service?

Makes sense to do so, as the Liverpool to Warrington part of the 'triangle' is also getting wired.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Makes sense to do so, as the Liverpool to Warrington part of the 'triangle' is also getting wired.

Some people on here think the Warrington BQ service will be diverted to Manchester Victoria to make 2tph.
I don't suppose anybody's consulted Warrington about it.
It makes very good connections with the London train for St Helens etc.

 

[DJH1971]

Some people on here think the Warrington BQ service will be diverted to Manchester Victoria to make 2tph.
I don't suppose anybody's consulted Warrington about it.
It makes very good connections with the London train for St Helens etc.

And public transport between Warrington to St Helens at present is abysmal enough!

 

[Geeves]

A while ago I had heard that the second train per hour would run in to Bank Quay from Manchester and reverse, then continue onto Liverpool, obviously repeating the same pattern on the way back, truth in it? I have no idea.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A while ago I had heard that the second train per hour would run in to Bank Quay from Manchester and reverse, then continue onto Liverpool, obviously repeating the same pattern on the way back, truth in it? I have no idea.

Well that would be the un-controversial thing to do, but it then wouldn't be much use to through traffic!

Then there's the problem of the orphan peak hour Warrington-Helsby-Ellesmere Port service.
This currently uses the same DMU fleet which forms the Liverpool-Warrington BQ service.
So there might be some ECS DMUs running around after electrification as a result, unless it starts from Chester instead.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think we are likely to get a complete recast of services in the North around 2018/19 or so, there will of course be piecemeal changes every six months or so until then as electrification comes on stream but at the end of it your running basically the former diesel timetable with extra electric services crammed in, its wont be efficent for stock and it wont be efficent for connections.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a very interesting article in the December Modern Railways which analyses the problems with the Phase 1 wiring (page 6-7).
It confirms all the issues which have been raised on here over the last few months, and has photos of the deficient installation.

It also says that Class 92s will not be used for testing.
They will use test coach Mentor, and plan to send a Virgin Pendolino over the line on (it says) November 23 and 25.
The route will then be available to TOCs for training.
Supposedly the wires have been live since November 5.

The article describes issues with recruitment and skills of the wiring team, and says NR has to learn from them to prevent slippage in the wider wiring programme.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Mentor has been up and down today and yesterday.

 

[steverailer]

The article describes issues with recruitment and skills of the wiring team, and says NR has to learn from them to prevent slippage in the wider wiring programme.

Would have put it more down to lack of planning by BB, rushing to get the wires up at all costs by a set date, and cheap wire purchased, than the recruitment and skill of the various wiring teams involved.

Phase 2 and onwards should go better as the legs are going up ready dressed for the wiring. So aslong as better quality wire is used, and planned properly (i.e start from 1 end and finish at the other instead of bits here and there making stitching inbetween twice as hard) the job should be alot easier

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are we likely to see these wires falling down?

 

[D1009]

Are we likely to see these wires falling down?

You would certainly expect so from reading Modern Railways.