Passengers treated just like peasants...

[Tetchytyke]

Legal tender is a bit of a red herring, in that it only relates to payment at court of a court debt.

People entering into transactions are free to specify what they will and won't accept as payment, and what the terms are. However if they are to insist on onerous terms, e.g. no change, then this should be made clear at the time of purchase.

A train company could set up a TVM to say "no change", and this would be fine. But the reputational damage means that they don't.

Bus companies with an exact fare policy usually promote what those fares are, those without exact fare usually don't. I don't mind either, so long as I know in advance how much change I'll need. IIRC bus companies will offer a refund voucher where you have to overpay due to a lack of change, though bus drivers probably don't like issuing them.

One last thing: you still have to use the roadside machines in London where one is present. My local route, the W7, was the trial route for the roadside machines and the drivers are not permitted to sell tickets on board. Cue several recent trips where the bus has stopped several times to allow a passenger to buy a ticket, after several of the machines had failed. I can't wait to see the back of them.

 

[Deerfold]

I've yet to see a bus company that's exact fare only that won't issue a credit note if you overpay - usually to be exchanged at the company's offices somewhere.

 

[Butts]

I've yet to see a bus company that's exact fare only that won't issue a credit note if you overpay - usually to be exchanged at the company's offices somewhere.

I suppose it depends on the amount you have overpaid , and where to draw the line.

If the fare was £1.80 and I only had 2 Pound Coins this would mean I was 20 pence down. However I would view it as my own fault for not having the correct change.

Same would go with a car park machine.

 

[Late Trains uk]

The Machines should also display what denomination the change will be given in prior to the customer accepting to purchase the ticket.
I.e Order Ticket,place money into machine,machine says we can only give you change in 10 x 20p's and 30 10p's. You can then accept or decline.
Alternatively use your cash card.

 

[jon0844]

That seems unnecessary to add. Could you refuse to buy on the account of not being happy with the way the change is given, for example?

At the end of the day, these machines are set to give change - using an initial float and then topped up during the day. They can only give back what they take in, and what's to say someone else hadn't opted to pay in small denominations?

When they can't pay enough back, they go exact money only. Even with loads of coins, it only takes a few people to buy £2 tickets with a £20 note.

I know you can't overpay even if you wanted either. If you did when it was exact money only, it gives an error and dumps all the coins back to you!

 

[talltim]

Trouble with exact fare on buses is that how do you know how much it will be before you get on?

 

[Late Trains uk]

That seems unnecessary to add. Could you refuse to buy on the account of not being happy with the way the change is given, for example?

At the end of the day, these machines are set to give change - using an initial float and then topped up during the day. They can only give back what they take in, and what's to say someone else hadn't opted to pay in small denominations?

When they can't pay enough back, they go exact money only. Even with loads of coins, it only takes a few people to buy £2 tickets with a £20 note.

I know you can't overpay even if you wanted either. If you did when it was exact money only, it gives an error and dumps all the coins back to you!

Like an ATM that has run out of £10 notes it will either offer an alternative (higher/lower amount)or you can cancel the transaction and use an alternative one.
If there was Two machines available at least you would get this option before actually proceeding to complete the transaction if you do not wish too then use a Shop/Pub/ or buy off Guard.
The Machine should know what change it has available as it has to count it.
The problem with Coins is it costs business's money to''Bank it'' and in the Railways case with small denominations not so easy or too pointless to bother redistributing them through it's business's in forms such as in Floats to Conductors(do they have a way for them to give change to them or a Bus Driver?)so they just give them too the passenger
Perhaps it has been programmed by an Ex Conductor where they want Change at the start of a shift and Notes at the finish too it makes it easier to ''cash up''

 

[Late Trains uk]

Trouble with exact fare on buses is that how do you know how much it will be before you get on?

That's a problem with a lot of Bus Drivers and companies.
They just assume everyone travelling is a regular or local,and will be aware of fares and policies and which stop they will need to use.
Many times I have needed to get somewhere by Bus in an unfamiliar City and even though I try to carry as much change that I think will be enough it can often not be which will mean me asking the Driver the Fare and which stop I will need to get off at and if possible tell me when I'm at the required stop all while recounting my change to get to the right amount.
Yet a lot of times they do none of the above and I have to rely on and hoping a Passenger can help.
I often get a blank look that you see more increasingly similar to checkout Girls who get confused if you talk to them who have either got stuck in a routine of only saying what they have been trained to say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That seems unnecessary to add. Could you refuse to buy on the account of not being happy with the way the change is given, for example?

At the end of the day, these machines are set to give change - using an initial float and then topped up during the day. They can only give back what they take in, and what's to say someone else hadn't opted to pay in small denominations?

When they can't pay enough back, they go exact money only. Even with loads of coins, it only takes a few people to buy £2 tickets with a £20 note.

I know you can't overpay even if you wanted either. If you did when it was exact money only, it gives an error and dumps all the coins back to you!

ATM's will tell you what notes are available and whether you wish to take an alternative figure or not and use a different ATM.
If the Ticket Machine tells you that you will get X amount of 5p's,10p's,20p's before you confirm then that will give you the option to either use another machine or Buy On-Train or at destination.
Or perhaps they are programmed to get rid of it's ''shrapnel'' to Passengers rather than having to cart it around themselves when it's emptied.
It has probably been programmed by an Ex Guard who wants to take the change at the start of the Day and lose it at the end when it comes closer to ''cashing up'?

 

[district]

For some reason, the company that collects money at my work give us too many bags of 5ps, which means sometimes you have to get a bit ''creative'' about getting rid of them. Last time I counted a float, I had 237 x 5p coins. A lot of people get very shirty when I give pound coins or lower denominations in change though, but I suppose that's what happens when you pay for a cheeseburger with a £20 note!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Trouble with exact fare on buses is that how do you know how much it will be before you get on?

Agreed. If bus companies didn't keep their fare stage tables so secret perhaps people would have a chance to get the right money together!

 

[Late Trains uk]

For some reason, the company that collects money at my work give us too many bags of 5ps, which means sometimes you have to get a bit ''creative'' about getting rid of them. Last time I counted a float, I had 237 x 5p coins. A lot of people get very shirty when I give pound coins or lower denominations in change though, but I suppose that's what happens when you pay for a cheeseburger with a £20 note!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agreed. If bus companies didn't keep their fare stage tables so secret perhaps people would have a chance to get the right money together!

It costs money for business to change it at the Bank but not the general public.It appears they are just ''passing the Buck or 5p's ''so to speak in more ways than one.

 

[Mojo]

I must be an odd character then as I tend to prefer coins to notes other than £5s. If the place takes American Express then I will always pay with that. If they don't take American Express, then for any small purchases (up to maybe £3 or £4) I will pay with cash, if not I will pay on my Visa debit card. It's extremely infrequent I am in somewhere where I have to spend something over £4 and they don't take cards. The only exception to my 'rules' above is that I will tend to pay in pubs or discotheques that don't take American Express with larger amounts of cash.

 

[Late Trains uk]

I must be an odd character then as I tend to prefer coins to notes other than £5s. If the place takes American Express then I will always pay with that. If they don't take American Express, then for any small purchases (up to maybe £3 or £4) I will pay with cash, if not I will pay on my Visa debit card. It's extremely infrequent I am in somewhere where I have to spend something over £4 and they don't take cards. The only exception to my 'rules' above is that I will tend to pay in pubs or discotheques that don't take American Express with larger amounts of cash.

''Discotheques''?Have you ever been in one since Credit Cards were invented?

 

[Flamingo]

On a similar vein, I once had a chap come up to the buffet first thing in the morning and ask for a coffee. When I told him it was £1.60, he produced a £50 note, picked up the coffee, and said "I'm taking the coffee, I'm offering you payment and if you can't change it I'm entitled to take it free".

I thought a second, said "I can change that sir", took out my second (unopened) £50 float, took £1.60 out of it, and handed the rest over to him -£40 in pound coins, £10 in assorted silver, less £1.60!

He picked it up, said "What do you expect me to do with that?", so I replied "You'd better check it's correct before you leave the counter, mistakes can't be rectified afterwards", and went to serve the next person (with a huge grin on my face)!

 

[90019]

Agreed. If bus companies didn't keep their fare stage tables so secret perhaps people would have a chance to get the right money together!

Our flat fares are displayed quite clearly above the timetable at just about every bus stop we serve (probably all, but there may be a small number without) where I believe it also tells you that no change is given.
There are also posters on plenty of city centre stops which are a guide to using our buses in multiple languages for tourists, which include a part about having the exact fare.

We still get people asking what the fare is and then trying to pay with notes (or occasionally by card). :roll:

 

[TOCDriver]

''Discotheques''?Have you ever been in one since Credit Cards were invented?

LOL I was about to make the same point! Mojo, son - how old are you? lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On a similar vein, I once had a chap come up to the buffet first thing in the morning and ask for a coffee. When I told him it was £1.60, he produced a £50 note, picked up the coffee, and said "I'm taking the coffee, I'm offering you payment and if you can't change it I'm entitled to take it free".

I thought a second, said "I can change that sir", took out my second (unopened) £50 float, took £1.60 out of it, and handed the rest over to him -£40 in pound coins, £10 in assorted silver, less £1.60!

He picked it up, said "What do you expect me to do with that?", so I replied "You'd better check it's correct before you leave the counter, mistakes can't be rectified afterwards", and went to serve the next person (with a huge grin on my face)!

Never know you guards to be the shop service too! Multi-talented or wot! lol

 

[Deerfold]

LOL I was about to make the same point! Mojo, son - how old are you? lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Never know you guards to be the shop service too! Multi-talented or wot! lol

I don't think he remembers before credit cards. Lol.

 

[WillPS]

The Self checkouts at supermarkets have separate hoppers for change and money paid in (both for notes and coins)

Not true of the sort installed widely since about 2010 - I doubt there are very many older ones left in service now. Perhaps the Morrisons/B&Q/IKEA Nixdorf ones are different.

I've yet to see a bus company that's exact fare only that won't issue a credit note if you overpay - usually to be exchanged at the company's offices somewhere.

I've never known NCT to offer one, although that's probably to do with their staff's colossally poor attitude toward their customers.

 

[island]

I understand TfL is consulting on removing the facility to pay cash for bus tickets.

 

[Late Trains uk]

I don't think he remembers before credit cards. Lol.

I would be surprised if he has to pay on a Bus anymore.
How much does the Bus company get per pass?

 

[Deerfold]

Not true of the sort installed widely since about 2010 - I doubt there are very many older ones left in service now. Perhaps the Morrisons/B&Q/IKEA Nixdorf ones are different.
I've never known NCT to offer one, although that's probably to do with their staff's colossally poor attitude toward their customers.

The NCT conditions of carriage at https://www.nctx.co.uk/customer-services/information-centre/terms-conditions-of-carriage/ say:

36. Excess fare receipts are available on request for passengers who are unable to tender the correct fare. The excess fare can be collected from the NCT Travel Centre.

 

[district]

I would be surprised if he has to pay on a Bus anymore.
How much does the Bus company get per pass?

He doesn't pay to travel on most buses, but not for the reason you think.

 

[Flamingo]

LOL I was about to make the same point! Mojo, son - how old are you? lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Never know you guards to be the shop service too! Multi-talented or wot! lol

You would be amazed what I can turn my hand to! I think I was travelling, and was covering the CH having a widdle-break.

 

[pjnathanail]

Not true of the sort installed widely since about 2010 - I doubt there are very many older ones left in service now. Perhaps the Morrisons/B&Q/IKEA Nixdorf ones are different.
I've never known NCT to offer one, although that's probably to do with their staff's colossally poor attitude toward their customers.

I have had one, but it wasn't offered, it was grudgingly given after I requested one.
I only knew about it because I was chatting to an old NCT driver who drove my school route and she told me about it

 

[nomis1066]

Hmmmm, not sure something like that would prompt me to write to the local rag - but he has every right to brassed off at getting his change in such pocket ripping quantity.

I recall in my relief clerical days - working a shift back in NSE days at Tunbridge Wells - a woman very abruptly asking for a £2 single to somewhere or other and slapping a crisp new £50 note onto the turntable. My colleague who had perfectly politely said "That's £2, please" waited a second to see if Madam might just say she was sorry but that was all she had or words to that effect. This was not forthcoming - so the large note was whisked into his hand, exchanged in the float safe for a £50 bag of pound coins from which - in front of her - he took two and then slowly whisked the remaing 48 coins and ticket round to Madam who's manners got even worse.

Whether she felt compelled to write to the local paper, I don't know.

 

[Flamingo]

I've just remembered the two "young gentlemen" on a late train, from their behaviour obviously up to no good, who would not buy tickets until whoever was on the phone to them told them to buy tickets after I threathned BTP. A roll of £20 notes the size of my fist was produced, and one handed over with a smug grin - which was wiped out when I gave the £4.90 change in 5p's (without bag)!

 

[jon0844]

As I said, the change given out from a TVM is what went in. While I'm usually in too much of a rush, I can see why some people might see vending machines as the ideal way to get rid of shrapnel. Have a few people do that, along with a few others paying with £20 notes and you end up with this situation that obviously has some people running to the papers!

 

[FGW_DID]

"First World" problem!

Some more:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...7/First-world-problems-revealed-in-study.html

I don't know what's worse, some idiot going to the local rag because the correct change they received was in a denomination not to their liking or the fact there has been six pages of discussion about it!

 

[quarella]

Familiarity means I don't notice the signs if they exist anymore but most buses (NBC, ex NBC and other large operators) used to have a sign stating "Please tender exact fare." Those commenting that they don't know what the fare is can still make an effort by having a selection of coins and notes available to be able to provide payment in something to make change easy and not just present £20.00 notes. In a staff handbook for a large operator I saw a long time ago there was a section on cash with regard to provision of a float and carrying personal money while on duty.
Many moons ago I sometimes drove a local authority subsidised bus route to a school. The council set the fares and had increased them by a percentage with no rounding up or rounding down so everyday I would have 30+ children presenting me with £1 coins for fares of 34p and 28p. Living in a seaside resort I would go to one of the amusement arcades and stock up on 2p pieces.
Later in life I worked in a large station booking office. I have paid in £200.00 worth of £5.00 notes even after selling some to staff still on duty. Conversely I have seen a similar amount disappear in my last hour of duty and on one occassion did have to give a sealed bag of 5p pieces instead.

 

[Buttsy]

I use the bus infrequently and tend to have a range of notes available and ask if the driver can change it as I never know the fare and am happy to wait if he doesn't have enough change at the time.

I also don't complain when I'm given a lot of change for a note as I view it as 'it's all money in the end'.

 

[dk1]

I use the bus infrequently and tend to have a range of notes available and ask if the driver can change it as I never know the fare and am happy to wait if he doesn't have enough change at the time.

I also don't complain when I'm given a lot of change for a note as I view it as 'it's all money in the end'.

Perhaps I'm a bit anal as if I know I'm getting a bus tomorrow I'm worrying about having the correct fare today. My rucksack is usually well stocked for change at station coffee bars so I rarely have a problem. How I love Oyster though.