Passengers treated just like peasants...

[Crossover]

Well, you'd expect this headline to be some of the usual whinge about rubbish trains, high fares or what not....but no....

My Mum just pointed out to me that the local paper (Reporter Series) has a 1/4 page of the "letters" section devoted to the below drivel...

http://www.dewsburyreporter.co.uk/news/your-letters/passengers-treated-just-like-peasants-1-6086725

I would like to bring this to your attention.

Having left Kirklees College (Huddersfield) on Wednesday September 18, I went for the 21:15 train to Dewsbury.

Before this I purchased a ticket from the machine on Huddersfield station. The price was £2.70.

I put into the machine a 10 pound note.

At first I thought that I had hit the jackpot, as there was a clattering of coins.

It gave me my change in 10ps – all £7.30 of it.

This forced me to go to the bank in Dewsbury as I was conscious that nobody (especially those who work for Arriva, which is due to their management or lack of it) would accept anybody paying in 10ps.

It is disgusting that the peasants (normal people) should have to put up with this.

We do not have a bus link from Huddersfield to Cleckheaton at this time in the evening; indeed they seem to stop around 6pm.

So those of us who have to make the journey via Dewsbury are now being punished by having to carry such a silly amount of change on us.

As well as this there is a good half hour wait in Dewsbury, not good if you are a vulnerable person. Not that you at Metro seem to care about that.

As long as you are paid by the tax payer then sod those peasants on their pleb vehicles.

Not that you ever seen anybody use public transport who works for Metro or the PTE...

Far from it, it would be below them to do so. They just want paying, end of.

It just proves where we are as a nation, not only with transport issues, but everything.

From pleb of a peasant (one of those great unwashed dirty people) as Metro and the PTE see us.

Reading it, I expected it to be a moan about not actually getting the right change, but seemingly just about picking a machine that had little left but 10p's.....some people :roll:

 

[tsr]

Oh, for goodness' sake. Complaining about heightened vulnerability caused by carrying exactly the same amount of change as they would otherwise have done, simply in different (but legal) denominations of coins to what they expected?

And how exactly does that prove "where we are as a nation [with] everything?"

Deary me, if this person thinks that the collapse of all UK/Great British/English society is near because the peasants (which they gladly number themselves amongst) cannot expect a certain variation in the coinage provided by an automatic machine as change... well.

/rant

Drivel indeed!

 

[Morden Via CHX]

At first I thought that I had hit the jackpot, as there was a clattering of coins.

Cannot stop laughing

 

[Shimbleshanks]

The guy's got a good point - who wants to carry half a ton of change around just because some railway company can't be bothered to sort out their ticket machines? It's this sort of attitude to customer service that has made us a nation of car drivers...

 

[Crossover]

The guy's got a good point - who wants to carry half a ton of change around just because some railway company can't be bothered to sort out their ticket machines? It's this sort of attitude to customer service that has made us a nation of car drivers...

It's hardly the end of the world though. I got change from a machine in Sainsburys Local at Man Picc in more 2p's than I would have liked (by "more" I mean getting any at all) the other week, but these things happen

 

[maniacmartin]

What did he want the machine to do if it had ran out of larger denominations? Issue no change? Issue a voucher for the change? Not sell any tickets at all? He could always have paid by card, a handy side-effect being no annoying shrapnell

Also, what's with the random characters on the end of the original article?

 

[Crossover]

What did he want the machine to do if it had ran out of larger denominations? Issue no change? Issue a voucher for the change? Not sell any tickets at all? He could always have paid by card, a hand side-effect being no annoying shrapnell

Also, what's with the random characters on the end of the original article?

Exactly! It is amazing that once you put such a situation back on someone (i.e. asking them what they'd do to resolve an issue) that they go very quiet!

As for the random characters, I'm not sure...somethings clearly gone a bit awry on the site!

The picture was also in the printed article btw...the caption on that had me laughing! "Automated ticket machine"....at least they got a picture that fits, not a SWT one :P

 

[Flamingo]

Some people would whing if their arrse was on fire and you peed on them to put it out. I'd hate to see them if they ever had to face a real problem or crisis.

 

[dk1]

Some people would whing if their arrse was on fire and you peed on them to put it out. I'd hate to see them if they ever had to face a real problem or crisis.

 

[quarella]

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

Legal Tender Guidelines

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

The amounts for legal tender are stated below.
Notes:

In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount. However, they are not legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Coins:

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

£5 (Crown) - for any amount

£2 - for any amount

£1 - for any amount

50p - for any amount not exceeding £10

25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10

20p - for any amount not exceeding £10

10p - for any amount not exceeding £5

5p - for any amount not exceeding £5

2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

Some valid points are lost through the style of his rant. Vending machines do seem to be set up to pay out the low volume coins first so they do not fill but 72 10p pieces.

He does have a point regarding the change which, as can be seen above was not given in legal tender nor was the complainant given an option to accept it outside the definition.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say, When going for my morning bacon sarnie, I avoid outlets that I know are going to give me a handful of pound coins as change. These companies seem to have bags full of pound coins available so why can‘t they get some five pound notes (or at the very least some two pound coins).

Ten pounds worth of 10 p‘s must be even more annoying.

 

[tbtc]

The guy's got a good point - who wants to carry half a ton of change around just because some railway company can't be bothered to sort out their ticket machines? It's this sort of attitude to customer service that has made us a nation of car drivers...

The magic thing about these ticket machines is that they can only pay out the coins that someone has put into them.

So, if someone puts in lots of 10ps, is it the rail company's fault (that it pays out 10ps)?

(bear in mind that we don't know what other coins were in the machine)

 

[Lockwood]

My council gave me my council tax change in 20 £1 coins. You know, council tax, something that would normally be paid by notes, so there'd be a lot of notes around to pay back as change.

This was made worse by me wearing my trousers with quite small pockets, so twenty coins made it look like my leg had some bizarre tumour or something.
Off I trundle to the canteen, who could only change £10. I politely declined and tried another desk.
They said to try the canteen. When I pointed out that they couldn't change the full amount, I was told to either put up with it or try the leisure centre across the road.
They were willing to change it, but didn't seem too impressed that the council sent me there for change!


So, it's not just the railways that give annoying change.

The buses round here can give "Change Vouchers". The drivers seem to hate issuing them though.
"Return to Portsmouth."
"That's a twenty. I can't change that, do you have anything else?"
"No."
"I can't give you a ticket, since I can't change that. Get some change and get on the next bus."
"Could you give me a change voucher?"
"You want a change voucher?!"
"I want a ticket so I can travel, and if that's the only way to get one..."

 

[315804]

My council gave me my council tax change in 20 £1 coins. You know, council tax, something that would normally be paid by notes, so there'd be a lot of notes around to pay back as change.

This was made worse by me wearing my trousers with quite small pockets, so twenty coins made it look like my leg had some bizarre tumour or something.
Off I trundle to the canteen, who could only change £10. I politely declined and tried another desk.
They said to try the canteen. When I pointed out that they couldn't change the full amount, I was told to either put up with it or try the leisure centre across the road.
They were willing to change it, but didn't seem too impressed that the council sent me there for change!


So, it's not just the railways that give annoying change.

The buses round here can give "Change Vouchers". The drivers seem to hate issuing them though.
"Return to Portsmouth."
"That's a twenty. I can't change that, do you have anything else?"
"No."
"I can't give you a ticket, since I can't change that. Get some change and get on the next bus."
"Could you give me a change voucher?"
"You want a change voucher?!"
"I want a ticket so I can travel, and if that's the only way to get one..."

I've been ordered off many a London bus because the driver cannot wait to have my pay cash (everything is Oyster or debit card now)

 

[AndyHudds]

Think the letter makes a valid point, although their style of complaint is ridiculous and over the top. Self service machines in supermarkets give notes in their change, so why can't the fast ticket machines give notes in any change needed to be given? I wouldn't have thought that the machine didn't have any notes available, unless it had been emptied, so yeah the original complaint is valid in my opinion. It does put me off using the machines unless I have the correct change, as no matter what time of day you use them they always seem to give you a pocketful of change.

 

[yorksrob]

Buses are another one.

The times I‘ve had the excuse "I've just started so I can‘t change a tenner". If they've just come on shift their depot should have provided them with enough change to do their job. After all, it's not as though I've tried to pay in martian groats.

If they're not organised enough to have change, they should have to convey the passenger for free (That might persuade them to be more organised in future).

 

[AndyHudds]

Buses are another one.

The times I‘ve had the excuse "I've just started so I can‘t change a tenner". If they've just come on shift their depot should have provided them with enough change to do their job. After all, it's not as though I've tried to pay in martian groats.

If they're not organised enough to have change, they should have to convey the passenger for free (That might persuade them to be more organised in future).

That's another bug bear of mine, bus drivers rolling their eyes at notes. Its common now to pay in notes for everything and to be honest most tickets bought on buses now constitute using notes they are that pricey.

 

[EM2]

Think the letter makes a valid point, although their style of complaint is ridiculous and over the top. Self service machines in supermarkets give notes in their change...

Except when they don't and you end up with £4.80 in twenty-pence pieces, as happened to me recently.
Not quite as big a problem as in the article, admittedly.

 

[yorksrob]

That's another bug bear of mine, bus drivers rolling their eyes at notes. Its common now to pay in notes for everything and to be honest most tickets bought on buses now constitute using notes they are that pricey.

Indeed. Considering most fares tend to be over a pound nowadays, they should be geared up for payment with notes.

 

[trentside]

Am I the only one who is slightly sceptical about this?

If there aren't sufficient £1 coins in a TVM to change a note, then it goes out of service. I must admit that I don't work with FastTicket machines, and only have experience of S&B TVMs, but I'd imagine they are the same. Can someone clarify on this point?

 

[dzug2]

I've been ordered off many a London bus because the driver cannot wait to have my pay cash (everything is Oyster or debit card now)

Well no - in central London you are supposed to buy from the ticket machine at the stop - no cash taken on the bus. And no change given at the machine - not even combining two tickets

Outside the central area the same bus happily takes cash

 

[maniacmartin]

Pound coins are really useful to collect. Having a load of then makes it easier to divide the bill at Forum Meals, when everyone wants to only pay their £9 share but only have a £10 note.

Regarding legal tender, I'm sure most staff would happily change the 10p pieces into legal tender if the situation was explained to them

 

[34D]

I think I know what caused this.... I drive buses (sometimes), and always have more coins than I'd like (passengers paying by notes are very welcome on my bus).

Anyway, to get rid of some of my excess coins, I often pay for a £20 grocery shop with 5p 10p and 20p coins (into the self checkout machines) and for an £80 petrol station forecourt bill with £1 coins.

So I suspect this 'problem' has been caused by people who's job includes cash, getting rid of their low value coins in an automated machine. Doesn't excuse the machine not being emptied or topped up as appropriate though.

 

[jon0844]

A TVM has only got limited space for hoppers to provide change, and at some point coins need to be directed down to a more secure cash box for obvious reasons.

I have no idea how many people pay with £2 coins, so if you wanted to try and ensure you could give change for most ticket prices, it would make sense to stock the hoppers with £1 and 10p coins (are there many 5p fares?). And of course it makes a difference as to what people put in the machine to keep the hoppers topped up. I don't know how many hoppers there are, but I doubt every coin could be stored.

I guess having a way to dispense notes is also another security risk, as well as ensuring reliability. A TVM isn't an ATM, and would have to work a way to give out notes that have been put in by someone else - not having been nicely (in theory) loaded by staff earlier.

If a TVM suddenly had loads of notes up top to give back, they'd surely become a huge target for thieves - even in broad daylight! I assume that currently notes are taken in and stored in something that is designed to be hard to break into - just like coins drop down.

To be honest, the letter above is laughable as the alternative was to not be able to give change and go for exact money only, or card only. Or, simply take the money and not give change at all - which I believe is legal.

 

[starrymarkb]

The Self checkouts at supermarkets have separate hoppers for change and money paid in (both for notes and coins)

I suspect the machines phone home when they are running low on change. But it may be a couple of hours before the machine can be replenished (depending on location/change availability)

 

[BestWestern]

That's another bug bear of mine, bus drivers rolling their eyes at notes. Its common now to pay in notes for everything and to be honest most tickets bought on buses now constitute using notes they are that pricey.

Indeed. Considering most fares tend to be over a pound nowadays, they should be geared up for payment with notes.

The problem is though that a bus driver can only carry so much change. Bear in mind that the loaded coin changer has to be carried around every time you leave a vehicle, along with everything else in your kit bag, and it isn't particularly light. There's a security issue in carrying cash above your company float, as if you mugged by some scroat whilst stood at a desolate bus stop waiting for your next handover, you're unlikely to be reimbursed for your own cash. Looking at it from a driver's point of view, when somebody gets on with a tenner (or more) for a fare of a couple of quid when they've spent 10 minutes stood waiting at the bus stop next to umpteen shops, all with copious amounts of change locked away in their safes, it does get a little tedious!

 

[jon0844]

Issuing a credit note seems like a fair solution, which many bus operators appear to offer.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The guy's got a good point - who wants to carry half a ton of change around just because some railway company can't be bothered to sort out their ticket machines? It's this sort of attitude to customer service that has made us a nation of car drivers...

If he is at the back of a queue of passengers all of whom have paid with a £20 note for a £2 fare, how much change do you reckon the ticket machine is going to have left? Multiply this throughout the day and its going to be more likely (but even still an extreme case) of this happening.

Paytrain guards can regularly run out of money because of people just thrusting £20 notes at them for low denomination fares, once you run out of £5 and £10 notes then your loose change can rapidly vanish leaving you to hand out change in any denomination you can.

Regular commuters are usually the best as they will have the exact fare for two reasons. 1) Its quicker for them and 2) its quicker for the guard. Speed being essential especially where they are getting off at a barriered station as it prevents having to queue at the station to get out.

He does have a point regarding the change which, as can be seen above was not given in legal tender nor was the complainant given an option to accept it outside the definition.

What makes you think you're obliged to receive change, especially if you start refusing it because its "not legal tender"? Change is a privilege, not a right.

 

[455driver]

If they're not organised enough to have change, they should have to convey the passenger for free (That might persuade them to be more organised in future).

Or if the passenger is refused entry it might persuade them to get organised in future and carry some change.

As an ex bus driver it never ceases to amaze me how many people will go shopping all day and then get on the bus with a £10 note (for a £1.20 fare) because they got rid of all their change in town, we were issued with a £20 float (max fare at the time was £3.50 return but most people just got singles) and 1 or 2 divvies getting on with large notes would wipe it out, is that the fault of the drivers or the fault of the passengers that cannot get themselves organised when they know they are catching a bus.

In our house we have a pot near the front door which we put all our coins in, if we think we are going to need some change we grab a handful on the way out and then when we get home we put the change back in, its called being organised, something a lot of people struggle with these days and then rant and moan about how poorly treated they are! :roll:

 

[Andrewlong]

Think yourself lucky that you can get change when buying a bus fare. Here in Reading, it's exact fares only. Not fair on the unaware traveller but that's how it's done.

My other thought was do ticket machines give out notes in change? I'd you put in a large denomination note for a small fare, what else do you expect ?