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BTP launch appeal after "abhorrent" attack on train driver
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Why? Whoever "they" are, I agree with them, and I served in the Armed Forces.Judging by some of the posts made, I doubt they are in Law Enforcement or the Armed Forces
But since "they" appear to be anyone not in possession of a Priv card. I'm probably still one of "them"
Good opinion, I do not have a problem debating anything (I can even be grown up when I need to be
) but all has done is state that this, that and the other doesnt work without coming up with any alternative.Any fool can criticize like that cant they.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You dont say, I never worked that out! :roll:
Good opinion, I do not have a problem debating anything (I can even be grown up when I need to be
Any fool can criticize like that cant they.--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You dont say, I never worked that out! :roll:
Yes, they can. I've seen your criticism of the Fire Service on another thread.......
Very true, do you consider one fireman wafting a bit of water towards the fire a suitable response?
Nobody seems to want to answer that question either!
The 3 times I have had dealings with the fire service at work they have simply stopped the job completely without any consideration for the railway or the 1000s of people stuck on trains with no power because they have insisted the power is turned off for 3 miles either side of the "incident" and wont hand the site back to the MOM even though the problem (normally a HSCB cover smoking, no fire) is sorted by the railway employees, by the time they turn up, the power is off and the smoke has died down.
If the railway had been allowed to deal with it themselves the lines around the failure could have been opened in 10 minutes but because they took charge it was nearly 2 hours before they reluctantly let the lines re-open after strolling around doing nothing but look important.
So no I dont have a very high opinion of them.
Nobody seems to want to answer that question either!
The 3 times I have had dealings with the fire service at work they have simply stopped the job completely without any consideration for the railway or the 1000s of people stuck on trains with no power because they have insisted the power is turned off for 3 miles either side of the "incident" and wont hand the site back to the MOM even though the problem (normally a HSCB cover smoking, no fire) is sorted by the railway employees, by the time they turn up, the power is off and the smoke has died down.
If the railway had been allowed to deal with it themselves the lines around the failure could have been opened in 10 minutes but because they took charge it was nearly 2 hours before they reluctantly let the lines re-open after strolling around doing nothing but look important.
So no I dont have a very high opinion of them.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
Same way the Sun, Mail and Telegraph et al think train drivers are all grossly overpaid.
That is their opinion, everyone is entitled to one.
My opinion of the fire service is based on what I have seen them do.
BestWestern
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And there are thousands of petty criminals, thugs and other warts on the backside of society who I'm sure would share your views...
I'm curious as to how exactly you 'educate' or 'rehabilitate' scum who kick somebody's head in for tackling them when they are causing mindless nuisance to other people? No doubt it's about teaching them 'Respek' for others and all that sort of crap which we already know is laughable. Or do you have a plan that actually works?!
I would have to say I agree that your employment isn't relevant to this discussion. The issues we're putting to rights here affect everybody, not just those of us on the railway!
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Mutant Lemming
Established Member
Might help if we start at the top and work our way down. If you kicked someone with a studded boot in front of thousands of witnesses you would most likely get a custodial sentence, if you are a premier league footballer then you won't. If you speed, drive under the influence and are a football manager or soap star then your loophole lawyer will mean you escape a driving ban even when you have been caught bang to rights. If people faced justice instead of blatantly buying it then people may have a bit more respect for it. A lot of the so called 'role models' from sport, media, music and politics get away with crimes average folk would get locked up for. Not letting the wealthy and privileged get away with crime might send out the right message to others.
If they didn't follow the rules, however arcane the rules might appear, then they'd be in the same position as the guard at James St.
Cant remember the last time a bunch of hoodied professional footballers smacked a train driver round the head, or a bunch of "reality" stars set fire to somebodies house!
Just mentioning it like! :roll:
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No they wouldnt! :roll:
you are just trying to wind me up now, must try harder, yawn.
If they sit back and do nothing (but your house burns down) they have done no wrong, but that isnt what they are there for, in America they are called fire fighters, the clue is in the name.
I respect the view that this is a "public" forum, but threads such as this and "what is the stupidest question you've ever been asked?" builds an impression that passengers are not wanted around here. It does feel, at times, as an industry intranet, where drivers and guards mock passengers at their own expense.
I enjoy discussing many different things on this forum and hope to engage here as I do on SSC and elsewhere. It's just this forum retains an atmosphere of "them and us".
This thread specifically underlines that.
I enjoy discussing many different things on this forum and hope to engage here as I do on SSC and elsewhere. It's just this forum retains an atmosphere of "them and us".
This thread specifically underlines that.
jnjkerbin
Member
PR1Berske:1345057 said:
As a non-member of staff, I have to disagree with this. Although there are, occasionally, some tongue in cheek remarks about the public by some staff, generally it's all in good humour, and this is one of the few forums that binds together industry proffessionals, rail enthusiasts, and also the wider travelling public; this is what makes this such a great forum
Back on topic though, IMO, the way to deal with criminals is to stop crimes occuring in the first place; partly by deterrents, yes, but also by stopping people from feeling as though they need/can do it in the first place, by more jobs, more respect for society and better education.
err, no it isn't. That just isn't true. Not at all. Not one little bit.
I'll pick one story I know a little bit about, to demonstrate that it isn't at all true.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10108893.Thugs_jailed_over_attack_on_15_year_old_York_boy/
Megi Rychlikova in the York Press said:
Two people committed an unprovoked assault on a 15 year old boy, who very nearly died as a result of his injuries and was in a coma for months, and what happened to his attackers? one was jailed for 12 months, the other a "a four-month detention and training order". :roll:
That's not taking it "seriously" by any sane definition. The message from our legal system is very clear indeed, and it sends out all the wrong messages. It's sickening.
I created a thread a while ago that, I feel, proved the point. In the poll, only a third disagreed with me and deemed our legal system "fair". Obviously incredibly lucky people not to know anyone who was failed by the legal system! (I hope they remain lucky throughout their lives, but statistically that is unlikely).
In relative terms, York is a really nice place. Yet even we have a big problem with youths doing whatever they want. Such as in this story, where the named scroate, seemed to be "bored" a couple of days before carrying out the assault. No doubt his defence solicitors, paid for by us, will provide the maximum amount of, let's say "spin" that they possibly can, to claim he's really such a lovely person. The courts will fall for it and he'll be out within, what, 12 months if we're lucky? Great!:roll: We also had a boy set on fire this week. They'll get away with that too. Guaranteed.
Now York is a nice place so I shudder to imagine what is going on in other towns and cities that are less fortunate. Must be scary as hell for the victims, knowing there are people who will continue to carry out such acts without a significant deterrent.
I'm firmly with the appalled rail staff on this issue, and I share their concerns that justice will probably not be served. I wish the driver a speedy recovery.
jnjkerbin
Member
yorkie:1345095 said:
This sums up very nicely the way that I and many others see it. One thing though; it's not just appalled rail staff. I'm sure there is also a number of johnny public (including myself) who are also appalled.
CNash
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I do wish this thread hadn't descended into a clash of ideologies. As always, the left-wingers exaggerate the points of the right-wingers, and vice versa - if I didn't know better, I'd think that all liberals believe in letting criminals run free, and all conservatives believe that the death sentence isn't harsh enough!
This lack of balance is what is slowly killing democracy in this country; we're moving rather inexorably towards US-style absolute partisan politics. Our leaders are elected (or not, as the case may be) based on their personalities rather than their policies; general elections focus on party leaders, presidential-style, rather than parties as a whole or on a local level.
But I'm going off at a tangent: the focus of this thread should be the incident at Bat & Ball, and I wish the poor driver a speedy recovery.
This lack of balance is what is slowly killing democracy in this country; we're moving rather inexorably towards US-style absolute partisan politics. Our leaders are elected (or not, as the case may be) based on their personalities rather than their policies; general elections focus on party leaders, presidential-style, rather than parties as a whole or on a local level.
But I'm going off at a tangent: the focus of this thread should be the incident at Bat & Ball, and I wish the poor driver a speedy recovery.
dave55uk
Member
I've read every post on this thread, and as someone has said, people (on here) say such-and-such is wrong but don't say how to correct it. So, in response to the 'short, sharp, shock' suggestion of punishment, how about half a dozen lashes - in public? That'd surely stop the little b@st@rds doing it again (I was going to say stop them going off the rails but I'm feeling serious).
As I said, I'm a firm believer in national service, separate from the regular army to break these bast@rds down and re-build them as better people.
This rule even applies to the jumped up rail staff that I encounter regularly. Not to saw that I am jumped up myself? I would love to see some of the rude, arrogant and poor guards, rpi's and drivers put through their paces. They would certainly appreciate their job more
This rule even applies to the jumped up rail staff that I encounter regularly. Not to saw that I am jumped up myself
? I would love to see some of the rude, arrogant and poor guards, rpi's and drivers put through their paces. They would certainly appreciate their job moreI think most sensible people sit more in the middle and accept different punishments to fit the crimes, with rewards and second chances for those that genuinely do want to make good.
The short sharp shock treatment I suggested was not lashes or anything like that and who mentioned the death penalty? I quite liked the idea mentioned here of a few days inside as a taste of what life might be like. It won't kill anyone but is probably better than a lot of other non-custodial sentences and second, third, fourth chances etc.
The short sharp shock treatment I suggested was not lashes or anything like that and who mentioned the death penalty? I quite liked the idea mentioned here of a few days inside as a taste of what life might be like. It won't kill anyone but is probably better than a lot of other non-custodial sentences and second, third, fourth chances etc.
BestWestern
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^^What he said.
Who done that then?
Terrible attack and I do hope the thugs that are found get punished correctly. Unfortunatly I personally find it quite abhorrent to keep bringing up the Merseyrail guard situation as some sort of comparison with such incidents.
These thugs will be charged under a differrent charge to that guard so there is no real comparison with the sentence they may get, if caught, to the one that the guard got.Some people appear to have forgotten that.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I have spent some considerable amount of time reading every single post on this thread. I will just refer to one specific matter that was raised earlier in the thread, with regard to the subject of DOO.
The train driver was assaulted by the youths. Would an extra member of train staff have been a deterrent at the unmanned station of Bat and Ball or would it have been that extra staff member who was then assaulted ? Just an observation.
Incidentally, does anyone remember the case of Gary Newlove from Warrington who was murdered by a group of youths in August 2007, just because he went to remonstrate with them for vandalising his car that was parked outside of his house ? I think that his widow became something of a campaigner for certain matters appertaining to this.
The train driver was assaulted by the youths. Would an extra member of train staff have been a deterrent at the unmanned station of Bat and Ball or would it have been that extra staff member who was then assaulted ? Just an observation.
Incidentally, does anyone remember the case of Gary Newlove from Warrington who was murdered by a group of youths in August 2007, just because he went to remonstrate with them for vandalising his car that was parked outside of his house ? I think that his widow became something of a campaigner for certain matters appertaining to this.
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Temple Meads
Established Member
I was also wondering this, and believe that the latter probably would've occurred unfortunately, at any rate, I wish the driver a full and speedy recovery!
All I'm going to say with regards to the pointless circular argument, is that this forum has been developing into a stage for railway staff to rip apart passengers lately and it isn't nice to observe, I admire the work railway staff do, particularly in safety critical roles, but it doesn't give you the right to belittle non rail staff.
Oh and "that" incident with the poor young lady (and the poor guard as a matter of fact) in the Merseyrail area doesn't need to be mentioned in every other thread, it was a horrible incident for everyone, and needs to be put to bed.
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the sniper
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You poor sod!
Impossible to say, but in the cases I know of where a driver has been verbally/physically assaulted the Guard has come to the aid of the driver where possible. In the last case I know of (they're pretty rare tbh) the guard and some passengers helped detain the drunk who'd assaulted the driver. Of course it depends on the confidence/foolhardiness of the other member of staff. I've only had my driver being verbally assaulted once, by three 'yoofs'. I shan't detail how we dealt with the situation, but we certainly had the last laugh. I think they thought the train was DOO, as they were pretty shocked to see/hear me.
It works both ways though. If you have a passcom pulled of a night time and come into a station or are emptying the train at the end of the night for an ECS move the driver will normally 'have your back' rather than just jumping in their cab, as they're entitled to do.
From my experiences, I really wouldn't fancy being a driver on a DOO service. I've never had any real trouble during my time on the railway as a Guard, but I've certainly had instances where it's been good to know that you've got the driver to back you up.
Anon Mouse
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and with no responsibility for being drunk, under the influence of drugs and messing around on the train? Yes the Guard did make a mistake of judgement but, if that lass was not intoxicated and acting the fool then she would still be alive today and the Guard will still have his liberty. Take that link yesterday of those teenagers grabbing onto a passing HST at Kingussie, what if they got dragged under the train who would be blamed? Knowing the way things are in this Country probably the Guard, Dispatcher and Bog Cleaner would be sent down and the big nasty railway to blame for another teenagers 'thrillseeking'
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
With regard to groups of youths who seem to regard themselves as unaffected by the law, this is nothing new. In the 1880-1895 period in the inner-city areas of Manchester, the areas of Ancoats and Harpurhey had organised groups of youths aged between 14 and 19 and the mayhem caused by them was locally referred to as "scuttling". Everyone was in fear of these youths in those days, the police seemed helpless and nothing was done.
In the words of one of the social reformers resident in Manchester in 1892, the reasons given by him in an article that he wrote for the Manchester Guardian for the attitudes of these youths was....
"Lack of parental control, lack of discipline in schools, base literature such as the "Penny Dreadfuls" and the monotony of life in the Manchester slums"..
Does that comment, made over 100 years ago, ring any bells in 2013 ? Just making a historical connection that spans over one hundred years.
In the words of one of the social reformers resident in Manchester in 1892, the reasons given by him in an article that he wrote for the Manchester Guardian for the attitudes of these youths was....
"Lack of parental control, lack of discipline in schools, base literature such as the "Penny Dreadfuls" and the monotony of life in the Manchester slums"..
Does that comment, made over 100 years ago, ring any bells in 2013 ? Just making a historical connection that spans over one hundred years.
Let's hope the driver makes a speedy recovery.
Seconded.
Remember, history in the main is cyclical.
Once we were tough on crime then over time more & more people thought that we had become too harsh so agitated for a relaxation in the laws.
Then we were soft on crime then over time more & more people thought that we had become too lenient so agitated for a tightening of the laws.
ad infinitum...........
NB the above statements are very simple but do illustrate a valid point. Of course on top of the cyclical nature of history we have to overlay the technological progress of man and any cataclysmic events that have affected mankind in the various parts of the world.
Now I repeat my opening statement "let's hope the driver makes a speedy recovery". I feel that this thread should concentrate on that. I am off to start a topic "Tough on Crime: Tough on the Causes of Crime" in the General Discussion forum.
Seconded.
Remember, history in the main is cyclical.
Once we were tough on crime then over time more & more people thought that we had become too harsh so agitated for a relaxation in the laws.
Then we were soft on crime then over time more & more people thought that we had become too lenient so agitated for a tightening of the laws.
ad infinitum...........
NB the above statements are very simple but do illustrate a valid point. Of course on top of the cyclical nature of history we have to overlay the technological progress of man and any cataclysmic events that have affected mankind in the various parts of the world.
Now I repeat my opening statement "let's hope the driver makes a speedy recovery". I feel that this thread should concentrate on that. I am off to start a topic "Tough on Crime: Tough on the Causes of Crime" in the General Discussion forum.
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Exactly, it will be measured in months will have the word "supended" towards the end of it!
More friendly action from our friendly young model citizens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21180898
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21180898
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