XC enforcing invisible reservations

[Bletchleyite]

Has anyone successfully used TMR on a busy XC service?

I've only ever used it just before departure from the origin (Manc Picc) so as to remove the need to hang around by the train waiting for the doors to be released (but too late to get a regular reservation).

Neil

 

[richw]

I've caught 1M49 every morning this week.
The display hasn't been working on any day yet, but they have put out printed reservations on ticket stock.

 

[me123]

If the system is that poor, then it'll only take one enthusiastic hacker with a bit of spare time to bring the system to its knees, and deservedly so too.

A bit grandiose. What I think you mean is...

It'll only take one person with a mobile phone and far too much time on their hands to cause minor inconvenience to a handful of people.

 

[Greenback]

It will just lead to confrontation and people sat there with faces like thunder. Not very pleasant.

This is one of the reasons that I dislike the system. It creates more problems than the traditional way of doing things, and the company then expects their staff to sort things out.

According to one of XC TM contacts, the reservation system as a whole, including TMR, is loathed by most employees, but the company insists that it is workable and must remain.

For me it isn't a question of what is fair and what isn't, it's all about what's practical, and what causes unnecessary problems. I find it difficult enough, at times, to get people to move from seats I've had booked for months. I wouldn't be comfortable with trying to do that on reservation I've had for half an hour, so I don't even try to use it on the very rare instances I choose tot ravel on XC. Having said that, I would respect those that do have a TMR if I was ever in the position of unknowingly taken up their seat.

I don't like it, but it exists and it's not right to try and ignore it and create confrontation, disruption and misery for myself and others.

 

[fandroid]

The scale of the problem would be immediately reduced if reservations were charged for, with the exceptions of those using Senior & Disabled Railcards. Those searching for a cheap ticket (ie advance) would shy away from any add-on. There may be scrum on LM trains at Euston but there's an equivalent scrum on reserved services as these 'advancers' wander up and down the carriage with their huge bags, searching for 'their' seats, and getting in the way of us lightly loaded types who are simply searching for any seat! TOCs are dead keen on the 'market'. Why don't they apply it to reservations, rather than applying reverse logic- ie, the less you pay, the greater guarantee of a seat! Charge for 'em. That's what I say!

 

[yorksrob]

The scale of the problem would be immediately reduced if reservations were charged for, with the exceptions of those using Senior & Disabled Railcards. Those searching for a cheap ticket (ie advance) would shy away from any add-on. There may be scrum on LM trains at Euston but there's an equivalent scrum on reserved services as these 'advancers' wander up and down the carriage with their huge bags, searching for 'their' seats, and getting in the way of us lightly loaded types who are simply searching for any seat! TOCs are dead keen on the 'market'. Why don't they apply it to reservations, rather than applying reverse logic- ie, the less you pay, the greater guarantee of a seat! Charge for 'em. That's what I say!

Or just keep them as a perk for those buying expensive flexible fares and charge for the rest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason LM dropped reservations AIUI is that commuters know the platforms, and even though they tend now (not always) not to be announced until they have arrived, there is insufficient time to place them, and the 350s do not have electronic displays so it can't be done on the way into Euston. Thus commuters would take a seat, refuse to move (or even remove and bin the reservation card), and arguments would ensue.

Though I agree a fee should apply for reservations generally - I would say £2 in each direction would be about right. Perhaps £1 could be refunded for cancelling one (or only £1 charged for changing, rather than the full £2), thus freeing up the seat.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or just keep them as a perk for those buying expensive flexible fares and charge for the rest.

Yes, I suppose you could allow a free reservation for holders of Anytime tickets.

Neil

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I suppose you could allow a free reservation for holders of Anytime tickets.

Neil

I regard off-peak as quite expensive on InterCity runs, so I'd probably include those as well.

 

[Starmill]

If you can afford an Anytime Return for an intercity flow you probably don't care about £2 for a reservation!

 

[fandroid]

One other reason for my wanting a return to charges for reservations is the amazingly high no-show rate. I travel a lot on long distance trains, rarely with enough notice (or wish) to reserve. My guess is that 25-30% of reserved seats are not occupied soon after the start station indicated. They do get filled, but only after others have spotted the opportunity. Many of us want the flexibility of catching the first train available. I could reserve 'on spec', but having suffered the no-show syndrome many times, I feel that would be giving someone else, just like me, a hard time. It's time that ATOC did a survey of reservations, to try to get real info on why people reserve, and why they fail to use the reservation. I guess the main answer to the former will be ' the website said I should/could, and as it cost no more, I thought 'why not!'

 

[RailAleFan]

One other reason for my wanting a return to charges for reservations is the amazingly high no-show rate. I travel a lot on long distance trains, rarely with enough notice (or wish) to reserve. My guess is that 25-30% of reserved seats are not occupied soon after the start station indicated. They do get filled, but only after others have spotted the opportunity. Many of us want the flexibility of catching the first train available. I could reserve 'on spec', but having suffered the no-show syndrome many times, I feel that would be giving someone else, just like me, a hard time. It's time that ATOC did a survey of reservations, to try to get real info on why people reserve, and why they fail to use the reservation. I guess the main answer to the former will be ' the website said I should/could, and as it cost no more, I thought 'why not!'

And to the second;

"I got on the train and it was half-empty so I sat where I wanted..."

 

[yorksrob]

One other reason for my wanting a return to charges for reservations is the amazingly high no-show rate. I travel a lot on long distance trains, rarely with enough notice (or wish) to reserve. My guess is that 25-30% of reserved seats are not occupied soon after the start station indicated. They do get filled, but only after others have spotted the opportunity. Many of us want the flexibility of catching the first train available. I could reserve 'on spec', but having suffered the no-show syndrome many times, I feel that would be giving someone else, just like me, a hard time. It's time that ATOC did a survey of reservations, to try to get real info on why people reserve, and why they fail to use the reservation. I guess the main answer to the former will be ' the website said I should/could, and as it cost no more, I thought 'why not!'

I suspect a lot of it has to do with people being given reservations when they neither want nor need one, AP being a prime offender.

 

[sheff1]

It's time that ATOC did a survey of reservations, to try to get real info on why people reserve, and why they fail to use the reservation. I guess the main answer to the former will be ' the website said I should/could, and as it cost no more, I thought 'why not!'

I would go further and say the websites would suggest to the uninitiated that they 'must' reserve a seat. A bit OT, but a surprising number of people seem to think that they must travel on their booked train with an Off Peak/Anytime ticket.

 

[yorksrob]

If you can afford an Anytime Return for an intercity flow you probably don't care about £2 for a reservation!

Fair point, although I suspect that for many, the irritation factor would come into play - "I've just forked out a hundred quid for a train ticket and they're adding extra charges!"

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think people don't take their reserved seat simply because the seat they've been allocated is not what they wanted or asked for. I've lost count of the number of times that I've asked for a window seat only to be given a seat right up against a bulkhead; I'll move if there is absolutely any spare seats anywhere. There is no way on XC or Virgin's websites to demand a seat not by a bulkhead, although MixingDeck websites seem to have "view" has a tickbox option.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you can afford an Anytime Return for an intercity flow you probably don't care about £2 for a reservation!

National Express received a lot of flack for charging £2.50 for seat reservations on East Coast and Greater Anglia. Even though it's not a lot of money it angered a lot of people- having paid £300 for an Anytime ticket, being charged another £5 for a reserved seat upset an awful lot of the business types who buy the high-value tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think people don't take their reserved seat simply because the seat they've been allocated is not what they wanted or asked for. I've lost count of the number of times that I've asked for a window seat only to be given a seat right up against a bulkhead; I'll move if there is absolutely any spare seats anywhere. There is no way on XC or Virgin's websites to demand a seat not by a bulkhead, although MixingDeck websites seem to have "view" has a tickbox option.

The obvious solution to this (while it does cause slightly less efficient use of the seats) is for ATOC to get together and agree a common standard for online seat selection, then this to be implemented for all the booking engines. With decent seating plans including the window positions, which airlines often fall down on.

 

[Flamingo]

The obvious solution to this (while it does cause slightly less efficient use of the seats) is for ATOC to get together and agree a common standard for online seat selection, then this to be implemented for all the booking engines. With decent seating plans including the window positions, which airlines often fall down on.

With the issues facing todays railway including implementing the biggest electrification engineering projects seen by the railway in 100 years, crossrail HS2 et al, while trying to continue running a full service, specify new stock and train staff to work the new trains, do you seriously think that this is anywhere on anybody's to-do list, or even should be? I certainly think that there are many more important things I would expect everybody in positions of responsibility to worry about.

In the real world of the railway, there are real problems that need real people to sort them out in real time. As has been said before Neil, you need to wake up, smell the coffee, and work out what is important and what is a minor irritation, and if you are going to come up with ideas, make them relevant and useful, not just expect to wave your magic wand and say "Let it be so".

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, some TOCs think this makes business sense and have done this commercially. Why do you dismiss it?

 

[timbo58]

Only time I ever 'enforced' a non reservation (machine producing the tickets was U/S at Temple meads) was on the 1st Chelt Spa- Padd, approaching Kemble I noticed gent had ignored my polite 'napkin reserved' on a table of 2 (1st).

I asked him to move politely and he said 'why should I? -it wasnt reserved correctly'
I very quietly and gently pointed to a couple coming through and said 'sotte voce' -becuase one is a member of the royal family and the other one is an armed police officer.

He moved.


Otherwise I agree that reservations cannot possibly be enforced, I did take great offence if I had placed the reservations slips myself (not a job I liked at all) and they were deliberately removed and made it quite clear on more than one occasion (loudly) that there was a £200 fine and I would do my damnedest to make sure it was enforced if anyone could tell me who had removed the seat label!

Never happened sadly.

 

[Flamingo]

So, some TOCs think this makes business sense and have done this commercially. Why do you dismiss it?

I dismiss the idea that ATOC should be wasting their time divising and programming a common reservation system across the myriad of rolling stock types and layouts that are currently in service. It would be nice, but there are more important things out there for all TOC's to concentrate on, and occupying their minds, than this idea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I dismiss the idea that ATOC should be wasting their time divising and programming a common reservation system across the myriad of rolling stock types and layouts that are currently in service

ATOS have already done that, their Mixing Deck software allows you to select "view" when booking a seat- providing the TOC marks which seats in a carriage have a restricted view. On 220/221/390 the operators have done this. On other trains they have not.

It's hardly re-inventing the wheel...

 

[Justin Smith]

The scale of the problem would be immediately reduced if reservations were charged for, with the exceptions of those using Senior & Disabled Railcards. Those searching for a cheap ticket (ie advance) would shy away from any add-on. There may be scrum on LM trains at Euston but there's an equivalent scrum on reserved services as these 'advancers' wander up and down the carriage with their huge bags, searching for 'their' seats, and getting in the way of us lightly loaded types who are simply searching for any seat! TOCs are dead keen on the 'market'. Why don't they apply it to reservations, rather than applying reverse logic- ie, the less you pay, the greater guarantee of a seat! Charge for 'em. That's what I say!

Now that`s an interesting idea.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The obvious solution to this (while it does cause slightly less efficient use of the seats) is for ATOC to get together and agree a common standard for online seat selection, then this to be implemented for all the booking engines. With decent seating plans including the window positions, which airlines often fall down on.

Personally I hate claustrophobic Pendolinos with their small windows and massive window pillars (though they`ve actually got reasonable leg room), but if the popularity of train travel on the routes they operate on is anything to go by the great British public obviously don`t seem that bothered about a restricted view out of the window. That is to say how fussed are most of them about which seat they get ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With the issues facing todays railway including implementing the biggest electrification engineering projects seen by the railway in 100 years, crossrail HS2 et al, while trying to continue running a full service, specify new stock and train staff to work the new trains, do you seriously think that this is anywhere on anybody's to-do list, or even should be? I certainly think that there are many more important things I would expect everybody in positions of responsibility to worry about.

In the real world of the railway, there are real problems that need real people to sort them out in real time. As has been said before Neil, you need to wake up, smell the coffee, and work out what is important and what is a minor irritation, and if you are going to come up with ideas, make them relevant and useful, not just expect to wave your magic wand and say "Let it be so".

The point is that just because something is a "minor" irritation* doesn`t necessarily mean nothing should be done about it if the amount of work required to sort it is relatively small. Which, compared to electrifying 100s of miles of railway, it is.

* One mans` "minor irritation" is often another mans` "it makes me very p****d off".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that`s an interesting idea.....

Charge for them yes. I'm not a fan of Advance tickets without reservations at all, as you have no choice of "this train is too full, I'll get the next one".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The point is that just because something is a "minor" irritation* doesn`t necessarily mean nothing should be done about it if the amount of work required to sort it is relatively small. Which, compared to electrifying 100s of miles of railway, it is.

Indeed.

NRS already has a list of reservable seats on any given train. It isn't a significant IT problem to take that one step further and have a clickable image of the coach layout. Indeed as I mentioned, some TOCs do it - I've used that facility on XC, and I think East Coast do or did at some point.

Being able to ensure your choice of a seat without either a scrum or having to turn up right at the start of check-in is a nicety that may attract more people to rail travel and stop them thinking it's backward compared to air, which has had that kind of feature for years (even all the budget airlines now have it too).

 

[talltim]

Or, of course, before you get on the train? I can't imagine that many people travelling with XC don't know what train they're catching 10 minutes before it arrives!

I do. I use XC for my commute, as one of 5 trains an hour. I just turn up and catch the next train, 1 in 5 chance of it being XC.
Mind you, for a 15 minute journey I normally just stand anyway

 

[bradders1983]

Didnt want to start a new thread, but are there some trains/journeys where the text reservation system doesnt apply?

This morning I tried to reserve a seat on the 1711 out of Leeds and it replied saying no reservations available. Is this because the train is full or just blocked out due to it being a peak train out of Leeds?

Had no issue with doing it on the 1640, came straight back with a seat.

 

[Starmill]

Didnt want to start a new thread, but are there some trains/journeys where the text reservation system doesnt apply?

This morning I tried to reserve a seat on the 1711 out of Leeds and it replied saying no reservations available. Is this because the train is full or just blocked out due to it being a peak train out of Leeds?

Had no issue with doing it on the 1640, came straight back with a seat.

It's because it is broken.

 

[bradders1983]

It's because it is broken.

In what way? Dont want to read the entire thread! it works for some journeys but not others?

 

[SamS]

Didnt want to start a new thread, but are there some trains/journeys where the text reservation system doesnt apply?

This morning I tried to reserve a seat on the 1711 out of Leeds and it replied saying no reservations available. Is this because the train is full or just blocked out due to it being a peak train out of Leeds?

Had no issue with doing it on the 1640, came straight back with a seat.

That usually means that the train is full of normal reservations. On peak time XC services this is entirely possible - the 07:43 from York was often full (or at least became full at Leeds), one day there were only 2 seat left on the train when I booked the night before.

 

[Starmill]

In what way? Dont want to read the entire thread! it works for some journeys but not others?

Apologies, I misunderstood your question. It might be broken, as it was in the case recently where I tried to make a reservation but couldn't - I found out why when it arrived, it was a booked HST worked by a Voyager. The different seat numbers and lack of coach G meant that all of the reservations were cancelled, so they didn't take any TMRs. It could be possible that they know the reservation system on a Voyager has failed, and have accordingly ditched it but it's far more likely that there aren't any seats left!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Charge for them yes. I'm not a fan of Advance tickets without reservations at all, as you have no choice of "this train is too full, I'll get the next one".

You do if it is too full to physically board - in my view you should be accomodated on the fastest available alternative service(s) to your destination (regardless of operator etc.) where that is the case. However I do take your point, and I have been unable to board a train for which I had an advance for in the past due to it being half-formed and was not afraid to just travel on the next train, but recognise many people would be somewhat scared of that. I don't think there's actually protection for this eventuality in the passenger's charters or Conditions of Carriage either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do if it is too full to physically board - in my view you should be accomodated on the fastest available alternative service(s) to your destination (regardless of operator etc.) where that is the case. However I do take your point, and I have been unable to board a train for which I had an advance for in the past due to it being half-formed and was not afraid to just travel on the next train, but recognise many people would be somewhat scared of that. I don't think there's actually protection for this eventuality in the passenger's charters or Conditions of Carriage either!

I don't so much mean that as that I've (on a flexible ticket) let trains go because I wouldn't get a seat, not because they were full and standing.

On one occasion that was because I couldn't get a TMR so concluded it was too busy.