XC enforcing invisible reservations

[yorksrob]

Or ditch the whole stupid idea and either reserve your place before the train sets out or find a seat when you get there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the system is that poor, then it'll only take one enthusiastic hacker with a bit of spare time to bring the system to its knees, and deservedly so too.

It wouldn't be hard to write a script to send a load of text messages to reserve every TMR seat on a train. I'd imagine, however, that they have thought of that, and would block above a certain number of reservations from a given mobile number for a given train.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or ditch the whole stupid idea and either reserve your place before the train sets out or find a seat when you get there.

While I don't advocate full compulsory reservations (i.e. no standing), that concept (which is only one step up from TMR) does seem to work well in many countries. Might even be most?

Neil

 

[yorksrob]

It wouldn't be hard to write a script to send a load of text messages to reserve every TMR seat on a train. I'd imagine, however, that they have thought of that, and would block above a certain number of reservations from a given mobile number for a given train.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


While I don't advocate full compulsory reservations (i.e. no standing), that concept (which is only one step up from TMR) does seem to work well in many countries. Might even be most?

Neil

Really? I'd be very surprised if the majority of countries with passenger railways opted towards systems of full reservations.

Better to stick with what has worked perfectly well here for the past however many decades rather than take a gamble on what other countries might or might not do.

 

[Greenback]

The disadvantages of compulsory reservations greatly outweighs ay advantages. Perhaps I'd feel less negative about it if we had longer trains, or double deck trains, like some countries do. I don't think we have the capacity to introduce it here.

Maybe that's why I'm so against TMR, it's because it's only one step away from compulsory reservations! We don't really have the capacity for either system.

 

[talldave]

It wouldn't be hard to write a script to send a load of text messages to reserve every TMR seat on a train. I'd imagine, however, that they have thought of that, and would block above a certain number of reservations from a given mobile number for a given train.

Neil

I think you credit TOCs with more intelligence than they deserve. And anyway I'm sure sender details can be spoofed. Hopefully we'll find out .

 

[davetheguard]

As far as I'm concerned, these 10 minute reservations are just yet another reason to avoid Cross Country's trains wherever possible.....

 

[LowLevel]

It wouldn't be hard to write a script to send a load of text messages to reserve every TMR seat on a train. I'd imagine, however, that they have thought of that, and would block above a certain number of reservations from a given mobile number for a given train.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


While I don't advocate full compulsory reservations (i.e. no standing), that concept (which is only one step up from TMR) does seem to work well in many countries. Might even be most?

Neil

I can't think of many other countries to be fair that run effectively 3 and a bit car trains the length and breadth of the land! Admittedly they also don't have the frequency but as Virgin found to their cost running an 0730, 0800 and 0830 doesn't help if everyone still wants to catch the original 0800 service when you've halved the length.

 

[Senex]

As far as I'm concerned, these 10 minute reservations are just yet another reason to avoid Cross Country's trains wherever possible.....

Agreed one hundred per cent.

 

[Starmill]

Or ditch the whole stupid idea and either reserve your place before the train sets out or find a seat when you get there.

By which you mean elbowing your way through the doors and pushing past everyone? That's the only way you'll get a seat on many of their services without a reservation, paper or text.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By which you mean elbowing your way through the doors and pushing past everyone? That's the only way you'll get a seat on many of their services without a reservation, paper or text.

And that would tend to mean that those most in need of the seats don't get them.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

And that would tend to mean that those most in need of the seats don't get them.

Neil

Precisely. Even if you don't have difficulty getting about, or especially need a seat for some reason, if you have decided to travel same-day and even just have one reasonably sized suitcase, you'll never get a good seat in a Voyager scrum. At least you can sit on your suitcase!

 

[yorksrob]

utilofieye;2111244]By which you mean elbowing your way through the doors and pushing past everyone? That's the only way you'll get a seat on many of their services without a reservation, paper or text.[/QUOTE]

Or waiting your turn and getting to the next available seat. The lack of capacity on XC trains will cause problems and unseemly scrums whatever reservation system you have. Kicking people out of their seats mid journey will just exacerbate a bad situation.

 

[Starmill]

Or waiting your turn and getting to the next available seat.

Which you and I both know in many cases will mean standing until your destination. I have stood for almost 2 hours on a Voyager before now!

The lack of capacity on XC trains will cause problems and unseemly scrums whatever reservation system you have. Kicking people out of their seats mid journey will just exacerbate a bad situation.

We are going around in circles. XC have to work harder than almost everyone else to make best use of capacity, I think everyone acknowledges that. Part of me recognises that the TMR system was a prerequisite to APOD in a way, and that is actually the mean reason they developed it. APOD suits both them and passengers quite well - it must be making them a lot of money. I suspect their efforts are rather more incentivised by that than anything related to seating disputes and availability.

 

[Tetchytyke]

We are going around in circles. XC have to work harder than almost everyone else to make best use of capacity, I think everyone acknowledges that

Definitely.

The TMR has many flaws, but the main flaw that everyone is complaining about is not a flaw. Using a TMR is no different to making any other sort of reservation, and sitting in a TMR seat is no different to sitting in a seat with any other sort of reservation. You might be lucky and keep it or you might be unlucky and get turfed out.

"I was here first" doesn't work when the reservation was made the day before, I genuinely do not see why TMR is any different. The signs are clear and the service is available to all.

The allocation of TMR versus unreservable seating is perhaps wrong; a few more unreservable seats and a few fewer TMR seats wouldn't be a bad thing.

But as we see at Euston every day on London Midland, who don't do reservations at all even on journeys of 2+hours, "I was here first!" just means you get people trampling over each other to be first on the train at a station. The person with the seat is the one who has the sharpest elbows and is most prepared to trample over everyone else; if you have kids or a mobility problem you can forget it. The Euston stampede is downright dangerous, XC trying to get rid of it can only be a good thing.

Unless and until XC get more carriages, there's always going to have to be a compromise. And you'd have to say TMR is better than someone reserving a seat on three or four trains "just in case".

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are going around in circles. XC have to work harder than almost everyone else to make best use of capacity, I think everyone acknowledges that. Part of me recognises that the TMR system was a prerequisite to APOD in a way, and that is actually the mean reason they developed it. APOD suits both them and passengers quite well - it must be making them a lot of money. I suspect their efforts are rather more incentivised by that than anything related to seating disputes and availability.

Possibly so, though both are really experiments that point towards effective compulsory reservations. One side of me wishes they'd just implement that and be done with it, as that's clearly what they are going for...

Neil
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The allocation of TMR versus unreservable seating is perhaps wrong; a few more unreservable seats and a few fewer TMR seats wouldn't be a bad thing.

Yes, I think having the end Standard coach unreserved on all XC trains would make sense.

The Euston stampede is downright dangerous, XC trying to get rid of it can only be a good thing.

The Euston stampede for LM services didn't exist until they stopped advertising platforms in advance. Silverlink even used to have printed posters of all the peak time platforms about the place (they are very consistent, and to be fair most commuters avoid the stampede because they learn what the platforms are). But LM is a commuter/regional operation, and allocated seating will never work on that sort of operation - and countries with compulsory reservations on IC don't tend to have them on regional services - indeed I can't think of a single country that does. Those extra long-distance passengers paying dirt-cheap fares to fill empty seats are all very well for both them and for LM, but they are not and should not be the priority.

The Euston stampede for VT could be solved by having queueing areas a la cheapo airlines. That said, if I arrive at Euston and know I'm getting a particular train by then, it'd be much nicer to saunter over to a machine, insert my ticket, choose my preferred seat on-screen, and then go and sit in the pub, wandering down at my leisure and boarding. Much more relaxing. You could keep a couple of coaches totally unreserved, but otherwise why not? I would be more than happy to pay a couple of quid for the privilege. And if I try to do a "TMR" like this and there aren't any left, I know I'm choosing between almost certainly standing or waiting for another train. I actually did this on XC the first time I used TMR - none left on my preferred train, so I did one on the one an hour later and went for a relaxing meal.

I used to enjoy train travel a lot more in the days of the late 90s when with a few exception trains were quiet. But the railway is ever more popular, and as I get older I'm more and more put-off doing long distance journeys because if I don't reserve I have to get involved in a boarding scrum to get a seat of my choosing, or indeed any seat.

Unless and until XC get more carriages, there's always going to have to be a compromise. And you'd have to say TMR is better than someone reserving a seat on three or four trains "just in case".

I think it could be improved upon, but it is certainly something that makes me, as someone who pretty much only travels walk-up (and thus pays more than those using Advances) more likely to use XC.

Neil

 

[andrewkeith5]

I have just come up with a much better idea. (correction - it's not a very original idea and I'm sure there'll be hundreds on this forum who will gladly demonstrate why it's so much worse than the contentious reservation system currently causing so many disagreements!)

There is clearly a chronic shortage of space on some XC services. So why not make reservations limited only to those who really, really need them - i.e. holders of Senior Railcard and Disabled Persons Railcards. Have a minority of seats preservable (say 1 coach), and nobody else is able to get a reservation. Run a Priority Seating card scheme like Southern which entitles others who are likely to really, actually, need, a seat and allow them to make reservations too.

That, to me, is the only truly fair way of distributing the seating. Everything first come first served, except those entitled to priority seating.

The guard only has to manage reserved seating in one carriage that way, everything else is just like every other commuter service in the country.

There clearly aren't enough seats to go around, so the best option is not to allow anyone who doesn't need it priority.

 

[Justin Smith]

Because the boarding scrum on a busy train is extremely unpleasant, and some of us would actually quite like to be able to reserve later than the day before. But full compulsory reservations would be going a bit far, sometimes the option to stand or change your mind at the last minute has value.

To me, the problem here is not the concept, which I quite like (though I'd rather it offered seat selection as well), and I would even be willing to pay a small fee for it, say £2, if seat selection was offered. The problem is that 4 and 5-car trains are too short for XC, and 3-car ones are too short for TPE. XC really needs 7 or 8-car Voyagers, and TPE needs 5 or 6-car 185s.

Neil

Obviously reservations would not be needed if there were more seats....
But the problem with short notice seat reservations is they are incapable of ascertaining if the seat is already taken.

I agree that the scrum you sometimes get to find a seat is unpleasant, but I have to say I can`t actually think of a fairer way of doing it*, to me it`s imperative that passengers who turn up to board a train without having made a reservation have a decent chance of getting a seat and not discriminated against even more than they are now.

* Possibly if the trains stopped at exactly the correct point and there were orderly queues to get on. Even then you sometimes get another passenger taking so long farting about putting their luggage on the stand whilst you stand behind them watching all the seats being taken. Then, of course, the passenger who has just held everyone up ambles along to their reserved seat....... We`ve all been there I`m sure. But, as Winston Churchill said about Democracy, it`s the worst system, but better than all the alternatives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

* Possibly if the trains stopped at exactly the correct point and there were orderly queues to get on. Even then you sometimes get another passenger taking so long farting about putting their luggage on the stand whilst you stand behind them watching all the seats being taken. Then, of course, the passenger who has just held everyone up ambles along to their reserved seat....... We`ve all been there I`m sure. But, as Winston Churchill said about Democracy, it`s a crap system, but better than all the alternatives.

Is it really?

Let's say TMR had choose-your-seat kiosks added at stations. Go up, insert your ticket, pick a seat.

In what way is "the order you arrive at the station and visit the machine" less fair than "whoever manages to position themselves strategically and barge on as quickly as they can"?

It still maintains a semblance of first come first served. If you want a seat, you could reserve one right up to the time of departure. Why wouldn't you do that? It only leaves those who leg it into the station with less than 5 minutes to spare who would have an issue, and aren't they taking a risk of the train already having arrived and the seats already being gone anyway?

Neil
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I agree that the scrum you sometimes get to find a seat is unpleasant, but I have to say I can`t actually think of a fairer way of doing it*, to me it`s imperative that passengers who turn up to board a train without having made a reservation have a decent chance of getting a seat and not discriminated against even more than they are now.

I fundamentally do not agree with this statement, provided those who turn up to the station on-spec have an easy means of making a reservation on doing so. And I say that as someone who always travels walk-up.

Neil

 

[Justin Smith]

If someone doesn't move out of my reserved seat they'd have sixteen stone of Yorkshireman on their knee.

The trouble with XC is the lack of seating, which is not going to change anytime soon. I think the TMR system is fairer than "I got on first", as everyone has access to it and it doesn't unfairly prejudice those who are less mobile or don't elbow their way to the front of the scrum.

That`s rubbish.

I have to say I`m surprised at the implication from this and other posters that passengers already in seats subsequently "reserved" by someone else just got up and moved. What is wrong with the good old British sense bolshiness and of not wanting to let other people push them around. That`s why we won the war. (In actual fact it is why we won the war, or at least why we didn`t lose it.....)
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As far as I'm concerned, these 10 minute reservations are just yet another reason to avoid Cross Country's trains wherever possible.....

You`re right there, and weren`t they the TOC to ditch Quiet coaches ? Ironically, reading between the lines, I was under the impression they did that to reduce the stress on their staff at having to enforce it. I say ironically because I`d have thought this short notice seat reservation thing would give them a whole load more stress, I certainly wouldn`t move for someone who`d reserved the seat from under my bottom.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Definitely.

The TMR has many flaws, but the main flaw that everyone is complaining about is not a flaw. Using a TMR is no different to making any other sort of reservation, and sitting in a TMR seat is no different to sitting in a seat with any other sort of reservation. You might be lucky and keep it or you might be unlucky and get turfed out.

"I was here first" doesn't work when the reservation was made the day before, I genuinely do not see why TMR is any different. The signs are clear and the service is available to all.

The allocation of TMR versus unreservable seating is perhaps wrong; a few more unreservable seats and a few fewer TMR seats wouldn't be a bad thing.

But as we see at Euston every day on London Midland, who don't do reservations at all even on journeys of 2+hours, "I was here first!" just means you get people trampling over each other to be first on the train at a station. The person with the seat is the one who has the sharpest elbows and is most prepared to trample over everyone else; if you have kids or a mobility problem you can forget it. The Euston stampede is downright dangerous, XC trying to get rid of it can only be a good thing.

Unless and until XC get more carriages, there's always going to have to be a compromise. And you'd have to say TMR is better than someone reserving a seat on three or four trains "just in case".

It`s completely different in that potentially someone else could reserve your seat after you`ve sat in it. Why can you not see that ? The only reservation system that is acceptable is one which clearly shows at the time someone may want to sit in a particular seat exactly when the particular seat is reserved.
The excuse that there a few stickers saying (totally unhelpfully) "this seat may become reserved at some point in the journey" is crap. Of course it wouldn`t be quite so crap if there were a reasonable number of empty seats, but if there were then short notice seat reservations wouldn`t actually be needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ironically, reading between the lines, I was under the impression they did that to reduce the stress on their staff at having to enforce it. I say ironically because I`d have thought this short notice seat reservation thing would give them a whole load more stress

That is a possible issue, indeed. As for quiet coaches, I'd rather people were considerate in ALL coaches, by not shouting into their phone (you can talk at the same volume as if you were talking to someone opposite) and not playing music/DVDs out loud (which, if done to anyone's annoyance, and it certainly annoys me, is a Byelaw offence and I would like to see some prosecutions for it - it's plain rude - use headphones, and if your whole family wants to watch get a splitter - they are very cheap).

I certainly wouldn`t move for someone who`d reserved the seat from under my bottom.

ITYF you would. You *really* wouldn't want me sitting on the seat without you having moved from it first

Neil

 

[Justin Smith]

I used to enjoy train travel a lot more in the days of the late 90s when with a few exception trains were quiet. But the railway is ever more popular, and as I get older I'm more and more put-off doing long distance journeys because if I don't reserve I have to get involved in a boarding scrum to get a seat of my choosing, or indeed any seat.
Neil

We can agree on that. It`s not just the crowding, it`s the noise. These days you can`t get away from it, personal stereos, people watching films on their laptops, people playing noisy computer games etc etc etc. Then there`s the coaches, noisy smelly plasticy Yoyagers or claustrophobic Pendolinos, compared to Mk2 or 3 loco hauled stock. I definitely don`t enjoy train travel as much as I did

 

[Bletchleyite]

We can agree on that. It`s not just the crowding, it`s the noise. These days you can`t get away from it, personal stereos, people watching films on their laptops, people playing noisy computer games etc etc etc. Then there`s the coaches, noisy smelly plasticy Yoyagers or claustrophobic Pendolinos, compared to Mk2 or 3 loco hauled stock. I definitely don`t enjoy train travel as much as I did

The Voyager thing is a funny one. The Meridian is basically the same train. I had a ride on one yesterday, and purely by using different seats and very well-designed mood lighting they have a real luxury feel to them even in Standard.

Neil

 

[Justin Smith]

Incidentally, does anyone know if it`s possible to "reserve" seats on multiple trains ? Particularly if you`ve got more than one mobile phone is there anything to stop someone reserving seats on say three trains then later deciding which one he (or she) will actually catch ? ! ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Incidentally, does anyone know if it`s possible to "reserve" seats on multiple trains ? Particularly if you`ve got more than one mobile phone is there anything to stop someone reserving seats on say three trains then later deciding which one he (or she) will actually catch ? ! ?

I don't know as I've not tried. I imagine it might work but that there is some sort of limit to stop you being silly with it.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

I couldn't tell you, my phone doesn't let me send texts to the number they give!

 

[Justin Smith]

I don't know as I've not tried. I imagine it might work but that there is some sort of limit to stop you being silly with it.

Neil

But if you had more than one mobile how would they know ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you had more than one mobile how would they know ?

They wouldn't. No system is perfect.

Neil

 

[Andyh82]

This will just lead to uncomfortable journeys, imagine evicting the window passenger of a couple because you've just reserved the seat they were sat on, you've then got to spend the next few hours sat next to the still seated half of the couple who's journey you've just disrupted.

Either that or you've just kicked out an old lady, or caused a family to pack away all their kids toys and drawings. It's bad enough when this happens when you've got a reservation already listed on the paper label, never mind a reservation that has just been invented.

It will just lead to confrontation and people sat there with faces like thunder. Not very pleasant.

 

[RailAleFan]

Has anyone successfully used TMR on a busy XC service?

As i mentioned right at the start of this thread, when I used to bother using it the only times it ever worked was when the train was half empty anyway, so it's never actually come to having to boot anybody out of my seat.

So reverse engineering out loud, I'm wondering if the number of TMR seats made available is in proportion to the number of normally reservable seats that are actually reserved - as this should (I would have thought) correlate with how busy a service is likely to be - and the system is saying that if x% of normal reservations are taken up then TMR is not available on that service...

 

[yorksrob]

We are going around in circles. XC have to work harder than almost everyone else to make best use of capacity, I think everyone acknowledges that. Part of me recognises that the TMR system was a prerequisite to APOD in a way, and that is actually the mean reason they developed it. APOD suits both them and passengers quite well - it must be making them a lot of money. I suspect their efforts are rather more incentivised by that than anything related to seating disputes and availability.

To be fair, there is nothing that says that Advanced Purchase has to come with a seat reservation anyway (infact, it would remove a lot of faffing about on a lot of trains if it didn't). It merely has to instruct someone to travel on a particular train and I'm sure that the vast majority of people using AP do so to get an "affordable" fare rather than a seat reservation.

Nevertheless, I fear we shall never agree on this point anyway. Fortunately I can avoid XC on most occasions, and when I can't, I usually have an AP in the traditional way (and whilst I don't like being tied down with AP on such services, at least it will avoid me being turfed out of my seat mid-way !).