XC enforcing invisible reservations

[yorksrob]

There are plenty of unreservable seats in XC- these are identifiable because they don't have an electronic display above them. They're usually at one end of each carriage.

And invariably full of passengers.

 

[Jonfun]

Does the issue of all unreservable seats being occupied not occur on other train operators then?

 

[CC 72100]

Surprise no-one has posted the link yet, so here are the voyager seating plans:

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/285837/voyager_seating_plan.pdf

So, taking a 220, like my train a few weeks back (in theory):

Coach F: All seats reservable as normal.

Coach D: Most seats reservable as normal, 8 seats that are numberless and so will ALWAYS be unreservable.

Coach C: All seats reservable, currently dedicated to the TMR system. 4 seats are numberless and so will ALWAYS be unreservable.

So, if like my train coach D (where possible) and Coach F are fully reserved, then that makes 12 seats which a reservation-less traveler can be guaranteed not to be evicted from.


Coach C - which is all on the TMR system (except from 4 seats) has 64 TMR seats.

So by my maths, 75% of the non-reserved seats (in the conventional way) can be reserved at any point during the journey, with only 12 'safe' seats per train.

The proportion above is what I think is the problem with the current implementation of the system.

 

[yorksrob]

Does the issue of all unreservable seats being occupied not occur on other train operators then?

It probably does, but at least once you find one, it's yours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The proportion above is what I think is the problem with the current implementation of the system.

Yes, I would suggest keeping one Standard coach completely free of reservations. So to me, logic would be that the other two Standard coaches would be reservable either via the normal mechanism *or* if any seats remained available via TMR.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

Yes, I would suggest keeping one Standard coach completely free of reservations. So to me, logic would be that the other two Standard coaches would be reservable either via the normal mechanism *or* if any seats remained available via TMR.

Neil

Leaving one whole coach unreserved would leave XC just 2 coaches on many services to sell advance tickets for, offer reservations to walk-up ticket holders and TMR. Not going to happen!

If only XC had a fleet of all 7/8 car trains. This problem would evaporate. I'm not even convinced there would be much running grossly under capacity, because they could lower their advance fares (currently some of which are very very expensive!) for the quieter bits (e.g. Glasgow - Edinburgh, Plymouth - Penzance).

 

[Senex]

Yes, I would suggest keeping one Standard coach completely free of reservations. So to me, logic would be that the other two Standard coaches would be reservable either via the normal mechanism *or* if any seats remained available via TMR.

What happens in Coach A? All seats are reservable through the normal mechanisms, but how many of the seats not taken up by the start of the journey are then marked as "May be reserved en route" and how many are kept free for walk-on passengers?

This is back to the topic of trains that are too short for their purposes, but more than once I've come across complaints that XC first has been filled up by advance bookings at cheap rates all in reserved seats and there has been no space for full-fare business travellers joining the train at Leeds to head north. I wonder if revenue maximisation is really working as it should.

 

[CC 72100]

Leaving one whole coach unreserved would leave XC just 2 coaches on many services to sell advance tickets for, offer reservations to walk-up ticket holders and TMR. Not going to happen!

Granted, but counter-argument: just 12 seats that are unreserved and will always be?

And yes, customers could reserve seats with the TMR system, but from what I see it is only publicized on the XC website and their printed timetables. People buying on the day at the station are likely to never come into contact with any media, and I don't see any adverts on the train which state

Are you sitting comfortably?

Did you know, that unless you reserve your own seat* that you're currently sitting in, you may be kicked out of it at any point in the journey. Unfortunately, as you cannot see the screen from where you are sat, you won't know when this will happen.

Please see our website for more details.

*You cannot choose your seat and so may have to move and ask somebody else to vacate theirs. Yes, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul but...

 

[Jonfun]

It probably does, but at least once you find one, it's yours.

As I say, it's physically impossible for the unreservable seating on a Voyager to be booked - they don't even have screens. So if you take an unreservable seat, it's yours.

Likewise, coaches F and D often have seats reserved for part journeys, or in some cases not at all. In this situation, if you take one of these, it's yours.

Coach C is reserved for users of the TMR system, and this is made clear. Anyone without a TMR is welcome to use the area providing it isn't needed by a TMR holder.

Look at a TPE 185. I think there's a broadly similar number of unreservable seats in the middle carriage, and probably a broadly similar overall capacity too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Granted, but counter-argument: just 12 seats that are unreserved and will always be?

In terms of proportion, that's no different to East Coast MkIV sets where there are 30 standard seats (coach H) out of 342 which are unreserved.

 

[Mojo]

When I was a regular traveller on XC about 5 years ago or so, on the 5 car Vomiters it used to be the case that there were no reservations in coach B. Is this still the case?

 

[CC 72100]

When I was a regular traveller on XC about 5 years ago or so, on the 5 car Vomiters it used to be the case that there were no reservations in coach B. Is this still the case?

I think so - it would make sense if it was, given that coach B is the 'extra' coach that the 220s don't have.

whether it is unreserved - no reservations at all possible, or unreserved - cannot be reserved conventionally but can by TMR system I'm not sure.

 

[RailAleFan]

Just to add to the confusion, big red stickers now indicating that seats even showing as "Available" may become reserved. This is despite, in the case of the seat from which I took this picture, one seat showing "Available", and the other showing the "May be reserved en route..." message...

"Seats shown as 'Available' in this coach may be reserved during the train's journey. If you don't have a reservation, you may be asked to vacate your seat."

 

[Justin Smith]

I didn't care [whether I kicked someone out of "my" reserved seat when they were already in it].

I think we`re getting to the nub of the type of people who think short notice seat reservations are a good thing.
I can only say you wouldn`t be kicking me out of the seat, even the train manager wouldn`t be, it`d need a British Transport Policeman to explain to me why I should vacate my seat for someone who`d "reserved" it whilst I was already sat in it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I would suggest keeping one Standard coach completely free of reservations. So to me, logic would be that the other two Standard coaches would be reservable either via the normal mechanism *or* if any seats remained available via TMR.

Neil

I would only be in favour of that if the system could know whether the seat was occupied, then it was instant, and then made clear exactly where on the journey the seat was reserved. Even then I`m not entirely comfortable with the idea of short notice seat reservations but I wouldn`t object to them quite so much.

 

[yorksrob]

Look at a TPE 185. I think there's a broadly similar number of unreservable seats in the middle carriage, and probably a broadly similar overall capacity too.

On a TPE the seats are either reserved, in which case I can check the label to see where it's been reserved and choose to avoid accordingly, or it isn't reserved in which case it's mine for as long as I need it. I don't understand why so many on this forum seem so adverse to this time honoured, sensible and easy way of arranging things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a TPE the seats are either reserved, in which case I can check the label to see where it's been reserved and choose to avoid accordingly, or it isn't reserved in which case it's mine for as long as I need it. I don't understand why so many on this forum seem so adverse to this time honoured, sensible and easy way of arranging things.

Because the boarding scrum on a busy train is extremely unpleasant, and some of us would actually quite like to be able to reserve later than the day before. But full compulsory reservations would be going a bit far, sometimes the option to stand or change your mind at the last minute has value.

To me, the problem here is not the concept, which I quite like (though I'd rather it offered seat selection as well), and I would even be willing to pay a small fee for it, say £2, if seat selection was offered. The problem is that 4 and 5-car trains are too short for XC, and 3-car ones are too short for TPE. XC really needs 7 or 8-car Voyagers, and TPE needs 5 or 6-car 185s.

Neil

 

[Failed Unit]

Cheap advance on XC? I have always found their advances more expensive than others.

Example - edinburgh - Leeds. Cheapest option use an East Coast + tpe. Leeds - Bristol, via London.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Easy way to sort out problems with not getting a seat with XC...compulsory reservations should be introduced on all services

 

[yorksrob]

Because the boarding scrum on a busy train is extremely unpleasant, and some of us would actually quite like to be able to reserve later than the day before. But full compulsory reservations would be going a bit far, sometimes the option to stand or change your mind at the last minute has value.

And some of us would rather not have to faff around on a mobile phone just for the privilege of not getting booted out of our seat half way through our journey.

 

[Failed Unit]

To me, the problem here is not the concept, which I quite like (though I'd rather it offered seat selection as well), and I would even be willing to pay a small fee for it, say £2, if seat selection was offered. The problem is that 4 and 5-car trains are too short for XC, and 3-car ones are too short for TPE. XC really needs 7 or 8-car Voyagers, and TPE needs 5 or 6-car 185s.

But would you care if their were lots of seats? When I travel on the WCML, even before Virgin decided to FU, I was happy to walk up the train. Even on FGW you know roughly where to stand to get a seat (even between London and Reading). But equally looking at it the other way if virgin had it and coach FU were for such reservations, the rest of us just wouldn't sit in it.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I watched a young couple turf an elderly lady out of a seat they had reserved under the TMR system, he seemed to be apologising for doing it quite a lot, something which annoyed me more than the TMR system itself, I hate nothing more than an empty apology.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If someone doesn't move out of my reserved seat they'd have sixteen stone of Yorkshireman on their knee.

The trouble with XC is the lack of seating, which is not going to change anytime soon. I think the TMR system is fairer than "I got on first", as everyone has access to it and it doesn't unfairly prejudice those who are less mobile or don't elbow their way to the front of the scrum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But would you care if their were lots of seats? When I travel on the WCML, even before Virgin decided to FU, I was happy to walk up the train. Even on FGW you know roughly where to stand to get a seat (even between London and Reading). But equally looking at it the other way if virgin had it and coach FU were for such reservations, the rest of us just wouldn't sit in it.

Depends if I have luggage. With luggage walking the train is a faff.

Neil

 

[me123]

I think the TMR system is fairer than "I got on first", as everyone has access to it and it doesn't unfairly prejudice those who are less mobile or don't elbow their way to the front of the scrum.

Although it does unfairly prejudice those that aren't aware the facility exists, those who don't own a mobile telephone, and those who aren't confident in using the system. Is this fairer than the traditional system? There's pros and cons to both sides, but I don't think that the current implementation of TMR is an overall improvement (although I agree that some people will benefit - people like myself who are more likely to make use of it).

If there was a way for TMR to acknowledge the presence of an unreserved passengers, then it could work. The only way that I can think of this working is if the guard updates the reservation system when they're going through the TMR carriage(s) - which I doubt is practical.

Easy way to sort out problems with not getting a seat with XC...compulsory reservations should be introduced on all services

This did cross my mind, briefly. It's not unprecedented either - the busy Amtrak North East Corridor in the USA operates compulsory reservations. But what about the many XC trains that are full and standing? Unless you significantly increase the seating capacity, you're going to leave many passengers stranded, probably mostly commuters who have no other option.

There's currently nothing to stop me reserving an entire train using TMR if I was so inclined, and no cost penalty (over and above the price of a standard text message). I suspect that, if reservations were compulsory, commuters will reserve multiple seats many weeks in advance to ensure that they can get on the train they want. If we assume that reservations open closer to the date and time of travel, you'll probably end up with a rush to secure a seat on the train. Lots of people won't get reservations, and the trains are not going to be 100% full. No-one will win.

 

[Starmill]

There is only one solution that will please everyone - more coaches. You know who to ask for that. Given the resources available, it's quite clear that the current system in use on XC, despite the room for improvement, is better than previously.

 

[csilke]

The letters section of the August 2014 Modern Railways included some comments by the Head of Communications at CrossCountry one of which was

train managers have the technology to reserve a customer into a specific seat on the train or identify another unreserved seat for the customer

So isn't the answer to the problem of passengers being moved from a 'might be reserved' seat for the train manager to reserve the seat for them before someone else does.

Given they can do it, not to do it just seems like bad customer service.

 

[broadgage]

I suppose these problems are inevitable on XC due to their ridiculously short trains, totally unsuitable for the long distance journeys they carry out....... Cattle Class......

Good point.
But are not some rather similar half length trains, with electronic seat reservations, on their way to the Great western ?
So presumably this problem will become more widespread.

 

[talldave]

There's currently nothing to stop me reserving an entire train using TMR if I was so inclined, and no cost penalty (over and above the price of a standard text message). I suspect that, if reservations were compulsory, commuters will reserve multiple seats many weeks in advance to ensure that they can get on the train they want. If we assume that reservations open closer to the date and time of travel, you'll probably end up with a rush to secure a seat on the train. Lots of people won't get reservations, and the trains are not going to be 100% full. No-one will win.

If the system is that poor, then it'll only take one enthusiastic hacker with a bit of spare time to bring the system to its knees, and deservedly so too.

 

[Failed Unit]

Depends if I have luggage. With luggage walking the train is a faff.

Neil

Put it in the DVT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Easy way to sort out problems with not getting a seat with XC...compulsory reservations should be introduced on all services

I think judging by how XC are working now they should certainly have the black R (reservations recommended) on all their services.

I think compulsory reservations is going a bit far, sometimes there is a need to crush-load a train to shift problems. However, I do think with more and more ways to obtain a reservation and choose your preferred seat, going to the idea of having a reservation being the default might not be a bad thing. As I say you'd do that by having reserved coaches/areas and unreserved coaches/areas. If you want to sit in the former, get a reservation, either before boarding or from a machine on the train / your phone, or risk losing the seat. Or sit in the latter/stand/take the risk. Not having to mark reservations on board (other than permanently marking an area/coach) would reduce arguments hugely.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Put it in the DVT.

Mostly not an option, to be fair...isn't VTEC talking about introducing checked luggage, though?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The trouble with XC is the lack of seating, which is not going to change anytime soon. I think the TMR system is fairer than "I got on first", as everyone has access to it and it doesn't unfairly prejudice those who are less mobile or don't elbow their way to the front of the scrum.

True. The scrum is unpleasant - I'm glad to see the back of it with air travel, with even Ryanair having gone over to reserved seating. Cinemas are even increasingly going that way - the Cineworld chain has done, certainly.

But some of us don't plan to the extent of being able to reserve the day before.

Neil