Hi - having read some of the older posts I know that the regs say you must have your rail card on you when travelling with discounted ticket... . However it seeems grossly unfair when there is a genuine mistake - my daughter has a valid 16-25 card and had purchased a ticket online. However when she travelled she had not realised that she she still had her old card in her wallet whilst the new one was sitting at home - she was then charged the extra fare on the train. I fail to understand why the rail company will not even consider her appealing aginast this if she can clearly prove a genuine error - her new card is clearly valid from the end of July. Can anyone explain this??
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CarterUSM
Established Member
It is unfortunate, but it pays to ensure you have the correct documentation prior to travel. I can empathise with your frustration but it is not the railways responsibility to ensure that you remember your railcard. It is a costly error but i'm sure she will not repeat it!
Your daughter should have already read the conditions below prior to acquiring the railcard in order to agree to it use. The relevant clause is in bold, note that nowhere does it say you can appeal as it is YOUR fault YOU are not carrying YOUR railcard.
So, in short she is not entitled to a refund. She failed to carry her railcard, and it is her responsibility to check she has it with her.
222007
Member
Quite correctly as well. It clearly states in the terms and conditions of the railcard you must carry it or will be charged for a new ticket. No grounds for appeal im afraid. Unfortunately doing my job i come across this a lot the thing i dont understand is why people dont put the railcard in there purse/wallet stright away.
While I agree that the contract says you must have the correct railcard, it is a pity that there isn't a general one-off goodwill gesture of a refund on this kind of ticketing irregularity.
I don't really see how being this strict on the terms helps the railway retain customers, though I guess they take the point of view that a railcard user is already a regular customer ?
I don't really see how being this strict on the terms helps the railway retain customers, though I guess they take the point of view that a railcard user is already a regular customer ?
Hi -yes I know all the Rail companies answers but I'm afraid it is not the first time I have had to swallow their intractable 'jobsworth' attitude. I know they could make allowances for genuine proveable errors and win alot more fans from travellers such as myself who have never tried to fare dodge. Anyway - now I've let off steam I will go back to consoling my cash strapped daughter!
scotsman
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Sorry, she travelled on the train without a valid railcard - no good sending in proof you've got one at home - no proof it's yours and the conditions say you must have it with you at the time of travel.
I've done it myself a couple of times, but knew it was my own fault so was prepared to pay the price for doing so. If guards and station staff were to let people off all the time for this it would be unfair on the people who carry the railcard all the time and would mean that people could defraud the system by buying tickets with railcard discounts and never buy a railcard.
With season tickets, if you leave it at home you buy a standard ticket and this can be refunded at the station when you show the season ticket. Perhaps the same thing could be done with a railcard, but I doubt the rules will change.
With season tickets, if you leave it at home you buy a standard ticket and this can be refunded at the station when you show the season ticket. Perhaps the same thing could be done with a railcard, but I doubt the rules will change.
MidnightFlyer
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Basically, you must have all travel docs on you to make the ticket valid - in this case a railcard. Sorry, but they're the rules.
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222007
Member
How do you know its a one off though? For i know the passenger in front of me (im not suggest the OP's daughter has done this) says the same thing to every member of staff they come across. This is the problem that the minority spoil it for the majority.
I'm still saying sell the undiscounted ticket on board, but allow a general one-off goodwill mail-in refund of that ticket so the genuine customer gets a break. Heck, even charge a $10 admin fee on the refund.
We seem to be able to do that for forgotten season tickets.
The TOCs do not want to go out of their way to 'retain customers', what incentive is there for them to? They need to generate money and they do this by using people who have made a mistake as cash cows. These people usually have no choice but to travel by train. If some of them are put off, that doesn't bother the TOCs as if there is a reduction in passenger numbers then the DfT will foot the bill, however even if some are put off, overall increases in passenger numbers are likely due to people ditching their cars. So no need to worry about treating customers badly and putting them off!
Charging for a new ticket IS their idea of making 'an allowance' for an error! (I agree it's unfair, and there should be a refund minus a reasonable admin fee on production of the Railcard, IMO) It's not an accusation of fare dodging. If they were making an accusation of fare dodging they'd be prosecuting and threatening the customer with a criminal record.
If you make a mistake on a railway journey, they will be kind to you and charge you a lot of money. If you do it deliberately, you will be treated far worse than a shoplifter and will have a limited range of careers to choose from!
Lampshade
Established Member
Yes, but season ticket holders have sometimes paid a hell of a lot of money for them and so are obviously going to be treated more leniently than 16-25 railcard holders who are paying less than they otherwise would have done - even though at the end of the day they don't have it with them and therefore have no valid ticket, it's complete double standards.
Someone on a train I was on a few weeks ago had no railcard with them but the Guard only asked her for the excess, she doesn't know how lucky she was
hock:
Someone on a train I was on a few weeks ago had no railcard with them but the Guard only asked her for the excess, she doesn't know how lucky she was
hock:If she boarded at a station that did not have ticket issuing facilities to issue an excess fare, then that was the correct action. If the ticket office was open then I agree she was lucky.Someone on a train I was on a few weeks ago had no railcard with them but the Guard only asked her for the excess, she doesn't know how lucky she was
Indeed we have (I speak as a commuter on Southeastern, and Thameslink before that), however another way of looking at it is that we are largely a captive audience with no real alternative, and (for annual seasons) get 52 weeks for the price of 40 - so I do sometimes wonder if we might get squeezed further in the future if the TOCs want to get more hard-nosed about it
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Er, "grossly unfair"?
All she was asked to do was to pay the "normal" price for the journey.
No penalty, no prosecution, no withdrawal of the Railcard, no humilitating scene.
It just seems like the sort of mishap most of us experience in our day-to-day business in one way or other, and which we just have to deal with.
Yes, it is unfortunate, and I am sympatheic to all misfortune. But this isn't much of a problem, is it?
Just getting from A-B safely, on time, and in some comfort, in exchange for the "normal" fare sounds like something going right to me!
Lampshade
Established Member
Quite, this was on leaving Manchester Piccadilly mid morning.
Similar thing happened to my wife recently - travelling on VT from London to Manchester with the kids but forgot the family railcard. Fortunately the train platform was announced in good time so the barrier staff at Euston suggested the cheapest option was to buy a new railcard as there was enough time - so she did. Fair outcome I thought and no complaints.
Flamingo
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I had a young lady travelling to X one Friday last year, on the outward portion of a YP return ticket. No railcard.
"It's at home, that's where the bank posted it to, I'm getting it when I get there, I'm on my way home from uni for the weekend".
So, being the kind-hearted person I am (I know), I let her off, but I did write "check railcard" on the return ticket, and told her to sort it at the booking office if she didn't have the RC before travelling again.
Come Sunday afternoon, I'm working a train from X. You guessed it - same young lady, sans YP railcard -
"It's at my flat, I'm travelling back to uni, the bank posted it to my term address".
Me - "You told me Friday it was at home"
"I don't know what you mean, I've never seen you before"
Me "Then why is it my handwriting on that ticket saying "Check RC"? Get your card out, this is costing you a full open."
Much bitching and moaning and £100 later she was a much wiser young woman - and as I never heard any more, I'm guessing that the complaint to the MD she threatened me with never materialised.
Which is why I am not quite so "understanding" with missing YP railcards any more, and I guess is the same for some of my colleagues.
Bottom line is, she will remember it next time (and you'll remember to remind her). View it as an educational experience!
"It's at home, that's where the bank posted it to, I'm getting it when I get there, I'm on my way home from uni for the weekend".
So, being the kind-hearted person I am (I know), I let her off, but I did write "check railcard" on the return ticket, and told her to sort it at the booking office if she didn't have the RC before travelling again.
Come Sunday afternoon, I'm working a train from X. You guessed it - same young lady, sans YP railcard -
"It's at my flat, I'm travelling back to uni, the bank posted it to my term address".
Me - "You told me Friday it was at home"
"I don't know what you mean, I've never seen you before"
Me "Then why is it my handwriting on that ticket saying "Check RC"? Get your card out, this is costing you a full open."
Much bitching and moaning and £100 later she was a much wiser young woman - and as I never heard any more, I'm guessing that the complaint to the MD she threatened me with never materialised.
Which is why I am not quite so "understanding" with missing YP railcards any more, and I guess is the same for some of my colleagues.
Bottom line is, she will remember it next time (and you'll remember to remind her). View it as an educational experience!
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Depends on what the 'normal' fare is, they may have been charged the full Anytime single, on top of the ticket they already bought, while travelling on an off-peak train.
In other words, they could have been charged over £130 for Manchester-London single on top of a £43 return fare already paid. That would, to me, seem 'grossly unfair'.
On the other hand, they could have done Micklefield to Marsden, a reasonable distance, and only been charged £5.10 on top of a £3.45 fare already paid, which would sound like a reasonable sum and wouldn't really sound that unfair to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good job she didn't complain then - in theory you could be told off for being too lenient for issuing a fare
As there is good evidence that she lied, which could result in a prosecution. In a way she was very lucky you didn't report her!
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Hmm, okay, I'm slightly more sympathetic if the actual incident involved an additional £130, but I'll stick with my interpretation and my view:
even if the passenger was asked to pay £130 (in addition to the lower amount already paid for discounted travel without the verifying card), then its only the corect price for the service proided. Its not a big deal. Its paying the price for something.
And maybe it was a fiver.
That doesn't change my view on the claim of it being "grossly unfair". It wasn't.
And I am very gratefull to flamingo for the story of the YP ticket holder without Railcard (two posts up) - if that's what rail staff experience then that's what passengers do.
The OP's story is not an innappropriate reponse.
It still seems unfair, because someone with no ticket is paying less than someone with a railcard discounted ticket and no railcard, and potentially charged a fare that is not the appropriate fare for the time of travel (e.g. Anytime when an Off Peak is valid). I don't consider £130 to be the 'correct' fare from MAN to EUS, because I would never consider paying it. I'd even get Megabus to avoid paying that, and that's coming from someone who hates coach travel.
I believe that, the degree to which it can be considered 'unfair' depends on the circumstances (of course it is subjective). It may also make a significant difference if it was an outward/single or return portion. The price of the ticket held and the price of the ticket purchased would have a huge impact.
e.g. York - Sheffield passenger on a YNG SOR (£12.40), on an outward portion, told has to purchase new ticket, so pays £18.80, that isn't bad at all for the distance! They then use their new £18.80 SOR, and then 5 days later, they can use their original SOR when they have found their railcard for another journey. Total loss = £6.40. Sounds fair!
e.g. York - Retford passenger on a YNG CDR (£9.70), on outward portion, told has to purchase new ticket, so asked for £38.60 (it's cheaper to buy further OR split, but they won't be offered that...), they can't then use their unused £9.70 ticket as it expires that day. They can't get a refund as it's under £10. Total loss = £38.60. That's quite a lot of money for a journey of comparable distance than the Sheffield one. Sounds less fair than the previous example!
How 'fair' the OPs situation was depends on:
Where was the journey from/to?
Exactly what ticket(s) were held & what price?
Exactly what ticket(s) were issued & what price?
To be honest, it's a lottery...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the first example, the passenger can get 2 journeys for £31.20, for journeys that would normally cost them £12.40 per journey (£24.80) so have lost out on £6.40,
In the second example, the passenger gets 1 journey for £48.30 for a journey that would normally cost them £9.70 so have lost out on £38.60.
The distance is comparable.
The 1st example assumes that the passenger is able to, and wishes to, make the journey again within the time window that the outward portion of their (unused) SOR is valid for.
I'm unsure that the system can be considered 'fair', unless a lottery is considered 'fair' But the OP's daughter may have been treated fairly - I cannot say without the facts requested above 
Even then, it'll be subjective!
I believe that, the degree to which it can be considered 'unfair' depends on the circumstances (of course it is subjective). It may also make a significant difference if it was an outward/single or return portion. The price of the ticket held and the price of the ticket purchased would have a huge impact.
e.g. York - Sheffield passenger on a YNG SOR (£12.40), on an outward portion, told has to purchase new ticket, so pays £18.80, that isn't bad at all for the distance! They then use their new £18.80 SOR, and then 5 days later, they can use their original SOR when they have found their railcard for another journey. Total loss = £6.40. Sounds fair!
e.g. York - Retford passenger on a YNG CDR (£9.70), on outward portion, told has to purchase new ticket, so asked for £38.60 (it's cheaper to buy further OR split, but they won't be offered that...), they can't then use their unused £9.70 ticket as it expires that day. They can't get a refund as it's under £10. Total loss = £38.60. That's quite a lot of money for a journey of comparable distance than the Sheffield one. Sounds less fair than the previous example!
How 'fair' the OPs situation was depends on:
Where was the journey from/to?
Exactly what ticket(s) were held & what price?
Exactly what ticket(s) were issued & what price?
To be honest, it's a lottery...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the first example, the passenger can get 2 journeys for £31.20, for journeys that would normally cost them £12.40 per journey (£24.80) so have lost out on £6.40,
In the second example, the passenger gets 1 journey for £48.30 for a journey that would normally cost them £9.70 so have lost out on £38.60.
The distance is comparable.
The 1st example assumes that the passenger is able to, and wishes to, make the journey again within the time window that the outward portion of their (unused) SOR is valid for.
I'm unsure that the system can be considered 'fair', unless a lottery is considered 'fair'
But the OP's daughter may have been treated fairly - I cannot say without the facts requested above Even then, it'll be subjective!
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
The OP claimed that her daughter being asked to pay the fare for the journey taken (Railcard not being available) was "grossly unfair".
I disagreed, largely because her daughter was only asked to pay the advertised, "normal" fare (whatever that might have been).
I don't believe any of us are helping by suggesting that there was anything unfair or incorrect in the rail worker's response. The OP's daughter has not suffered too badly and, importantly, will probably be more careful in the future.
Additionally, the OP, now being aware of flamingo's post, may be more understanding too.
Nothing in your post, Yorkie, improves those outcomes.
I disagreed, largely because her daughter was only asked to pay the advertised, "normal" fare (whatever that might have been).
I don't believe any of us are helping by suggesting that there was anything unfair or incorrect in the rail worker's response. The OP's daughter has not suffered too badly and, importantly, will probably be more careful in the future.
Additionally, the OP, now being aware of flamingo's post, may be more understanding too.
Nothing in your post, Yorkie, improves those outcomes.
I'm saying the system is a lottery, and I would therefore consider it to be an unfair system.
I am not saying it was - or wasn't - unfair in the case of the OP's daughter, because it depends on various factors as detailed above.
I believe the examples above illustrate what a lottery it is, and how for some people it's just a few quid, no big deal and they really can't complain at all, while others doing a journey of a comparable distance, lose out by a factor of perhaps 6 times as much money as someone else.
We also don't know if she was asked to pay an excess - the original post isn't clear on that - which would be extremely reasonable of the guard, or may have been asked to pay for an off peak ticket. We also don't know if she boarded at a staffed or unstaffed station.
I don't think anyone is suggesting there was anything incorrect in the rail worker's response, as we don't actually know what the rail worker's response was it is impossible to say.
I am not saying it was - or wasn't - unfair in the case of the OP's daughter, because it depends on various factors as detailed above.
I believe the examples above illustrate what a lottery it is, and how for some people it's just a few quid, no big deal and they really can't complain at all, while others doing a journey of a comparable distance, lose out by a factor of perhaps 6 times as much money as someone else.
We also don't know if she was asked to pay an excess - the original post isn't clear on that - which would be extremely reasonable of the guard, or may have been asked to pay for an off peak ticket. We also don't know if she boarded at a staffed or unstaffed station.
I don't think anyone is suggesting there was anything incorrect in the rail worker's response, as we don't actually know what the rail worker's response was it is impossible to say.
Personally I don't think what Flamingo did on the second meeting of this passenger was wrong at all, but it sums up quite nicely why guards are generally less lenient (comes down again to the minority spoil it for the majority)...and this is coming from a holder of a YP (yes I'm old fashioned!) as well.
In numerous instances I have also heard many reminders about not having the railcard makes the ticket invalid...namely on the MAN-EUS trains where they sit at MAN for some 20 mins...the guard the other day must have gone on about 5 mins at least about what happens if you don't have valid ticket etc and then also reinterated the point again just before departure and reiterated it yet again on arrival at Stockport, giving anyome without a valid ticket the chance to alight before ticket checks commenced.
In numerous instances I have also heard many reminders about not having the railcard makes the ticket invalid...namely on the MAN-EUS trains where they sit at MAN for some 20 mins...the guard the other day must have gone on about 5 mins at least about what happens if you don't have valid ticket etc and then also reinterated the point again just before departure and reiterated it yet again on arrival at Stockport, giving anyome without a valid ticket the chance to alight before ticket checks commenced.
I totally agree.
Yes, you're right.
We've discussed it before and I think the general consensus was that the excess alone isn't enough (otherwise anyone without a railcard may 'chance it'), but the current system can be too harsh (depending on circumstances), a fair system may be along the lines of a new ticket, but then a full refund of the old ticket OR an excess, plus a fee. I recall all sorts of suggestions, many of them quite sensible, but in reality I can't see it changing.
The discount code is still "YNG" on ticket booking programs such as Avantix! 16-25 is a daft name anyway as it's not just limited by age!
That's good, people can't really be surprised then when asked for an additional fare!
Flamingo
Established Member
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The whole system is a lottery, as there are a lot of factors that may mean that a ticket is not checked at all. Short of manned barriers at EVERY station 24/7 and a full ticket check between every stop on every train, it will always be thus.
In lieu of this, there has to be an incentive to encourage people to buy the correct ticket for the journey, otherwise a large number of passengers will not buy any ticket, or buy the cheapest thing that will get them through a barrier, if their only potential loss is what they would have had to pay anyway. We may as well put an honesty box outside the station.
The system has got some punitive charges, both in terms of full open and penalty fares. By using the train (as opposed to a bus), people are choosing to risk falling foul of these charges.
There are a hard-core of people who think that the rules should not apply to them. Punitive rules have to be in place to deal with them, as any excuse that can be used will be used - Mr Loophole does not only do traffic cases!
It has to be said, that the vast majority of passengers do manage to buy the correct ticket and find the correct train, and bring the correct railcard. The railway has got a large number of staff who are there to advise people on what they need to do, and this does seem to work the vast majority of the time. The people who I charge up do not appear to be either suffering from some mental infirmity or shy and retiring in view of the abuse they manage to come out with. Even the "confused little old lady" of storied fame usually manages to tell you at first sight that they need someone to lift their cases off the train, and make sure that it happens, they don't want to have to wait!
I actually don't think that stories like these, or the two passengers at Eastleigh are bad PR for the railways - I think that they do a good job of publicising information that discourages people from trying it on, therefore protecting the overall revenue, helping to keep the money coming into the industry that pays everybody's wages and ultimately keeping the overall ticket cost down.
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southerner2174
Member
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Ive spent the last week confiscating 7 yp railcards which have all expired on the 31/07/10, all are the natwest 3 year railcards and have had several excuses regarding why they are still being used and why they dont have a valid railcard.
Unfortunately for these unlucky few i've heard these excuses before and im bored of them, and the railcard is confiscated (given to the rpo's who im informed are adding them to their album of confiscated railcards - think panini football sticker albums) and a new fare is charged, until a few months ago i used to just excess them but day after day of excuses just gets too much and after all they are breaking the terms and conditions of what they are signed upto so a new full fare ticket is now charged (better than a £20 penalty fare and new ticket charged if caught by rpo's).
The worst was a couple of days ago, a fella travelling on a yp discounted ticket, when asked for the card he said 'oh i was going to get one within the next few days'. Think we can guess the outcome, ticket confiscated and a new one issued, all be it an extra £10 spent, so he was lucky he wasn't travelling halfway across the country.
The main point is it would be nice if we could single out the genuine traveller who has made a mistake from the serial evader but we cant so until a method is put into place we have to treat everyone the same, at least then it protects us from the 'your only doing it cos im black, white, yellow, foreign, bloke, women' rant.
No i'm doing it because you haven't followed the rules!!!!
Unfortunately for these unlucky few i've heard these excuses before and im bored of them, and the railcard is confiscated (given to the rpo's who im informed are adding them to their album of confiscated railcards - think panini football sticker albums) and a new fare is charged, until a few months ago i used to just excess them but day after day of excuses just gets too much and after all they are breaking the terms and conditions of what they are signed upto so a new full fare ticket is now charged (better than a £20 penalty fare and new ticket charged if caught by rpo's).
The worst was a couple of days ago, a fella travelling on a yp discounted ticket, when asked for the card he said 'oh i was going to get one within the next few days'. Think we can guess the outcome, ticket confiscated and a new one issued, all be it an extra £10 spent, so he was lucky he wasn't travelling halfway across the country.
The main point is it would be nice if we could single out the genuine traveller who has made a mistake from the serial evader but we cant so until a method is put into place we have to treat everyone the same, at least then it protects us from the 'your only doing it cos im black, white, yellow, foreign, bloke, women' rant.
No i'm doing it because you haven't followed the rules!!!!
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