wrong railcard

[yorkie]

The whole system is a lottery, as there are a lot of factors that may mean that a ticket is not checked at all. Short of manned barriers at EVERY station 24/7 and a full ticket check between every stop on every train, it will always be thus..

Well, yes I agree, but I didn't mean that.

I meant, assuming that the passenger is caught without a railcard, then the resulting 'penalty' is a lottery, with someone holding a YP discounted SOR who is able & willing to travel again at a later date, on a route with reasonable SORs, doesn't do too badly, compared to the person with the CDR under £10 that has no value who then has to pay around four times the price because the TOC who prices that flow charges a huge premium for SORs, and can get no value out of their original ticket, and pays nearly £10 more than someone who didn't have a ticket at all.

 

[Flamingo]

it protects us from the 'your only doing it cos im black, white, yellow, foreign, bloke, women' rant.

I got told once "You're only charging me because we bet you at rugby in Cardiff on Saturday"

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, yes I agree, but I didn't mean that.

I meant, assuming that the passenger is caught without a railcard, then the resulting 'penalty' is a lottery, with someone holding a YP discounted SOR who is able & willing to travel again at a later date, on a route with reasonable SORs, doesn't do too badly, compared to the person with the CDR under £10 that has no value who then has to pay around four times the price because the TOC who prices that flow charges a huge premium for SORs, and can get no value out of their original ticket, and pays nearly £10 more than someone who didn't have a ticket at all.

The price of the ticket depends on the journey being done. If it's a longer journey, then the ticket will cost more. The passenger has the option of paying a ticket to the next stop, alighting, and then purchasing a new cheaper ticket to their eventual destination. I've done this to people who have said "I'm not paying that, I'd rather get off at the next stop" ("Fine, then you need a ticket from X to Y")

On your main point, in theory the old ticket is ripped up and a new full open issued. That's what the book says, (and certain managers expect). However, the same managers don't want to deal with the complaints that a zero tolerance approach engenders.

Fair enough. I once described my personal approach on another forum as depending on "my mood and your attitude", which flippant response succeeded in getting me a lot of abuse. However, I do stand by it.

To enlarge on it, there are a lot of factors involved, which basically come down to a cost/benefit analysis. How much money am I going to get and for how much hassle. As an example, I will probably get a £20 excess / £35 Superoff-peak without too much trouble where I won't get a £100 full open without a major investment of time and effort.

I'm going to attract a lot of flak if I delay a train waiting for BTP for non-payment of a fare, both from my manager and the passengers that miss their connections further up the route - but if it's the last stop coming up, with BTP already there, then I can have a reception committee, and nobody gets delayed. (unless I have a quick turn-around and don't have time to chat to BTP - but I might have a boring 3 hour stopover, and need something to pass the time... )

If it's 17:00, I've potentially got 400 other tickets to check on that train, some of whom might have no ticket at all. But if it's 13:30 there are only 60 people on the train, I can spend more time either arguing, or listening to the story to gauge how genuine it is.

If I have seen them before, I might even remember their railcard - or lack thereof!

The passenger might put their hands up, or might go into the full "I'll discuss it with someone senior at the station, I don't talk to the monkey, I talk to the organ-grinder". (The idiot who said that to me talked himself from a £14 excess which I originally offered him to a £104 PF from the RPI's who met the train, as he had requested! )

A lot of posters go on about us using our discretion - well, that's just what we do. Which is what makes it into a lottery.

The best way to avoid it? Buy the right ticket / bring the correct railcard. As I said, the vast majority of people manage to do so.

 

[yorkie]

On your main point, in theory the old ticket is ripped up and a new full open issued. That's what the book says, (and certain managers expect). However, the same managers don't want to deal with the complaints that a zero tolerance approach engenders.

Interesting, but that only seems right if the ticket has been used surely? e.g. if someone held a CDR which was 10p more than a CDS and was on their return, and had done the outward without a railcard, that seems perfectly reasonable to withdraw the ticket. But if someone had just boarded at their origin with a ticket on their outward, and were then issued with a replacement ticket, they've not used their original ticket at all surely?

Fair enough. I once described my personal approach on another forum as depending on "my mood and your attitude", which flippant response succeeded in getting me a lot of abuse. However, I do stand by it.

Well, actually, I think that varying the response based on the passengers attitude is good thing It's showing discretion and that's good with me!

A lot of posters go on about us using our discretion - well, that's just what we do. Which is what makes it into a lottery.

Actually, I don't think that showing discretion is a lottery. I think that's actually making it more fair, rather than less fair.

What I meant by the lottery comment was that the rules don't have a standard charge for this, either as a proportion of the price paid or a standard amount, and the 'by the book' amount can vary massively and then there's the issue of the cost of the old ticket which may not be recoverable in addition to the new ticket.

I think it's a good thing that you show discretion, and in the York - Retford example, where the passenger paid £9.70 for a discounted ticket costing £14.70 undiscounted, if someone was being argumentative and insulting toward you over their mistake, I'd then have no problem with you charging them £38.60 "by the book" for an SOR (Or £19.30 for an SOS and they can then sort the rtn portion out later!), but if it appeared to be a genuine mistake, and you then charged them either an excess to the SOR (£23.90 - still far higher than the non-railcard price they would have paid) or for a brand new CDR (£14.70) or even an SVR (£20.50), then that wouldn't be a 'lottery' to me, that's using your discretion and that's a good thing in my opinion, and makes it less of a lottery for genuine customers by 'evening out' the 'penalty' to be fairer.

 

[Flamingo]

"By the book" is a full open fare - the toal paid depends on the journey being made - the longer the journey, the higher the fare (and the larger the discount they had from the railcard).

Last case I had of a missing railcard that went to court ended up as a total of £450 fines and costs for what would have been a £30 excess, if they had taken me up on my original kind offer. Which was considerably more than the full open or even a PF (if they had applied to that journey)

Something to add, is that every system has to have a bloody big stick somewhere in it - that's where the RPI's come in. As I say to reluctant passengers, they are paid to be nasty! (although I have to add, all that I know are extremely personable, attractive people with a fine head of hair and impeccable dress sense!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting, but that only seems right if the ticket has been used surely? e.g. if someone held a CDR which was 10p more than a CDS and was on their return, and had done the outward without a railcard, that seems perfectly reasonable to withdraw the ticket. But if someone had just boarded at their origin with a ticket on their outward, and were then issued with a replacement ticket, they've not used their original ticket at all surely?

Just re-read this. Once the ticket has been offered for the journey it's been "used". Although personally, if it's good for use on another day, I usually won't stamp or retain it, especially if, for example, it's a peak train with an off-peak ticket. I might write on it "Check RC" though!

 

[yorkie]

That's quite shocking (the rules that is, not your actions which are most reasonable IMO). The 'by the book' rules make it far better to not buy a ticket in the first place than to forget a railcard!!

What happens if someone boards at an unstaffed station where they did not have opportunity to excess before they commenced their journey? Do they then get the chance to excess on the train? (And if so, is that only if they ask before you spot it?)

 

[Flamingo]

That's quite shocking (the rules that is, not your actions which are most reasonable IMO). The 'by the book' rules make it far better to not buy a ticket in the first place than to forget a railcard!!

What happens if someone boards at an unstaffed station where they did not have opportunity to excess before they commenced their journey? Do they then get the chance to excess on the train? (And if so, is that only if they ask before you spot it?)

Yes, unstaffed stations I become a ticket office! And you are right, it's the same penalty.

My personal starting point is that everyone on the train should have paid whatever the booking office would have charged them to travel on the same train in the same manner as they are doing. No R/C excess them up to the valid ticket for that train, advanced ticket, excess plus £10 admin fee, no ticket then booking office ticket for that train. Again, depends on their attitude. However I ALWAYS tell them what they should be paying, and warn them for next time. On occasions, if they are making a habit of it, then I do give them a short sharp shock in the wallet!

The one exception I make is leaving London to Reading and vice versa- I only do full open singles, as there is a train every 6 minutes, there is no excuse not to go to the booking office!

 

[John @ home]

Once the ticket has been offered for the journey it's been "used".

This surprises me. Last week I met a friend who had been supplied by their work with two SORs Leeds - Derby, one for 2 September and one for 15 September.

If I read your statement literally, if my friend had mistakenly removed the wrong ticket from their wallet and "offered" the 15 September ticket on 2 September, they would have "used" the ticket and it would no longer be valid on 15 September. Can you please quote a source for this rule?

 

[Flamingo]

If they had no other ticket to offer when it was challenged, then the ticket offered would not be valid. All tickets remain the property of the railway, and can be withdrawn if suspected of being used fraudulently, which using an incorrect ticket for the journey travelled may be interpreted as, depending on the circumstances - which ultimately may be up to a court to decide.

Wait until daylight and let one of the RPI's on the site give chapter and verse. I'm a guard, tickets is what I do when there is nothing more important / interesting going on!

Have a look at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
Part 1 and 20 cover it, I think!

 

[mumrar]

It could be easily done the same way as season tickets, just take the railcard number and name etc and give the refund.

And what's to stop someone doing this to get a 16-25 discount without having a railcard, then claiming the refund by giving the ticket to a friend who does have a railcard. Nobody would know that the original ticket holder being charged is not the same person presenting the railcard.

People increasingly need to stop whining about problems of their own cause. Your daughter knew the conditions when she signed up, if she's not happy with them, don't get a railcard. If she gets the railcard, don't then complain when you fall foul of the conditions you have agreed to. Your mistake, your problem, don't get angry with the world just because you can't bear to actually blame yourself for the problem.

Oh and by the way, I notice that we definately seem to be in September now and the card expired on 31st July? More than ample time to switch them over.

 

[33011]

I work in a ticket office and as regards to out of date or forgotten railcards you will be chinged up to the full fare.When someone buys a railcard at a station at the end of each period railcard forms are sent off to ATOS so the TOCs have no way of checking if you have a valid railcard so it's your responsibility to make sure you have it with you when you travel. It's not a case of being a jobsworth it's a case of not being able to find out if said railcard holder has a valid railcard. Hope that helps

Marv

 

[Greenback]

I actually don't think that stories like these, or the two passengers at Eastleigh are bad PR for the railways - I think that they do a good job of publicising information that discourages people from trying it on, therefore protecting the overall revenue, helping to keep the money coming into the industry that pays everybody's wages and ultimately keeping the overall ticket cost down.

An interesting alternative view on publicity. Hopefully such stories will not deter people from using the train, but willdeter them from misusing the very cheap products like Megatrain.

The main point is it would be nice if we could single out the genuine traveller who has made a mistake from the serial evader but we cant so until a method is put into place we have to treat everyone the same, at least then it protects us from the 'your only doing it cos im black, white, yellow, foreign, bloke, women' rant.
No i'm doing it because you haven't followed the rules!!!!

I agree. Although it may seem harsh when someone forgets their railcard, it's not difficult to double check you have it before boarding the train. When I had one, I used to keep my tickets in the railcard wallet witht he railcard itself (unless it was the horrible airline size ones!).

I got to Reading station one day, checked my pockets and realised I didn't have my railcard on me. As Iw as only off into London for the day, I had the following options:

Buy a railcard discounted ticket form the TVM and chance my arm
Buy a full price ticket
Go home

I chose the latter! If I;'d chosen the first option I really would have had no grounds for complaint if I'd been caught out, the ticket withdrawn and forced to buy what was then a standard open return (or two standard open singles)to Paddington. It's impossible to tell who has deliberately set out to travel fraudulently, and who has just been forgetful or careless.

 

[CarterUSM]

I really do not see what the issue is. Can people not take individual responsibility for themselves anymore? I do not think it is grossly unfair whatever the cost may be for the journey taken. I do however, think it isn't a bad idea for a partial refund of the fare paid on production of the valid railcard in question, and making it un-economical after 2 or 3 times .

 

[PhilipW]

You know the old saying about "rules".


"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".

 

[smudge.efc]

In respect of the original post, I do feel situations like this are a tad ‘harsh and unfair’. Not harsh and unfair as in the person should be let off for it, but potentially having to pay for a full anytime fare for a genuine mistake is ridiculous. We’ve all left something behind at some point, it happens to the best of us.

I know at this point it’s easy to simply counter my argument, by pointing out the rules or saying that its not always a genuine mistake, which people have already have, but from a railway user perspective, I can’t help but think the ‘penalty’ doesn’t fit the so called ‘crime’.

So personally I think the issue here should be what is the appropriate ‘penalty’ rather than simply saying ‘Remember your railcard next time’. As for what is the appropriate penalty, I’ve got no idea. Every idea I’ve thought about i’ve found flaws in by just reading this thread.

 

[Flamingo]

Appropriate penalty? Hang them from the nearest signal post as a visible deterrent to others

The full undiscounted fare for the journey seems OK to me. Easy for staff to work out, and in a lot of cases enough of a shock to the system to mean the lesson will be learnt. If on a long journey, the option is always to pay the fare to the next stop, leave the train and buy the correct cheapest ticket to the final destination, if for example on a London - Penzance and "mistake" discovered before Reading.

As has been said, how do you distinguish between the genuine case and the experienced con artist? Buggered if I know, and I do it for a living. Also, in the case of con artists, what's to stop them sending the ticket back with their mates YP card to get the refund? Also, if the only penalty is guaranteed to be the difference between what has been paid and the correct fare for the journey (ie off-peak or super off-peak, or excess) then why would anybody bother to buy full-price tickets, the whole country would be travelling on RC tickets and taking the chance they wouldn't be caught, as their would be no deterrent if they were.

I think that the railway is one of the areas in life where the staff get blamed for the passengers mistakes. I'm not saying that anybody doesn't have the right to forget their railcard - but if they do, they have to be prepared to take the consequences. As I have said, the vast majority of people manage to make their journey on the correct train with the correct ticket and with their railcard if required. The conditions of carriage are readily available, and penalty fares are always signposted. If people feel that the penalties are too draconian, they can always catch a bus. It might be slower and / or more uncomfortable, but there you go.

 

[MikeWh]

Well I still like the idea of a refund of the additional ticket less a small admin fee the first time you do it. This would be my way of making it work. All the details of railcards sold are held centrally (or they should be if they're not). If you forget your railcard you need to take it and the replacement tickets to a station within 7 days of the incident. There you will fill in a form and hand it over to the clerk who will check that the railcard is yours. The form is then submitted to the central office and providing that the railcard has not had a refund before a cheque is sent out to the registered address.

Would that work?

 

[Ferret]

Flamingo - you've summed it up perfectly! I've got to say as traincrew I've got a little tired of hearing the same old excuses as to why people haven't got their railcard. It really is impossible to see who is a con artist and who is a forgetful so and so! Still, the CoC make it perfectly clear what must happen in the event of the passenger having no supporting railcard. For those that have an issue with that, well there is a simple answer; don't agree to the contractual terms and conditions and use coaches instead!

 

[Scotrail84]

I had a young lady travelling to X one Friday last year, on the outward portion of a YP return ticket. No railcard.
"It's at home, that's where the bank posted it to, I'm getting it when I get there, I'm on my way home from uni for the weekend".
So, being the kind-hearted person I am (I know), I let her off, but I did write "check railcard" on the return ticket, and told her to sort it at the booking office if she didn't have the RC before travelling again.
Come Sunday afternoon, I'm working a train from X. You guessed it - same young lady, sans YP railcard -
"It's at my flat, I'm travelling back to uni, the bank posted it to my term address".
Me - "You told me Friday it was at home"
"I don't know what you mean, I've never seen you before"
Me "Then why is it my handwriting on that ticket saying "Check RC"? Get your card out, this is costing you a full open."

Much bitching and moaning and £100 later she was a much wiser young woman - and as I never heard any more, I'm guessing that the complaint to the MD she threatened me with never materialised.

Which is why I am not quite so "understanding" with missing YP railcards any more, and I guess is the same for some of my colleagues.


Ha you would be surprised how often this situation pops up. Its like fate haha.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another favourite is the railcard with no date on it. (its rubbed off) but a after a swipe through the avantix machine all becomes clear!

 

[Flamingo]

You know the old saying about "rules".


"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".

You know the old saying about people saying about rules?: "In every internet forum, whenever rules are mentioned, somebody will quote Douglas Bader's old chestnut as they can't be bothered to read the thread!" :roll:

Don't forget the other old saying:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

 

[Anvil1984]

Well I still like the idea of a refund of the additional ticket less a small admin fee the first time you do it. This would be my way of making it work. All the details of railcards sold are held centrally (or they should be if they're not). If you forget your railcard you need to take it and the replacement tickets to a station within 7 days of the incident. There you will fill in a form and hand it over to the clerk who will check that the railcard is yours. The form is then submitted to the central office and providing that the railcard has not had a refund before a cheque is sent out to the registered address.

Would that work?

Probably not as the tickets are not registered, there is a very easy scam where all the "non-holder" would do is give the tickets to a friend who would take ticket with their railcard to the station and they would get the check and pass the money on, then repeat for however many friends they have with a railcard.

If anyone boards a train knowing they dont have a railcard (left at home or not) and take a seat without saying anything to me (or a colleague if I'm taking over a train) I usually lose all sympathy with them as they are just trying to get away with it and they will be charged full whack (SOS,SOR if boarding at a staffed station), if they mention it before they get on or seek me out then I'll be more lenient.
If I leave my PRIV pass at home I lose all my discounts and agree that would be my fault, so its no different for anybody else in my view but a little courtesy can go a long way

 

[Greenback]

I don;t think the suggestion will work. I'm not sure about now, but there never used to be any sort of central database of railcard holders to check against. There would also be costs in this refund procedure that would have to be borne somewhere along the line.

There is no national database for seasons either AFAIK. My annual season records are held manually at my local station.

Add in the potential for scams and it's a bit of a non starter really.

It's quite clear that you must carry your railcard for the ticket to be valid. We can all forget things, but we need to be grown up enough to accept the consequences. If I forget to take my passport on holiday, I'm not going to get very far! The consequences are a later departure, and huge inconveneince to get my passport! (I did this once on a day trip to Brussels by Eurostar! No one to blame but myself!)

 

[MikeWh]

Perhaps it's because I always buy our family card online and they send out reminders etc that it seemed like there is a central database. I'd also thought I'd read that YP applications get sent off to a central place after issue. Certainly seasons you have to go to the station of issue as I did on the two times it happened to me. Not sure what happens if you buy online now. Anyway, I agree that if there really is no central resource then it wouldn't work.

 

[33011]

Well I still like the idea of a refund of the additional ticket less a small admin fee the first time you do it. This would be my way of making it work. All the details of railcards sold are held centrally (or they should be if they're not). If you forget your railcard you need to take it and the replacement tickets to a station within 7 days of the incident. There you will fill in a form and hand it over to the clerk who will check that the railcard is yours. The form is then submitted to the central office and providing that the railcard has not had a refund before a cheque is sent out to the registered address.

Would that work?

As stated before all railcard forms are sent off to atos so stations have no record of them. As regards to a refund what's to stop a friend who does not have a railcard giving his/her full priced ticket to a friend who has one to get a refund. Sorry can't see your suggestion happening any time soon.Easiest solution if you know you are travelling on a train make sure you have your railcard before you leave. If you were going abroad you would check if you had your passport with you wouldn't you?

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps it's because I always buy our family card online and they send out reminders etc that it seemed like there is a central database. I'd also thought I'd read that YP applications get sent off to a central place after issue. Certainly seasons you have to go to the station of issue as I did on the two times it happened to me. Not sure what happens if you buy online now. Anyway, I agree that if there really is no central resource then it wouldn't work.

There might be a record kept automatically of online purchases, but I would guess that is more for marketing purposes.

Similarly, applications are sent somewhere (I can't remember where!) but I think that was more for audit purposes (random checks that staff were only issuing railcards toe ligible people) rather than for someone to record customer details.

As I say, I'm a bit out of date these days, things may have changed!

 

[MikeWh]

As stated before all railcard forms are sent off to atos so stations have no record of them. As regards to a refund what's to stop a friend who does not have a railcard giving his/her full priced ticket to a friend who has one to get a refund. Sorry can't see your suggestion happening any time soon.Easiest solution if you know you are travelling on a train make sure you have your railcard before you leave. If you were going abroad you would check if you had your passport with you wouldn't you?

Nothing - once! If the friend then forgot themself they wouldn't be able to do it. Anyway, it sounds like there is no central database which is what this would rely on, so never mind.

 

[142094]

Nothing - once! If the friend then forgot themself they wouldn't be able to do it. Anyway, it sounds like there is no central database which is what this would rely on, so never mind.

I'm sure there must be, why else would there be a number on the railcard? Surely ATOC must know how many railcards are going around?

 

[Scotty]

When I book tickets through East Coast, my name is printed on the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

When I book tickets through East Coast, my name is printed on the ticket.

that just means you bought it!

 

[b0b]

Of course the railcard could have a punch area to mark that is had a refund used on it which is gripped when you take your ticket and the railcard to the booking office.

I guess that doesn't protect the TOC against a dodgy agent in the booking office however..

 

[sheff1]

The price of the ticket depends on the journey being done. If it's a longer journey, then the ticket will cost more.

If you mean longer by distance then, on Britain's dysfunctional railway, this is not the case. A couple of of random Anytime Return examples to add to Yorkie's ex-York fares:

Sheffied to Leeds £11.20; Sheffield to Stockport £19.40

Sheffield to London £165.50; Stoke-on-Trent to London £217