wrong railcard

[MCR247]

In respect of the original post, I do feel situations like this are a tad ‘harsh and unfair’. Not harsh and unfair as in the person should be let off for it, but potentially having to pay for a full anytime fare for a genuine mistake is ridiculous. We’ve all left something behind at some point, it happens to the best of us.

I know at this point it’s easy to simply counter my argument, by pointing out the rules or saying that its not always a genuine mistake, which people have already have, but from a railway user perspective, I can’t help but think the ‘penalty’ doesn’t fit the so called ‘crime’.

So personally I think the issue here should be what is the appropriate ‘penalty’ rather than simply saying ‘Remember your railcard next time’. As for what is the appropriate penalty, I’ve got no idea. Every idea I’ve thought about i’ve found flaws in by just reading this thread.

So how do you know if they have done it before or not? So would you turn up at Heathrow T5 and say, sorry I've forgot my ticket, confirmation & passport, but can I still fly. I'll remember them next time

 

[scotsman]

I'm not aware of any 'penalty' on preserved railways for travelling without a valid ticket, which is a shame as I've had a couple that were clearly chancing it - to the point they got me to unload their bikes (no chance! In the end, the Guard did it)

 

[sheff1]

So how do you know if they have done it before or not? So would you turn up at Heathrow T5 and say, sorry I've forgot my ticket, confirmation & passport, but can I still fly. I'll remember them next time

The first two of those would be perfectly fine due to the database of passengers/bookings and in the old 'pre terror' days you wouldn't always need a passport either. I know what you mean though - if something is required to validate your right to travel it is your responsibility, and nobody else's, to make sure you have it.

 

[Ferret]

Sure enough, I've just charged somebody for having an out of date railcard. About the fifth one in two weeks! Once I'd persuaded the holder of the railcard to mover her fingers from the date, I discovered it expired 31-07-10. She said that she'd left it at home after Natwest had sent it through the post. Hmmmm. Well, whether she has or whether she hasn't got a new one, she's now 30odd quid lighter in the purse.

 

[CarterUSM]

Sure enough, I've just charged somebody for having an out of date railcard. About the fifth one in two weeks! Once I'd persuaded the holder of the railcard to mover her fingers from the date, I discovered it expired 31-07-10. She said that she'd left it at home after Natwest had sent it through the post. Hmmmm. Well, whether she has or whether she hasn't got a new one, she's now 30odd quid lighter in the purse.

Me too, two girls with TVM y-p discounted tickets today, one with and the other after a twenty minute grace period to find it, but to no avail. I did feel rather rotten about asking for the full fare, but i did suspect she was chancing it.

 

[me123]

It is unfortunate, but it pays to ensure you have the correct documentation prior to travel. I can empathise with your frustration but it is not the railways responsibility to ensure that you remember your railcard. It is a costly error but i'm sure she will not repeat it!

Out of curiosity, I've occasionally been issued with SCR-Y tickets (rather than Y-P) for my 16-25 (RBS-issued) railcard. I suppose that, because it's a bank issued one, the ticket people assume that it is a Scottish Youth Railcard.

Now, the discount's the same, but could that potentially get me into bother?

Interestingly, I know for a fact that the TVMs have increased the number of "railcard chancers". When I'm sold a ticket, I have to show my railcard. Machines don't have that ability. So people very quickly work out how to get the machine to show a cheaper fare (particularly 16-25 year olds who assume that they're entitled to the discount anyway). And the reason I know is because I know some people who have done this successfully in the past.

And, on another note, I wonder how many people have been caught out with the bank ones. My last renewal was sent to the wrong address, so I went a month without a railcard last year (although thankfully the nice people at RBS have added a month on my last one as compensation!). But some people in that situation would probably just continue to use the railcard, not knowing that they are doing so fraudulently. (And, in fact, given that local services often have lenient ticket checks, could have gotten away with it for some time!).

 

[MCR247]

Maybe they could integrate some sort of scanner for the magnetic strip or have a slot where you put it in

 

[Mike395]

Sadly not at the moment - the web-issued and Natwest railcards don't have a magnetic strip AFAIK (Dont have mine to hand to check mind!)

 

[scotsman]

Out of curiosity, I've occasionally been issued with SCR-Y tickets (rather than Y-P) for my 16-25 (RBS-issued) railcard. I suppose that, because it's a bank issued one, the ticket people assume that it is a Scottish Youth Railcard.

It's only a problem if they think it is when you want something like PlusBus.

However, ScotRail Conductors - I'm aiming this in your direction, if I use my SC-YP card and get issued a YP ticket - is there a chance in hell that someone would have a problem with it? (I can't imagine it but I think it's worth asking....)

 

[MikeWh]

My web issued family railcard is plastic and has a barcode on the back, but no magnetic stripe.

Incidentally, there's a problem with southeastern TVMs where they can't issue family railcard discounted tickets for travel within the Oyster area*. On one occasion I needed to purchase tickets because the ticket office had shut early. The machine was able to issue Network Gold Card tickets and the RPIs I met on the train agreed that this was an acceptable way around the problem.

* If you're interested, the reason is that paper tickets within the Oyster area are all anytime tickets now, so the machine thinks it can't offer railcard discounts in case the ticket is used before 9.30 ... even at weekends. They're aware of the issue but don't seem able (or is that inclined?) to fix it.

 

[yorkie]

However, ScotRail Conductors - I'm aiming this in your direction, if I use my SC-YP card and get issued a YP ticket - is there a chance in hell that someone would have a problem with it? (I can't imagine it but I think it's worth asking....)

They can, by the rules (but not morally) blame you for this (you should have inspected every detail of your ticket with a magnifying glass, photocopied it in triplicate, and ask the ticket seller to confirm every validity detail and compare it to previous tickets each time you buy a ticket ) and say that the original ticket is completely invalid and you cannot get a refund and must buy a full Anytime fare, and bla bla bla, however if you refused to play ball and let it go to court, they'd probably* then panic that the court may not rule in their favour and conveniently 'let you off this time'!

However, in reality the conductor/RPI will almost certainly understand the situation and there should be no problem The Scottish way of having friendly (in my experience!) ticket checkers on each train, is far better than the South East England way of never seeing an inspector apart from on a blue moon where they're desperate to find the slightest problem with someone's ticket and have a quota of Penalty Fares to fulfil! The former must surely retain more revenue and result in far less evasion and also far less complaints and no aggro for legitimate passengers.

* This isn't legal advice!

 

[CarterUSM]

It's only a problem if they think it is when you want something like PlusBus.

However, ScotRail Conductors - I'm aiming this in your direction, if I use my SC-YP card and get issued a YP ticket - is there a chance in hell that someone would have a problem with it? (I can't imagine it but I think it's worth asking....)

There is a chance in hell, but as Yorkie says, it would be generally be ignored, apart from perhaps a friendly reminder just to double check your ticket, i wouldn't bother with it too much anyway. I have come across one or two people buying a y-p discount from a TVM thinking it is a SC-YR, but again, discretion wins the day, and i remind them that the 50% off season ticket is great value too!

 

[Tom B]

Not so long ago, I caught the evening East Coast HST from Aberdeen to Edinburgh. The train was pretty empty, with a handful of passengers on. The guard waddled up and checked my ticket, and pointed out my railcard ran out of date last week (I hadn't noticed, the guard on the way up said nothing, the new railcard being in my drawer at home). Just as I was reaching for my wallet, the guard continued "But I canny be arsed walkin' down tae the other end of the train tae get the machine to charge ye, so learn your lesson pal" and waddled off.

A goodwill compromise, which I have heard of occurring, is that the passenger pays the fare, writes in with the tickets and proof of the railcard being held, and a refund is processed.

 

[scotsman]

They can, by the rules (but not morally) blame you for this (you should have inspected every detail of your ticket with a magnifying glass, photocopied it in triplicate, and ask the ticket seller to confirm every validity detail and compare it to previous tickets each time you buy a ticket ) and say that the original ticket is completely invalid and you cannot get a refund and must buy a full Anytime fare, and bla bla bla, however if you refused to play ball and let it go to court, they'd probably* then panic that the court may not rule in their favour and conveniently 'let you off this time'!

However, in reality the conductor/RPI will almost certainly understand the situation and there should be no problem The Scottish way of having friendly (in my experience!) ticket checkers on each train, is far better than the South East England way of never seeing an inspector apart from on a blue moon where they're desperate to find the slightest problem with someone's ticket and have a quota of Penalty Fares to fulfil! The former must surely retain more revenue and result in far less evasion and also far less complaints and no aggro for legitimate passengers.

* This isn't legal advice!

Yeah, didn't think it would it be a problem - I've only had a couple on Y-P (vice SC-YP), just wondering what position I'd have if someone on a power drive checked it. Although I once had to explain the conditions of a SC-YP to a XC TM, I told her they were the same for Dundee-Ladybank journey I was after and she just issued a Y-P instead.

 

[Greenback]

A goodwill compromise, which I have heard of occurring, is that the passenger pays the fare, writes in with the tickets and proof of the railcard being held, and a refund is processed.

Wouldn't have happened in my day, if it happens now, which I am doubtful about!

 

[smudge.efc]

So how do you know if they have done it before or not? So would you turn up at Heathrow T5 and say, sorry I've forgot my ticket, confirmation & passport, but can I still fly. I'll remember them next time

Mate, if you read what I actually said, I happily admit that at the end of the day, you need your railcard on you, and that genuine mistakes are not always genuine mistakes as many of the guards have pointed out on this thread. The issue, well in my perspective at least, is finding the solution that punishes the chances, but doesn't leave a bad taste with those who make a genuine mistake. I for one certainly can't think of an appropriate solution for situations like this.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . my railcard ran out of date last week (I hadn't noticed, the guard on the way up said nothing, the new railcard being in my drawer at home)..

Of course it was!
We believe you!

A goodwill compromise, which I have heard of occurring, is that the passenger pays the fare, writes in with the tickets and proof of the railcard being held, and a refund is processed.

At the risk of introducing yet another policy, this does seem to be a proportionate response, perhaps with an admin fee to avoid trivial claims and to cover the additional costs incured by the TOCs who adopt that policy and who have to process the repayments. (maybe £20? That policy would avert the concern of yorkie about exreme cases of over £100 for an Anytime Single Standard ticket).

 

[Greenback]

One would think that the more expensive the journey could potentially be, the more careful an honest and organised would be about having their railcard with them!

I don't really see the problem. Are we all so devoid of common sense that we not only can't be bothered to doubel check we have everything we need, but also have to moan and groan when the consequnces of our own failures cost us money?

 

[jon0844]

I doubt many people will create a load of fake names and IDs, so the ability to get a refund when presenting a valid YPRC (or other railcard) later on, and pay an admin fee to make it worth the TOCs while, seems perfectly fair.

Like a lost season ticket, you simply have a limit to the amount of claims you can make in a year. And the TOC keeps a record, so if you're doing this all the time (because you're simply using a mates railcard) then it's game over!

As I read before, it's quite good for the RPI then as they can sell that full price ticket and know that they can tell someone that they'll get the money back (less the fee) and everyone is happy. If they're trying it on, they'll know that they are screwed but won't be able to do anything about it!

That sounds like a nice way of punishing the chancers, and helping the people who genuinely did forget/mislay their railcard. I'm willing to accept that most people probably are chancers, which would make this even better - and stop the guard/RPI from having to make a judgement either way.

 

[me123]

However, in reality the conductor/RPI will almost certainly understand the situation and there should be no problem The Scottish way of having friendly (in my experience!) ticket checkers on each train, is far better than the South East England way of never seeing an inspector apart from on a blue moon where they're desperate to find the slightest problem with someone's ticket and have a quota of Penalty Fares to fulfil!

I whole-heartily agree with this! In fact, compared to Scotland, it's almost a terrifying experience to board a train in England! Do I have the right ticket? IS my ticket valid? Was there a ticket machine/office at the station that I just missed? If so, am I going to be PF'd or, worse, prosecuted?

It sounds crazy but, in Scotland, I just board the train and get on my merry way. But, in England, I feel like I have to think twice about what I'm doing. Maybe it's just down to the fact that I'm in a different country, and have read too many stories on this site!

 

[Greenback]

If I understand Yorkie correctly, the most unfair aspect of forgetting a railcard is that someone could have bought a railcard discounted Advance fare and, having forgotten to bring their railcard, could then be charged a full anytime fare by virtue of not having a valid ticket to travel. This could cost a few hundred quid, and the person would already have paid soemthing for their travel that is not taken into account.

I agree that allowing one refund per calendar year, on production of the valid, in date railcard along with both original sets of tickets, minus an admin charge, would appear to be a reasonable course of action. Perhaps the railcard itself could be endorsed rather than setting up a new database (assuming one doesn't already exist!)

This would allow a much smaller price to be paid for an honest mistake, while, hopefully anyway, would not allow widespread abuse of the refund procedure.

 

[Flamingo]

If I understand Yorkie correctly, the most unfair aspect of forgetting a railcard is that someone could have bought a railcard discounted Advance fare and, having forgotten to bring their railcard, could then be charged a full anytime fare by virtue of not having a valid ticket to travel. This could cost a few hundred quid, and the person would already have paid soemthing for their travel that is not taken into account.

I agree that allowing one refund per calendar year, on production of the valid, in date railcard along with both original sets of tickets, minus an admin charge, would appear to be a reasonable course of action. Perhaps the railcard itself could be endorsed rather than setting up a new database (assuming one doesn't already exist!)

This would allow a much smaller price to be paid for an honest mistake, while, hopefully anyway, would not allow widespread abuse of the refund procedure.

Write to your MP and suggest it. The T&C are National Rail, it needs the Dept to change them in consultation with the TOC's. Don't expect anything to happen quickly, though!

 

[Greenback]

I don't expect anything to happen! I merely added my thoughts to the suggestion to address Yorkie's concerns and try and safegurad TOC revenue from chancers!

 

[b0b]

Let's put it this way, the TOCs clearly think that the current system is the more profitable than giving out goodwill gestures, otherwise they would change the rules.

 

[Greenback]

Iagree, but the point was to tilt the balance a little less towards the TOC's, and a little bit mroe towards the genuine but frogetful passenger! As has been said, it would have to be lobbied for through DfT!

 

[reb0118]

Out of curiosity, I've occasionally been issued with SCR-Y tickets (rather than Y-P) for my 16-25 (RBS-issued) railcard. I suppose that, because it's a bank issued one, the ticket people assume that it is a Scottish Youth Railcard.

Now, the discounts the same, but could that potentially get me into bother?

You cannot purchase SYR discounted tickets from a TVM so any tickets issued to you must have come from a booking office or been issued on train. Therefore any issuing error is NOT your fault. If and when your tickets are checked most guards would show discretion as the correct fare has been paid. I suppose in theory your ticket should be withdrawn and a zero fare excess issued to cover your journey - is it worth the paperwork?

As an aside the above scenario would help to balance out all the folk with SYR
cards purchasing YP tickets out the TVM and depriving ScotRail of the "missing" third of the fare that we get back from the Government.

 

[scotsman]

It sounds crazy but, in Scotland, I just board the train and get on my merry way. But, in England, I feel like I have to think twice about what I'm doing. Maybe it's just down to the fact that I'm in a different country, and have read too many stories on this site!

He's right y'know!

Although last time the Northern Conductress (I think she is an enthusiast too, known as Traingirl or something similar on other sites) had to ask me where I was going when I used a YRK - DON ticket via SBY.

 

[Lampshade]

He's right y'know!

Although last time the Northern Conductress (I think she is an enthusiast too, known as Traingirl or something similar on other sites) had to ask me where I was going when I used a YRK - DON ticket via SBY.

Might that be ticketgal? I believe she's on this forum.

 

[scotsman]

Might that be ticketgal? I believe she's on this forum.

I believe it might

 

[John @ home]

I suppose in theory your ticket should be withdrawn and a zero fare excess issued to cover your journey

Whenever I have had an Excess Fare ticket issued to me, the original ticket has not been withdrawn but the Excess Fare ticket has stated something like "VALID ONLY WITH TICKET 75384" or "VALID ONLY WITH REF HC5KG8H4". Is this not always the case?