Wrexham redouble

[TDK]

Has I understand it,NR in its contracts has the ability to extend deadlines without penalty, running six months late and counting on a £44M job would not be tolerated in the real world, I also recall the ETMS on the Cambrian was two years late.

Yes you can have a timetable change at any time, but notice must be given first in this instance its franchise service,so WG and stakeholders have to be consulted.

A timetable change would merit a rostering change and that needs a lot of notice
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I have read, the work to upgrade the unaltered 60mph single track sections was axed from the contract, to get the costs down to the number NR first thought of.
That means only the new track sections, and the short jointed track sections which are being replaced, are being built for 90mph.
The rest (Pulford-Rossett southbound, Balderton-Saltney Jn northbound) will stay at the exisiting 60mph.
Hopefully when they have reviewed the plans a more consistent line speed will be achieved over the whole line.
As of last week, the 2 jointed track sections which are 50 years old (north of Rossett and under the A55) are still there.
I'm not sure what work they were doing last night which overran this morning.

Surely the line speed between Rossett and Saltney Junction will be 90mph in both directions with the 60 from the new Rossett Junction to Just after Wrexham General with the 50mph over Wrexham North junction on the up remaining and the 30mph over down. Why would they have 60mph in one direction? Surely all the track between Rossett and Slatney is being renewed? If not what is the point of the redouble in the first place?

 

[The Planner]

No it isnt all being renewed and LNW has concisely explained it with the correct speeds. I dont diasagree that its a bit bonkers..

 

[merlodlliw]

A timetable change would merit a rostering change and that needs a lot of notice
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Surely the line speed between Rossett and Saltney Junction will be 90mph in both directions with the 60 from the new Rossett Junction to Just after Wrexham General with the 50mph over Wrexham North junction on the up remaining and the 30mph over down. Why would they have 60mph in one direction? Surely all the track between Rossett and Slatney is being renewed? If not what is the point of the redouble in the first place?

[/QUOTE t

Im not an engineer, but the old track has been slewed,and some of it will remain so I understand, have a look at the article on this weeks North Wales rail newsboard redouble update,the original drawings,now axed showed new track all the way,others may know more.


Later I have just seen the Planners confirmation, that a good section of old track will remain. Meaning 60 mph is built in on one track,90mph on the other.



http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[berneyarms]

What a waste - renders the scheme somewhat pointless - do I sense another question for the WG to answer, along the lines of what precise benefit this will deliver in the context of additional services and why it has been cut back?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Im not an engineer, but the old track has been slewed,and some of it will remain so I understand, have a look at the article on this weeks North Wales rail newsboard redouble update,the original drawings,now axed showed new track all the way,others may know more.

The only bit slewed (to the east) was the section under the A483 which was placed in the centre of the solum when the line was singled.
South of Broad Oak the single line was the old Up, and north of Balderton was the old Down.
Apart from the ancient jointed sections, these will remain untouched (and 60mph).

 

[merlodlliw]

The only bit slewed (to the east) was the section under the A483 which was placed in the centre of the solum when the line was singled.
South of Broad Oak the single line was the old Up, and north of Balderton was the old Down.
Apart from the ancient jointed sections, these will remain untouched (and 60mph).

Thanks for the info,I think the WG Audit Commission should investigate the value for taxpayers, BR did a better job of singling the line all those years ago on a weekend,dare I say, than this political attempt to play trains, its a shambles with no benefit to the passenger,I despair.

Bob

 

[Chester1]

What a waste - renders the scheme somewhat pointless - do I sense another question for the WG to answer, along the lines of what precise benefit this will deliver in the context of additional services and why it has been cut back?

The upgrade massively increases capacity which is what it is about. There is too much politics involved in the services that may use it so its too hard to say for sure. There will be at least one extra Holyhead-Cardiff service every couple of hours and likely a service to Liverpool via the Halton Curve. The upgrade was justified there needing to be a half hourly service between Chester and Wrexham so the WA can cut back a 12 minutely bus service and to strengthen North-South links, one way or another that will be achieved.

Thanks for the info,I think the WG Audit Commission should investigate the value for taxpayers, BR did a better job of singling the line all those years ago,dare I say, than this political attempt to play trains, its a shambles with no benefit to the passenger,I despair.

Bob

It delivers all the capacity that will probably ever be needed so its not awful value but your right about the organisation being a shambles. If the new track is roughly half new on the up and half new on the down because of the way the line was singled won't that mean that the journey time each direction will be roughly equal? Its a shame that the old track isnt being upgraded to 90mph but 60mph is a reasonable speed for that type of line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The upgrade massively increases capacity which is what it is about. There is too much politics involved in the services that may use it so its too hard to say for sure. There will be at least one extra Holyhead-Cardiff service every couple of hours and likely a service to Liverpool via the Halton Curve. The upgrade was justified there needing to be a half hourly service between Chester and Wrexham so the WA can cut back a 12 minutely bus service and to strengthen North-South links, one way or another that will be achieved.

It delivers all the capacity that will probably ever be needed so its not awful value but your right about the organisation being a shambles. If the new track is roughly half new on the up and half new on the down because of the way the line was singled won't that mean that the journey time each direction will be roughly equal? Its a shame that the old track isnt being upgraded to 90mph but 60mph is a reasonable speed for that type of line.

60mph is pitiful in 2015 after spending £45 million.
75mph should be the absolute minimum, preferably 90/100mph which all the trains can reach (Chester-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton).
It's dismal watching the cars speed past on the parallel A483.

The additional capacity is fine, but I will despair if it is just used for yet another North/South Wales service (of which there are too many already).
No commitments have yet been made to any services on the Halton Curve.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Agree the whole thing is a total shambles, and I think someone in WG will get a roasting when it examined by committee of AMs, and also has a proper audit. The sooner this happens the better.

 

[merlodlliw]

The upgrade massively increases capacity which is what it is about. There is too much politics involved in the services that may use it so its too hard to say for sure. There will be at least one extra Holyhead-Cardiff service every couple of hours and likely a service to Liverpool via the Halton Curve. The upgrade was justified there needing to be a half hourly service between Chester and Wrexham so the WA can cut back a 12 minutely bus service and to strengthen North-South links, one way or another that will be achieved.



It delivers all the capacity that will probably ever be needed so its not awful value but your right about the organisation being a shambles. If the new track is roughly half new on the up and half new on the down because of the way the line was singled won't that mean that the journey time each direction will be roughly equal? Its a shame that the old track isnt being upgraded to 90mph but 60mph is a reasonable speed for that type of line.

But it does not deliver all the extra capacity,one extra train Wrexham to Chester every two hours is nothing like a proposed half hourly service that may well be required in the future, the £44M job is only increasing one extra path an hour from 3 to 4,has it stands there is no path available for an Halton Curve service and the Cardiff service only certain politicians want, no thought has been taken of local passenger needs,or where they want to go, Extra Capacity was never on the agenda or requested by WG for this job has explained by NR staff at drop in sessions last year,the extra path is only by default,local Politicians or anyone up here were never consulted and are trying to get extra dueling between Gresford Junction and General station to try & get some extra capacity & a path,before its too late.

 

[edwin_m]

Politicians or anyone up here were never consulted and are trying to get extra dueling between Gresford Junction and General station

That's a good suggestion - they should resolve their differences with pistols at dawn.

 

[Gareth Marston]

But it does not deliver all the extra capacity,one extra train Wrexham to Chester every two hours is nothing like a proposed half hourly service that may well be required in the future, the £44M job is only increasing one extra path an hour from 3 to 4,has it stands there is no path available for an Halton Curve service and the Cardiff service only certain politicians want, no thought has been taken of local passenger needs,or where they want to go, Extra Capacity was never on the agenda or requested by WG for this job has explained by NR staff at drop in sessions last year,the extra path is only by default,local Politicians or anyone up here were never consulted and are trying to get extra dueling between Gresford Junction and General station to try & get some extra capacity & a path,before its too late.

All WG communication has been clear its a project to increase journey time and capacity between North and South Wales. They only need 6/7 paths a day extra in each direction to do this.

 

[merlodlliw]

All WG communication has been clear its a project to increase journey time and capacity between North and South Wales. They only need 6/7 paths a day extra in each direction to do this.

The project was suppose to deliver faster journey times between North & South,but even this has fallen off the cliff, with 60MPH remaining on the Saltney/Rossett section line and then straight up Gresford Bank to Wrexham General.
The paths you quote are probably three extra to/from Cardiff' a day,which nobody up here wants,plus no consideration taken for any future freight movements,
Sunday is a good example of need for Holyhead/Cardiff, two trains in each direction will run today via Wrexham, the rest to/from the West Midlands to Chester.
The Gowerton redouble was done properly,but that's another story,with almost the same costings.
The report from the WG North Wales transport Task Force Quango will be interesting,which I understand supports extra services to Liverpool and Manchester,

 

[The Planner]

Glad Gareth has brought back the original plan for this, it was all a N-S thing to make it quicker and remove the problem of having to go by Crewe. As a non funded project (ie: the WG not stumping up cash) it would never have got anywhere as I have said before.

 

[merlodlliw]

Glad Gareth has brought back the original plan for this, it was all a N-S thing to make it quicker and remove the problem of having to go by Crewe. As a non funded project (ie: the WG not stumping up cash) it would never have got anywhere as I have said before.

The original plan, the NR drawings show this was to also redouble Gresford Junction to Wrexham General, to add capacity.

It was cut back at the whim of one WG Minister without taking any advice from anyone,the redouble has it stands adds no time to the route,as for the routing away from Crewe, all nine trains to/from Cardiff were in operation via Wrexham before any work commenced between Saltney & Rossett.

Has for NR not wanting the job, well this as become obvious now, however NR at some time would have to replace 50 year old rail,but with WG paying its like Christmas.

 

[Chester1]

I thought that the WG had annouced a few weeks ago that it had found more money to go back to the original plan including the 2 miles around Rossett?! In which case the bottle neck will only be 2 miles long which is 2 mins at 60mph, so the capacity of the line will be far more than will ever likely be needed. Half hourly is needed now and I doubt it will ever need a service level above 4tph which it will be able to support.

There will be more North-South services. Its my favourite example of why a nationalised rail system could easily end up costing more through increasing the amount of stupid political decisions on how the railway should be run. I know nothing has been annouced about what services will use the Halton Curve yet but there is a good chance there will be something from either Cardiff or Wrexham. Personally, Id reduce Cardiff to Holyhead to one every two hours because there isn't demand for more but that will never happen. Extending, Northern Rail services on the mid Cheshire Line to terminate at Wrexham Central (there is linking track to do this). Once the pacers have gone it would provide a good level of competition between Northern and Arriva on Wrexham-Chester/Manchester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Extending, Northern Rail services on the mid Cheshire Line to terminate at Wrexham Central (there is linking track to do this).

There is no direct southbound link from Chester into Wrexham Gen P4 and Central.
The only link between GW and GC lines at General is northbound via P3, so you need a double shunt to get from Chester to Central (at Watery Road siding and at Rhosddu).
There isn't even a direct route into General P2 either, to enable reversal northbound.
There is track in this case (from the single line), but no signalling.

 

[krus_aragon]

There is no direct southbound link from Chester into Wrexham Gen P4 and Central.
The only link between GW and GC lines at General is northbound via P3, so you need a double shunt to get from Chester to Central (at Watery Road siding and at Rhosddu).
There isn't even a direct route into General P2 either, to enable reversal northbound.
There is track in this case (from the single line), but no signalling.

And likewise, there is no signalling provision for trains to depart northbound from platform 1. A browse of RealtimeTrains to follow the empty stock for Virgin's morning service from Wrexham illustrates the current procedure.

 

[merlodlliw]

I thought that the WG had annouced a few weeks ago that it had found more money to go back to the original plan including the 2 miles around Rossett?! In which case the bottle neck will only be 2 miles long which is 2 mins at 60mph, so the capacity of the line will be far more than will ever likely be needed. Half hourly is needed now and I doubt it will ever need a service level above 4tph which it will be able to support.

No WG announced £12M for an undisclosed North Wales railway plan, this £12M is a quid pro que for the Libs not opposing the budget for 2015/16 in the Senedd.

I can assure you no decision as been made where the money will be spent,the Libs are looking at redoubling Gresford Junction to General station for extra capacity, no extra money is ear marked for Rossett out of the £12M.

 

[krus_aragon]

No WG announced £12M for an undisclosed North Wales railway plan, this £12M is a quid pro que for the Libs not opposing the budget for 2015/16 in the Senedd.

quickly double-checks the Bangor-Llangefni GRIP-1 costings...

Nope, not that.

Mind you, it's a fair few decades since the Liberals were a significant political force on Anglesey, so I'd have been dumbfounded if it was that.

 

[Penmorfa]

Personally, Id reduce Cardiff to Holyhead to one every two hours because there isn't demand for more but that will never happen.

There is only a Cardiff - Holyhead service roughly every two hours, on the other hour the service is Birmingham - Holyhead.

 

[TDK]

There is only a Cardiff - Holyhead service roughly every two hours, on the other hour the service is Birmingham - Holyhead.

The HHD Birmingham route is far more profitable than HHD CDF

 

[merlodlliw]

The HHD Birmingham route is far more profitable than HHD CDF

Totally agree with that TDK, but do Politicians care.

I note the old WAG 2, which until December ran non stop Shrewsbury to Newport from Llandudno, now stops at stations between Salop & Newport,
Previous it carried a handful,between Salop & Newport,has ATW now pay for the train,a sensible move.

 

[po8crg]

I wonder if a Liverpool-Cardiff service via Halton Curve would be a useful use of a path?

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is only a Cardiff - Holyhead service roughly every two hours, on the other hour the service is Birmingham - Holyhead.

I wonder if a Liverpool-Cardiff service via Halton Curve would be a useful use of a path?

I think it might be sensible to cut the Holyhead-Birmingham service back to just Wrexham-Birmingham and replace the Holyhead-Cardiff every 2hrs stopper with an hourly Cardiff-Liverpool stopper instead. That way it keeps everything on the north Wales coast (expect Y Gerallt Gymro) running to either Crewe or Manchester to help the case for electrification. Would need extra diesel stock in the meantime though, for example to cover the increased CDF-Chester frequency and extension to Liverpool.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Totally agree with that TDK, but do Politicians care.
I note the old WAG 2, which until December ran non stop Shrewsbury to Newport from Llandudno, now stops at stations between Salop & Newport,
Previous it carried a handful,between Salop & Newport,has ATW now pay for the train,a sensible move.

It still is non-stop. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C30403/2015/01/19/advanced
I was on it last week - 2-car 175.
Like me, most people got off at Shrewsbury and waited for the Cambrian to Birmingham.

 

[merlodlliw]

It still is non-stop. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C30403/2015/01/19/advanced
I was on it last week - 2-car 175.
Like me, most people got off at Shrewsbury and waited for the Cambrian to Birmingham.

Must have been looking at another site, perhaps from next May, you are of course correct,I could never understand ATW continuing this service non stop along the Marches after WG stopped the funding,ATW were well aware of so few using it.

 

[TDK]

I wonder if a Liverpool-Cardiff service via Halton Curve would be a useful use of a path?

Wales and Borders used to run a service to Liverpool but it was taken from them when ATW won the franchise and was given to LM, all the time ATW, a company that runs for profit has the franchise they will obviously want to run the most profitable routes, that is what business is all about, making money. With Merseyrail services running every 15 minutes the current change at Chester is sufficient for a Liverpool - Cardiff service. There is just too much emphasis on these direct routes from Wales when it comes to franchised companies.

 

[po8crg]

Aren't there going to be additional Chester-Liverpool trains via Halton Curve anyway? If there are also going to be additional Wrexham-Chester trains, it might well be smart to run them through.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Aren't there going to be additional Chester-Liverpool trains via Halton Curve anyway? If there are also going to be additional Wrexham-Chester trains, it might well be smart to run them through.

You might think so, but somebody has to find the subsidy to operate any new services.
There's no DMU stock at the moment anyway.
We await the Northern and Wales & Borders new franchise specs for more details.