Wrexham redouble

[paul1609]

Surely the real question here is why a small regional station with relatively few services requires 4 platforms any way? It's the same number of domestic platforms as Ashford international!

 

[The Planner]

Why close them, probably cost just as much to do that as to maintain them.

 

[PHILIPE]

Surely the real question here is why a small regional station with relatively few services requires 4 platforms any way? It's the same number of domestic platforms as Ashford international!

One of the Platforms (4) used to be part of another station (Wrexham Exchange) which was the former GC platform and was, at the time, one of 2 Platforms at the time. The line ran more or less alongside the current main line but this platform was later "adopted" by Wrexham General station and numbered Platform 4. Access is via a footbridge from the other platforms.
The platform is used exclusively by trains between Wrexham Central and Bidston and has no direct access to or from any other route.

 

[merlodlliw]

Surely the real question here is why a small regional station with relatively few services requires 4 platforms any way? It's the same number of domestic platforms as Ashford international!

Ashford has dual tracks, platform four at General is singletrack Bidston only ,platforms 1 & 3 can only run up trains,platform 2 is the only down line to Chester.Platform three is the only link into platform four for Bidston trains

As for small, Wrexham is the largest town in North Wales, single tracks prevent more usage and potential.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for small, Wrexham is the largest town in North Wales, single tracks prevent more usage and potential.

I am pleased to see this information being submitted, as there will be a number of forum members who are not aware of the operational track use at that particular railway station.

Wrexham is indeed the largest town in North Wales and there again, there will be a number of forum members unaware of this fact.

 

[kieron]

Surely the real question here is why a small regional station with relatively few services requires 4 platforms any way?

Surely the real answer is because there is currently no operational requirement for the two south-facing bay platforms?

While the fact that a train has to reverse twice to travel between Chester and Wrexham Central isn't ideal (platforms 3 and 4 are bi-directional, but have no direct access to the line towards Chester), nothing is being done with the points at Wrexham General during the current works.

If they're not doing it now when there are staff and equipment on site, I don't see them doing anything for the foreseeable future. I think they'll have to find another solution to the power problem.

 

[PHILIPE]

Surely the real answer is because there is currently no operational requirement for the two south-facing bay platforms?

While the fact that a train has to reverse twice to travel between Chester and Wrexham Central isn't ideal (platforms 3 and 4 are bi-directional, but have no direct access to the line towards Chester), nothing is being done with the points at Wrexham General during the current works.

If they're not doing it now when there are staff and equipment on site, I don't see them doing anything for the foreseeable future. I think they'll have to find another solution to the power problem.

The Southbound bays have no platform numbers and are used only for any odd and rare stabling, although W&SR Railway used them for stabling and servicing when they were in existence. They no longer have any use as platforms but their presence has no relation to the remainder of the station.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Surely the real answer is because there is currently no operational requirement for the two south-facing bay platforms?

While the fact that a train has to reverse twice to travel between Chester and Wrexham Central isn't ideal (platforms 3 and 4 are bi-directional, but have no direct access to the line towards Chester), nothing is being done with the points at Wrexham General during the current works.

If they're not doing it now when there are staff and equipment on site, I don't see them doing anything for the foreseeable future. I think they'll have to find another solution to the power problem.

The access from the south onto the Bidston line is via Platform 3 and sees regular freight on a daily basis. The cost of altering it using a Contractor and blockades probably far outweighs the cost of maintaining the platform, it's on an island with 2 anyway.

 

[merlodlliw]

Surely the real answer is because there is currently no operational requirement for the two south-facing bay platforms?

While the fact that a train has to reverse twice to travel between Chester and Wrexham Central isn't ideal (platforms 3 and 4 are bi-directional, but have no direct access to the line towards Chester), nothing is being done with the points at Wrexham General during the current works.

If they're not doing it now when there are staff and equipment on site, I don't see them doing anything for the foreseeable future. I think they'll have to find another solution to the power problem.

The two bay platforms facing South were last used by W and S,before that they were the terminus from Barmouth via Ruiabon, platforms 3 & 4 are indeed bi directional, three is Bi directional facing South & Bidston unfortunate, platform four is Central; to Bidston only.
However there is a light at the end of the tunnel with the line at Gresford Junction and General, Discussions are now taking place with WG & NR to solve capacity.
The key is to get more access to Chester, the busy direction.

 

[paul1609]

Ashford has dual tracks, platform four at General is singletrack Bidston only ,platforms 1 & 3 can only run up trains,platform 2 is the only down line to Chester.Platform three is the only link into platform four for Bidston trains

As for small, Wrexham is the largest town in North Wales, single tracks prevent more usage and potential.

I didn't say that Wrexham was a small town but that it's a small regional station which it undoubtedly is.
3 platforms would appear to be generous provision for current or foreseeable services. A lift for platform 4 would appear something that could have been avoided by routing the services to other platforms

 

[PHILIPE]

I didn't say that Wrexham was a small town but that it's a small regional station which it undoubtedly is.
3 platforms would appear to be generous provision for current or foreseeable services. A lift for platform 4 would appear something that could have been avoided by routing the services to other platforms

As has been explained in much detail already, platform 4 is the only platform that can be used for trains between Wrexham Central and Bidston so they can't be diverted to another platform.

 

[kieron]

The Southbound bays have no platform numbers and are used only for any odd and rare stabling, although W&SR Railway used them for stabling and servicing when they were in existence. They no longer have any use as platforms but their presence has no relation to the remainder of the station.

I know that. paul1609 seemed to be asking "Why does Wrexham General have 4 platforms?" I was just giving an answer of "Because it doesn't need 6 now". That's all. Coming up with a figure for how many platforms a station needs without looking at the trains which are scheduled to pass through it and what you would do with each of them seems pretty odd to me in the first place.

The access from the south onto the Bidston line is via Platform 3 and sees regular freight on a daily basis. The cost of altering it using a Contractor and blockades probably far outweighs the cost of maintaining the platform, it's on an island with 2 anyway.

Maintenance costs aren't the issue here. The issue is that there's a useful improvement which has been delayed significantly owing to an additional fixed cost which wasn't in the budget.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the operational costs of the current layout. For instance, the 5:45 from Chester reaches Wrexham General at 6:02 on platform 1. It leaves again from platform 3 at 6:33 bound for Bidston. That's half an hour for two staff (no to mention the running costs for half an hour of a Sprinter going nowhere much), without even getting the train as far as Wrexham Central. None of the three other journey to/from the Wrexham-Bidston line are especially fast.

I don't know, but I doubt that anything like this would happen if the train could pull directly into platforms 3 or 4 from the Chester direction (something which seems plausible to me as the four lines run parallel for over half a mile north of Wrexham General).

It would also help any theoretical Chester shuttle stay out of the way of other trains. I'm not sure it would make it easier to close platform 4, though, as that's built on quite a wide curve despite the low speed limit.

 

[Tracky]

The time involved in the shunt is minimal.

With improved capacity over the single line the empty unit may be able to leave Chester later. Having said that, it's always good to have some padding in the timetable as it allows for things to go wrong, pilotman working on the single line, delays etc. It also allows the crew to make a brew, grab a bite, and the guard to open the train up so passengers aren't left standing on the platform waiting.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know that. paul1609 seemed to be asking "Why does Wrexham General have 4 platforms?" I was just giving an answer of "Because it doesn't need 6 now". That's all. Coming up with a figure for how many platforms a station needs without looking at the trains which are scheduled to pass through it and what you would do with each of them seems pretty odd to me in the first place.

Maintenance costs aren't the issue here. The issue is that there's a useful improvement which has been delayed significantly owing to an additional fixed cost which wasn't in the budget.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the operational costs of the current layout. For instance, the 5:45 from Chester reaches Wrexham General at 6:02 on platform 1. It leaves again from platform 3 at 6:33 bound for Bidston. That's half an hour for two staff (no to mention the running costs for half an hour of a Sprinter going nowhere much), without even getting the train as far as Wrexham Central. None of the three other journey to/from the Wrexham-Bidston line are especially fast.

I don't know, but I doubt that anything like this would happen if the train could pull directly into platforms 3 or 4 from the Chester direction (something which seems plausible to me as the four lines run parallel for over half a mile north of Wrexham General).

It would also help any theoretical Chester shuttle stay out of the way of other trains. I'm not sure it would make it easier to close platform 4, though, as that's built on quite a wide curve despite the low speed limit.

It's just how the TOC gets units on the Bidston line from Chester where they overnight. VT run an ecs from Barton under Needwood to Shrewsbury, ATW run some very early mornings from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli/Barmouth that are in public tt but essentially ecs moves to position stock.

 

[merlodlliw]

I know that. paul1609 seemed to be asking "Why does Wrexham General have 4 platforms?" I was just giving an answer of "Because it doesn't need 6 now". That's all. Coming up with a figure for how many platforms a station needs without looking at the trains which are scheduled to pass through it and what you would do with each of them seems pretty odd to me in the first place.

Maintenance costs aren't the issue here. The issue is that there's a useful improvement which has been delayed significantly owing to an additional fixed cost which wasn't in the budget.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the operational costs of the current layout. For instance, the 5:45 from Chester reaches Wrexham General at 6:02 on platform 1. It leaves again from platform 3 at 6:33 bound for Bidston. That's half an hour for two staff (no to mention the running costs for half an hour of a Sprinter going nowhere much), without even getting the train as far as Wrexham Central. None of the three other journey to/from the Wrexham-Bidston line are especially fast.

I don't know, but I doubt that anything like this would happen if the train could pull directly into platforms 3 or 4 from the Chester direction (something which seems plausible to me as the four lines run parallel for over half a mile north of Wrexham General).

It would also help any theoretical Chester shuttle stay out of the way of other trains. I'm not sure it would make it easier to close platform 4, though, as that's built on quite a wide curve despite the low speed limit.

The Chester 150 bound for Bidston,waits 30 minutes, as the path from 0600 is taken by a down to Chester, due to the single track, even with the five miles or so redoubled,this will only allow perhaps one extra path 4 instead of 3 an hour, as future capacity was not even looked at when WG signed off the contract with NR,all hell is letting rip over this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't say that Wrexham was a small town but that it's a small regional station which it undoubtedly is.
3 platforms would appear to be generous provision for current or foreseeable services. A lift for platform 4 would appear something that could have been avoided by routing the services to other platforms

No you did not say Wrexham was a small town, General may appear a small regional station, but the population dwafs all other towns in North Wales,the industrial estate down the road is one of the largest in Europe,only Trafford Park in the UK is bigger, but Trafford Park has railways to serve it.

Has for the lift, well now the unused roof is leaking, so more problems,has for four platforms, three sees freight trains every day, I dont see how the number of platforms can be reduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am pleased to see this information being submitted, as there will be a number of forum members who are not aware of the operational track use at that particular railway station.

Wrexham is indeed the largest town in North Wales and there again, there will be a number of forum members unaware of this fact.

I am sure many forum members are unaware Wrexham is the most populated town or even City, in either North or Mid Wales.
I am also sure many Welsh Government Ministers are also unaware of this fact.

 

[TDK]

The two bay platforms facing South were last used by W and S,before that they were the terminus from Barmouth via Ruiabon, platforms 3 & 4 are indeed bi directional, three is Bi directional facing South & Bidston unfortunate, platform four is Central; to Bidston only.
However there is a light at the end of the tunnel with the line at Gresford Junction and General, Discussions are now taking place with WG & NR to solve capacity.
The key is to get more access to Chester, the busy direction.

The Up Bay Sidings platforms are used every weekday if the steel train is running through platform 3 to stable the Shrewsbury service that departs at about 20.47 this unit is shunted to the bays at about 18.47

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I am sure many forum members are unaware Wrexham is the most populated town or even City, in either North or Mid Wales.
I am also sure many Welsh Government Ministers are also unaware of this fact.

I can't believe that forum members are unaware of this fact....you are constantly reminding everyone of it!

 

[PHILIPE]

The Up Bay Sidings platforms are used every weekday if the steel train is running through platform 3 to stable the Shrewsbury service that departs at about 20.47 this unit is shunted to the bays at about 18.47

According to Real Time Trains, the Unit shunts out from Pl. 3 to Exchange Jn and back to Platform 3, departing thence for Shrewsbury. But, what it does in practice may do something different as you suggest.

 

[paul1609]

The Chester 150 bound for Bidston,waits 30 minutes, as the path from 0600 is taken by a down to Chester, due to the single track, even with the five miles or so redoubled,this will only allow perhaps one extra path 4 instead of 3 an hour, as future capacity was not even looked at when WG signed off the contract with NR,all hell is letting rip over this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No you did not say Wrexham was a small town, General may appear a small regional station, but the population dwafs all other towns in North Wales,the industrial estate down the road is one of the largest in Europe,only Trafford Park in the UK is bigger, but Trafford Park has railways to serve it.

Has for the lift, well now the unused roof is leaking, so more problems,has for four platforms, three sees freight trains every day, I dont see how the number of platforms can be reduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I am sure many forum members are unaware Wrexham is the most populated town or even City, in either North or Mid Wales.
I am also sure many Welsh Government Ministers are also unaware of this fact.

Wrexham County has according to the best figures I can find a population of 134,000. That puts it on a par in a UK context with Hastings. It is to all intents a suburb of the Chester Urban area. The Welsh border is largely irrelevant and always will be. a

 

[TDK]

According to Real Time Trains, the Unit shunts out from Pl. 3 to Exchange Jn and back to Platform 3, departing thence for Shrewsbury. But, what it does in practice may do something different as you suggest.

The unit actually shunts from platform 4 ECS to platform 3 via Exchange Junction as it come ECS from Central then up to the other side of the box behind the GPL or into the loop and then into the Up bay platforms, this only happens if the Steel train is running. It then is shunted from the Up bay platform to Platform 3 to form the service to Shrewsbury, what Realtime trains says and what actually happens is sometimes quite different.

 

[merlodlliw]

Wrexham County has according to the best figures I can find a population of 134,000. That puts it on a par in a UK context with Hastings. It is to all intents a suburb of the Chester Urban area. The Welsh border is largely irrelevant and always will be. a

Well if you consider Wrexham is a suburb of Chester, we have a poor rail service to reach it.However we have more in common with Chester than Cardiff.
Wrexham Town is what I am referring to, not its County.
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I can't believe that forum members are unaware of this fact....you are constantly reminding everyone of it!

See thread 665, written by Paul, I referenced 665, I did not write 665.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well if you consider Wrexham is a suburb of Chester, we have a poor rail service to reach it.However we have more in common with Chester than Cardiff.
Wrexham Town is what I am referring to, not its County.
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See thread 665, written by Paul, I referenced 665, I did not write 665.

Saltney in Flintshire is a de facto suburb of Chester as the two are continuously built up.

 

[berneyarms]

Mike Vaughan in his letter, said if VT did not run the service,ATW would step in, however this is not good enough and requires someone to check if it is running,the previous timetables showed this ATW 2022 out of Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham,this was put on due to over 100 stuck on Chester station for up to two hours.ATW put this service on because VT told them it would not run in & out of Wrexham on public Holidays, ATW seem to have forgotten this,a problem with new management.
As for the open access train picking up at Wrexham for Shrewsbury at 0732,it is still a loss of a direct service,also the Open Access can be withdrawn at any time, it also makes a farce of any line time increase North/South due to the part redoubling in my opinion,stopping at Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen will add minutes to the service.

Realtime trains shows a 20:22 ATW service as running from Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham on New Years Day, so perhaps we can end this debate now about bank holiday services being cancelled.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Realtime trains shows a 20:22 ATW service as running from Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham on New Years Day, so perhaps we can end this debate now about bank holiday services being cancelled.

National Rail Enquiries has the VT and the ATW service running both leaving Chester at 2022!

 

[berneyarms]

Well we know that the VT service does not operate!

 

[merlodlliw]

Realtime trains shows a 20:22 ATW service as running from Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham on New Years Day, so perhaps we can end this debate now about bank holiday services being cancelled.

Rail users who don't have access or know about rtt web pages, but use the ATW timetables web or hard copy,wont know this train is running.
If it does run, excellent,some one has been listening.however it did not run on Xmas Eve.The local rail user group have complained to ATW, about the omission,I note it is not down to run on New Years Eve either.
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Well we know that the VT service does not operate!

But the general public who read the VT Dec/May timetable will see its down to run, its time VT sorted this out and put BHX in its general timetables.

 

[berneyarms]

Rail users who don't have access or know about rtt web pages, but use the ATW timetables web or hard copy,wont know this train is running.
If it does run, excellent,some one has been listening.however it did not run on Xmas Eve.The local rail user group have complained to ATW, about the omission,I note it is not down to run on New Years Eve either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But the general public who read the VT Dec/May timetable will see its down to run, its time VT sorted this out and put BHX in its general timetables.

Unfortunately errors happen in timetable compilation - they shouldn't but they do.

Both Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve are not normal travel days, and I certainly would always expect services to be winding down as the evening starts to kick in. I don't necessarily expect that level of information to be in the normal printed timetable. Similarly on a bank holiday I would double check before I travelled online beforehand.

At the risk of repeating myself I would think most people these days look at look at journey planners rather than timetables.

They don't need to be able to look at realtime trains website, but rather look at the journey planner.

I really think you're blowing this particular argument out of proportion - I'd agree with you if people were going to be left behind but they are not - the train is scheduled to run on 1 January.

 

[merlodlliw]

Unfortunately errors happen in timetable compilation - they shouldn't but they do.

Both Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve are not normal travel days, and I certainly would always expect services to be winding down as the evening starts to kick in. I don't necessarily expect that level of information to be in the normal printed timetable. Similarly on a bank holiday I would double check before I travelled online beforehand.

At the risk of repeating myself I would think most people these days look at look at journey planners rather than timetables.

They don't need to be able to look at realtime trains website, but rather look at the journey planner.

I really think you're blowing this particular argument out of proportion - I'd agree with you if people were going to be left behind but they are not - the train is scheduled to run on 1 January.

The trains out of Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham on Xmas Eve and New Years Eve, departed/depart Chester at 1930 and 2122 leaving a two hour gap, so no winding down prior to 2122.
Not all passengers, with all respect,think of journey planner, or are even on the web, as ATW gave up their paths to VT,I Would expect a service departing Chester around 2022 that ATW ran previously.
Until this is properly sorted, ill complain, like everywhere else in Wales more services are required not less.

The errors in timetable compilation do occur, but this was brought to ATWs notice in September,so attention to details is failing.

 

[berneyarms]

The trains out of Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham on Xmas Eve and New Years Eve, departed/depart Chester at 1930 and 2122 leaving a two hour gap, so no winding down prior to 2122.
Not all passengers, with all respect,think of journey planner, or are even on the web, as ATW gave up their paths to VT,I Would expect a service departing Chester around 2022 that ATW ran previously.
Until this is properly sorted, ill complain, like everywhere else in Wales more services are required not less.

The errors in timetable compilation do occur, but this was brought to ATWs notice in September,so attention to details is failing.

Well I do think you're going a tad OTT about it.

You cannot expect everything as normal on either Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve. They are not normal days. Services wind down earlier than normal or operate at reduced levels across these islands on those days. Wrexham is no different to anywhere else in that regard.

And I don't think it unreasonable to expect that people would double check the journey planner for that information or indeed on bank holidays.

Printed timetables are no longer the main source of information for the vast majority of people - times have changed. There are very few people left with no access to the internet - I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here.

I'm not defending the mistakes, but as someone who has helped in proof-reading timetables in the past, they are something that can happen even with three or four people checking them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well I do think you're going a tad OTT about it.

You cannot expect everything as normal on either Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve. They are not normal days. Services wind down earlier than normal or operate at reduced levels across these islands on those days. Wrexham is no different to anywhere else in that regard.

And I don't think it unreasonable to expect that people would double check the journey planner for that information or indeed on bank holidays.

Printed timetables are no longer the main source of information for the vast majority of people - times have changed. There are very few people left with no access to the internet - I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here.


I'm not defending the mistakes, but as someone who has helped in proof-reading timetables in the past, they are something that can happen even with three or four people checking them.

Bobs point has always been that ATW gave up a franchised train path to VT (to try and scupper Wrexham and Shropshire) for some reason VT don't want it on a Bank Holiday so ATW should run the service on the bank holiday as they did before giving the path to VT. There has always been confusion in the printed and online planners over the Bank Holiday service seemingly at nearly every tt change.