Woodhead

[507 001]

Hi Guys,
If the Woodhead route hadn't closed, how much longer do we think it would have lasted as 1500v DC with 76's?
Would it not have been viable to build dual voltage capabilities into the 87s or the 90s in order to make the route more versatile? Or would it have been easier to re-energise at 25KV AC and be done with it?

Cheers
Rob

 

[Anon Mouse]

Personally, I would have imagined it would have been de-electrified

 

[Nonsense]

Interesting question. I would like to know more too as I'm interested in the crossover period while Piccadilly was dual voltage. Have tried searching on the web, without luck, many times for images of a EM1 and an AL1 in the same shot.

I would imagine though, that 1500v dc would have operated until utterly life expired, and then returned to diesel operations. Thats my guess anyway.

 

[DXMachina]

I can't imagine using 1970s electrical equipment to build DV capacity into UK loading gauge locomotives. They'd need to be too long and/or the equipment downsizing would limit power output excessively
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... Have tried searching on the web, without luck, many times for images of a EM1 and an AL1 in the same shot...

Possible at NRM York sometimes. You might think that cheating though

 

[507 001]

am I right in saying that the 92's have 1500v DC capability? Ironic really if they do.

 

[jopsuk]

to have remained electrified, it would almost certainly have been converted to 25kV AC, but I think the assessment above isn't far off the mark.

I do wonder if it had remained open and electrified if the MML would have been electrified throughout to connect.

 

[ainsworth74]

am I right in saying that the 92's have 1500v DC capability? Ironic really if they do.

Pretty sure they only have 25kV AC from OHLE and 750v DC from third rail. Eurostars however have 25kV AC, 3000v DC and 1500v DC (and formally 750v DC from third rail but the shoes have been removed for that).

 

[CosherB]

It would have been re-electrified at 25KV using the original gantries, as was the Altrincham line before Metrolink nicked it.

 

[Anon Mouse]

It would have been re-electrified at 25KV using the original gantries, as was the Altrincham line before Metrolink nicked it.

and still have expensive loco changes and pay for traction retention? maybe if the passenger stations had not of closed and they could have cascaded some EMU's do I think it would have been economical

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It would have been re-electrified at 25KV using the original gantries, as was the Altrincham line before Metrolink nicked it.

Like they already do as far as
Hadfield and Glossop

 

[lancastrian]

Hi Guys,
If the Woodhead route hadn't closed, how much longer do we think it would have lasted as 1500v DC with 76's?
Would it not have been viable to build dual voltage capabilities into the 87s or the 90s in order to make the route more versatile? Or would it have been easier to re-energise at 25KV AC and be done with it?

Cheers
Rob

Well after Woodhead was closed the remaining part of the line from Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop/Hadfield was converted to 25KV AC. It would not have been that difficult to have converted all of the electrified routes over the Woodhead Route. That would give an excelent electrified service between Manchester to Sheffield, as opposed to the Hope Valley route left today.

If the route had been kept it would have helped to promote the electrification of either the Midland Main Line, but more than likely the route through Worksop to Retford, conecting with the East Coast Line.

By the way the original Liverpool Street to Shenfield electrification was done to the same voltage as Woodhead, 1500 V DC and that was converted to 25KV AC. So why not Woodhead.

 

[Anon Mouse]

beacuse there was not the same level as traffic and no passenger work. Freight was in decline and most traffic concentrated on nearby duplicate lines. If it had of stayed open it would have been cheaper and more economical to use diesels only. Then I suspect after the Miners strike and mass closure of the Coal Mines I suspect it would have eventually closed in the mid to late 80's

 

[alanf]

Could container trains use the Woodhead route or are they out of gauge?

 

[table38]

Could container trains use the Woodhead route or are they out of gauge?

The 3rd tunnel was built to "European Guage (W12)" whatever that means, however I was also told many years ago that it was not permitted to run two class 506's through it at the same time as it would "knock all the door handles off the side"

 

[johnnychips]

The 3rd tunnel was built to "European Guage (W12)" whatever that means, however I was also told many years ago that it was not permitted to run two class 506's through it at the same time as it would "knock all the door handles off the side"

This is going back to living near Broadbottom as a kid, but I didn't think 506s had door handles.

EDIT. Half right. Just been on Google images. The passenger doors slide, but there are grab rails for the drivers' cab.

 

[MK Tom]

Like they already do as far as
Hadfield and Glossop

That didn't happen until after the Woodhead closed. It survived as DC until 1984.

 

[electra27000]

That didn't happen until after the Woodhead closed. It survived as DC until 1984.

The story goes that the DC contact cable (it was much thicker than it's AC equivalent) made BR enough to cover the cost of re-electrifying the line in the first place.

It's worth remembering that Beeching saw the benefit of the Woodhead route - but wanted to close the branch to Glossop - and planned to close the Hope Valley line instead. Ultimately, though, coal was the majority of the traffic that went over the line and with the collieries closing, a large part of that traffic would've disappeared - along with the need to keep it.

 

[ole man]

The change over from Yorkshire to Manchester was Wath sidings.

I have a original book from British Transport Commission, like our green book today and lists the electrified sections.

Manchester to Sheffield and Woodhouse
Penistone to Wath via Worsboro
Glossop Branch
Stalybridge to Dukinfield
Oldham, Ashton and Guide Bridge Branch and Ashton Moss sidings
Gorton and Fairfield to Reddish Elec Depot
Ashburys to Ardwick Goods Yard and the Midland Branch.

All services going onto Liverpool and elsewhere in the North West changed from electric to diesel at Godley Junction

All commuter services used platforms 1&2 at Manchester London Road

All the electrified lines were controlled from Penistone Electric Control

 

[CosherB]

and still have expensive loco changes and pay for traction retention? maybe if the passenger stations had not of closed and they could have cascaded some EMU's do I think it would have been economical

Anal retention? No idea what you mean by traction retention, but I'd envisage AC EMUs, electric loco hauled Man - Sheff Inter Cities, and 86 / 90-hauled freights using it.

Might have meant refurbing some of the older AC units for use on Woodhead as newer stuff took over on WCML, or even enlarging the 87 fleet when that was built to include sufficient locos to service Woodhead as well as WCML.

If they re-opened it today what stock would they use?

 

[tbtc]

What was the passenger frequency through Woodhead?

 

[Anon Mouse]

What was the passenger frequency through Woodhead?

At the time of closure, zero hence due to its reliance of coal traffic, if it had of stsyed open it would have closed mid to late 80's

 

[ole man]

The problem with the Woodhead route was as stated its reliance on coal, and the fact that hardly any passengers live between Hadfield and Penistone.
Still i think it's one of British Rails biggest mistakes, the line should of been mothballed, look at what a difference it would of made if still open and wired now.

 

[Anon Mouse]

The problem with the Woodhead route was as stated its reliance on coal, and the fact that hardly any passengers live between Hadfield and Penistone.
Still i think it's one of British Rails biggest mistakes, the line should of been mothballed, look at what a difference it would of made if still open and wired now.

Would it being mothballed of made any difference, look at the Leamside line. I agree it was a mistake, but there is no way it would have stayed open. However, if mothballed maybe it might have been re-opened by now. But in all honesty I doubt it as nice as the thought may have been!

 

[ole man]

I dont know why but there is loads of people who love this route, there is something magical about Woodhead Tunnel. I love going there on my bike from Hadfield to Penistone, you can still see traces of track and OHLE masts

 

[HSTEd]

Well if someone was trying to justify keeping it open you could have probably cut the Hope Valley line to just the stopper, singled bits of it and put everything else left over Woodhead.

The Woodhead electrification was life expired at closure so its probable any new electrification equipment would have been 25kV. (Especially if selling the conductor and replacing it with a lighter AWAC one really was such a boon).
However this would have likely required an electrified midland main line to be viable (to allow through trains to Manchester from London via the Midland Main Line)

So that died in 1979 along with the original GWML electrification proposal.

 

[O L Leigh]

The Woodhead electrification was life expired at closure so its probable any new electrification equipment would have been 25kV.

Parts of were in need of renewal, I'm sure. But it cannot have been "life expired" in it's entirety when other electrification schemes of the same vintage (or even older) are still in use today. All of the gantries were massively over-engineered, as can be seen on other 1960's and pre 1960's electrification schemes. It's more likely that BR managed it's decline with maintenance restricted to emergency repairs rather than renewals.

O L Leigh

 

[tbtc]

The problem with the Woodhead route was as stated its reliance on coal, and the fact that hardly any passengers live between Hadfield and Penistone

The same is true of every trans-pennine route though, there may be few people living high in the hills but there certainly are a lot living in the cities beyond them

 

[HSTEd]

Parts of were in need of renewal, I'm sure. But it cannot have been "life expired" in it's entirety when other electrification schemes of the same vintage (or even older) are still in use today. All of the gantries were massively over-engineered, as can be seen on other 1960's and pre 1960's electrification schemes. It's more likely that BR managed it's decline with maintenance restricted to emergency repairs rather than renewals.

O L Leigh

This is things like traction converters and so on more than the gantries, many of which are still in use today (out towards GLossop and Hadfield).

Replacing the line with 25kV would not really affect the gantries which indeed would last longer as they would be under drastically reduced loadings from the lighter, thinner cabling.

Additionally the Hope Valley line could have been reduced to maybe one or two passing loops between Dore and Stockport/Hazel Grove, perhaps even with RETB.

 

[TukayAway]

However this would have likely required an electrified midland main line to be viable (to allow through trains to Manchester from London via the Midland Main Line)

They could have ignored the Midland Main Line, used the line through Victoria, round the corner to Rotherham and on to Doncaster for the very soon to be electrified East Coast.

 

[HSTEd]

They could have ignored the Midland Main Line, used the line through Victoria, round the corner to Rotherham and on to Doncaster for the very soon to be electrified East Coast.

Through services to Manchester via Doncaster?