Woodhead

[Snapper]

The problem with the Woodhead route was as stated its reliance on coal, and the fact that hardly any passengers live between Hadfield and Penistone.
Still i think it's one of British Rails biggest mistakes, the line should of been mothballed, look at what a difference it would of made if still open and wired now.

Why? What difference would it have made? The pits are still shut, as are the steelworks and the traffic the Woodhead was built for has all gone.

The line has no purpose anymore, which is why it was closed. There's barely a handful of freights which cross the Pennines nowadays and they can all be taken care of by the routes that survive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Additionally the Hope Valley line could have been reduced to maybe one or two passing loops between Dore and Stockport/Hazel Grove, perhaps even with RETB.

Excuse me?

You're forgetting the fact that the Hope Valley is the only route across the Pennines that actually generates freight traffic. And as such, it's a vital artery.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Why? What difference would it have made? The pits are still shut, as are the steelworks and the traffic the Woodhead was built for has all gone.

The line has no purpose anymore, which is why it was closed. There's barely a handful of freights which cross the Pennines nowadays and they can all be taken care of by the routes that survive.

I agree, practically the same point I made. As nice as the thought of it never closing or re-opening is just pure nostalgia. It would not have re-gained its passenger service as the duplicate routes are much more useful in the modern age!

 

[alanf]

Could Trafford Park to Felixstowe not go this way and avoid London

 

[Bald Rick]

The story goes that the DC contact cable (it was much thicker than it's AC equivalent) made BR enough to cover the cost of re-electrifying the line in the first place.

It's not that much thicker! I should imagine the original DC contact wire is still there west of Hadfield, it certainly is on the GE main line.

 

[Nym]

Could Trafford Park to Felixstowe not go this way and avoid London

If the ECML was W10 cleared, yes.

And one beleives that in the next 20 years there will be call for Woodhead to re-open, perhaps as part of a link between the two arms of HS2, the line should be kept reserved for re-opening soon. As should the Matlock route from Chinley to Derby.

One would free up much space for freight and local journeys in the Hope Valley by sending express traffic via Woodhead, there is easy space for 2tph to go via the Woodhead route to Sheffeild Victoria and/or Leeds.

Even without re-opening the tunnel, looking at putting Sheffeild Victoria back into play, with having Nunnery Square as the main HS2 station, and a pair of platforms at the Sheffeild Victoria site for use by local services to Penistone, Woodhead and Leeds only. All services would terminate or call at Nunnery Square, to use the current Supertram network to link into Sheffeild Midland. Local journeys could also be routed into Nunnery Square and/or Sheffeild Victoria.

Nunnery Square would be the main through route and station for HS2, with a similar layout to Birmingham International, but with the fast through lines running outside the main station, and platforms also being provided for local services, segregated from the HS2 tracks. Links would be in place between the HS2 and Conventional platforms, so that Classic Compatible stock may leave the HS2 route here for Doncaster, Lincoln etc.

The line from Woodhead & Penistone would form a delta junction onto both HS2 and a conventional line shadowing this into Sheffield Victoria.

Faster services will be able to run to Penistone and Huddersfeild using the Woodhead Route to Penistone, and a shuttle running via Barnsley, etc.

Nunnery Square would terminate, on bay platforms or run through in loops services from or via:

Darnall, Worksop and Lincoln
Services via Rotherham
Penistone & Huddersfeild
Manchester via Woodhead
Liverpool - Norwich etc.

 

[TukayAway]

Through services to Manchester via Doncaster?

Why not? Most folk would still use Euston for a direct trip to Manchester. But Sheffield to London via the ECML would be as quick as the Midland Mainline with a reversal at Doncaster. And then you have the flexibility of routes from the East towards Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

To put things into context (rather than relying on Google Maps), this is the site by Nunnery Square - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/4548176376/

 

[Marton]

All of the gantries were massively over-engineered, as can be seen on other 1960's and pre 1960's electrification schemes.

Unlike the ECML

 

[Nym]

To put things into context (rather than relying on Google Maps), this is the site by Nunnery Square - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/4548176376/

Bags of space then

Maybe a bridge replacement and office demolition, but nothing ridiculous, it's mainly open space with lines to Midland and Victoria, and easy access for a route through to Leeds.

 

[Snapper]

Reopening Woodhead would be a massive waste of money that would be far better spent enhancing the existing lines to create more capacity. As for Hope Valley, the line is far from full. A third of the freight paths on the line are never actually used...

 

[Hydro]

A third of the freight paths on the line are never actually used...

I'm not sure it'd be too inaccurate to say that a third of freight paths are never used in general. /cynic

 

[Tracked]

A few months ago I got one of those booklets about rail upgrades in the North-west. Mainly about the Ordsall chord, but there was a bit about adding passing loops on the Hope Valley line to increase capacity, it might not be needed now but it looks like it will be in future

 

[Welshman]

What was the passenger frequency through Woodhead?

As I remember, it was basically 1 t.p.h. in each direction - x45 from Sheffield Victoria and x10 from Manchester.

 

[Nym]

But nowerdays there is call for 2tph through the core since thats the number of fast services that run across the Hope Valley only calling at stockport because it's there. So we could have the two services that run from Liverpool - Norwich and Airport - Cleethorpes run through that way, but then you hit the issues of the fact that it would be a pain to get them from the routes to Liverpool or Airport over to where they want to be, so if I had to take things out of the hope valley the first thing I'd be doing is sending the Liverpool - Norwich service via Matlock with a re-opening there and keeping that via stockport and then upping the stopper to sheffeild to hourly, and slotting in an additional semi fast service over the hope valley to Sheffield.

 

[Snapper]

Indeed Nym. If you were going to spend money reopenng a line then the old Midland route would make far more sense than Woodhead. For a start, it would take some existing freight flows in the direction they really want to go. By doing so, you free up paths on an existing Trans- Pennine route that actually serves an area where people live - unlike Woodhead, where the only passengers would be sheep.

 

[jopsuk]

The Woodhead, out of the various transpenine routes open or closed, only has this level of nostalgia surrounding it due to the electrification and the locos that went with it.

 

[tbtc]

Reopening Woodhead would be a massive waste of money that would be far better spent enhancing the existing lines to create more capacity. As for Hope Valley, the line is far from full. A third of the freight paths on the line are never actually used...

The Hope Valley paths could be better used than the current state, more loops would be a start.

However I would argue that, whilst there are more imediate things to spend money on than re-opening Woodhead (which would bring the complication of a second Sheffield station etc) I'd suggest it was much more of a priority than the Colne-Skipton plans that are often raised by some people on here.

As I remember, it was basically 1 t.p.h. in each direction - x45 from Sheffield Victoria and x10 from Manchester.

Thanks - I'd never seen this mentioned before

If you were going to spend money reopenng a line then the old Midland route would make far more sense than Woodhead. For a start, it would take some existing freight flows in the direction they really want to go. By doing so, you free up paths on an existing Trans- Pennine route that actually serves an area where people live - unlike Woodhead, where the only passengers would be sheep.

Every route over the Pennines/ Peaks will have a rural section (between stations), there isn't one continuous urban area however you do it, so whether it's "sheep" between Matlock and Buxton or "sheep" between Penistone and Hadfield, it's a lot of empty space either way.

Of course an extension of the old line beyond Matlock wouldn't serve Buxton properly, but I mention it as it's the next place in that general direction of any size.

 

[HSTEd]

At this point an attempt to restore electric south Transpennine operation would be best served by attempting to justify electrification between Hazel Grove or Stockport and Sheffield along the Hope Valley Line.

THis is unlikely to occur any time soon unfortunately, atleast until the MML is electrified (if it ever is).

 

[ole man]

There's nothing more i want than the Woodhead route to reopened,but as stated there are bigger projects that take priority.
Colne - Skipton is one off them.

If the MM does ever get wired then maybe the Woodhead route could be reopened, after all is was built to european gauge and that must be a advantage over the Hope Valley

 

[Bevan Price]

As I remember, it was basically 1 t.p.h. in each direction - x45 from Sheffield Victoria and x10 from Manchester.

Agreed - at closure. All trains were loco-hauled, mostly by Class 76, but the Harwich - Manchester service was diesel hauled, usually a Class 37. Class 306 emu's had no booked workings between Hadfield & Sheffield.

In earlier years, there were additional trains on Summer Saturdays (to Skegness, Yarmouth, Cleethorpes, etc.), and the Harwich train ran via Manchester Central (reverse) to Liverpool Central, with steam haulage west of Guide Bridge. Through trains to London Marylebone mostly ceased in about 1961 or 1962, apart from one overnight service. Class 77 were built for the heavier services, but became surplus once the GC rundown had started.

 

[A0]

Agreed - at closure. All trains were loco-hauled, mostly by Class 76, but the Harwich - Manchester service was diesel hauled, usually a Class 37. Class 306 emu's had no booked workings between Hadfield & Sheffield.

In earlier years, there were additional trains on Summer Saturdays (to Skegness, Yarmouth, Cleethorpes, etc.), and the Harwich train ran via Manchester Central (reverse) to Liverpool Central, with steam haulage west of Guide Bridge. Through trains to London Marylebone mostly ceased in about 1961 or 1962, apart from one overnight service. Class 77 were built for the heavier services, but became surplus once the GC rundown had started.

I think you mean Cl 506 EMUs - the 306s were the ones used on the GE - they were similar but I don't think identical.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think you mean Cl 506 EMUs - the 306s were the ones used on the GE - they were similar but I don't think identical.

Yes, I should have written Class 506 not 306.

 

[Snapper]

If the MM does ever get wired then maybe the Woodhead route could be reopened, after all is was built to european gauge and that must be a advantage over the Hope Valley

But was it, was it really?

What's the actual documentary evidence for this other than hearsay? It sounds like another of those great myths (that the GC London extension was built to Berne gauge when it wasn't as Berne gauge was only invented after the line was built).

Besides, what's 'European gauge' anyway? There were several in use, not just one.

Plus, how much of the line is meant to have been built like this? In reality it wouldn't be much use as lines at either end certainly weren't.

 

[jopsuk]

We need a QI-style klaxon whenever someone claims the GC or Woodhead to be "European" or "Berne" gauge.

 

[Nym]

Could be something to do with 'European Gauge' being UIC GC Gauge...

 

[tbtc]

We need a QI-style klaxon whenever someone claims the GC or Woodhead to be "European" or "Berne" gauge.

There were a few hundred comments on this thread - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40068 - maybe we need a new version of it?

(shame that "old" threads are automatically locked)

 

[Penmorfa]

I've not seen it mentioned, apologies if it has, but a new tunnel would be needed at Woodhead. The 'new' tunnel has been sold and is being converted to carry high voltage cables.

 

[HSTEd]

I've not seen it mentioned, apologies if it has, but a new tunnel would be needed at Woodhead. The 'new' tunnel has been sold and is being converted to carry high voltage cables.

Well any attempt to reopen Woodhead would be as a GC gauge line (as a connection between the two legs of HS2?) So would likely have required a new tunnel anyway.

 

[Welshman]

In earlier years, there were additional trains on Summer Saturdays (to Skegness, Yarmouth, Cleethorpes, etc.), and the Harwich train ran via Manchester Central (reverse) to Liverpool Central, with steam haulage west of Guide Bridge. Through trains to London Marylebone mostly ceased in about 1961 or 1962, apart from one overnight service. Class 77 were built for the heavier services, but became surplus once the GC rundown had started.

Going back to when Adam were nobbut a lad, there was also a named train to London Marylebone, which ran along part of the Woodhead route from Penistone to Sheffield Victoria.

It was the "South Yorkshireman" which left Bradford Exchange at 1000, Halifax 1016, Brighouse, Huddersfield, Shepley and Denby Dale [to pick-up only], Penistone, Sheffield and up the GC line to Marylebone, arriving AFAIR at about 1530.

It was only lightly-loaded from Bradford, being overtaken by the "Yorkshire Pullman" with through carriages from Bradford to London KX, leaving about 5 minutes later and arriving KX about 1 hour and 25 minutes earlier!

The return trip at 1650 from Marylebone was more useful, and it got back into Bradford Exchange about 2215.

It was steam-hauled throughout, as it was not worth changing to a 76 or 77 at Penistone for the 15 minute jouney to Sheffield Victoria[ and vv.]

 

[Bevan Price]

Woodhead line services from Manchester, for summer saturdays in the 1955 just show what a change there has been since then.

Manchester London Road (now Piccadilly):
01:25 to Cleethorpes via Barnsley & Doncaster.
01:50 to Cleethorpes via Sheffield Victoria & Retford.
These were mainly for Manchester newspaper traffic I think, but also conveyed passengers.
08:30 to London Marylebone.
09:10 to Skegness
09:30 to Cleethorpes
09:55 to Scarborough (via Barnsley & Bridlington)
10:05, 11:30 and 12:35 to Sheffield (V)
14:10, 16:00 to London Marylebone
17:00 to Cleethorpes
18:40, 20:30, 223:35 to Sheffield (V)

And also, from Manchester Central (via Guide Bridge):
08:20 to Skegness
08:40 to Sutton-on-sea & Mablethorpe
09:25 to Yarmouth Vauxhall
10:15 (09:20 Liverpool Cen. - Doncaster)**
10:25 (09:30 Liverpool Cen. - Hull via Doncaster)
13:25 to Bury St. Edmunds **
13:45 (12:50 Liverpool Central - Harwich Town)
14:15 (13:15 Liverpool Central - Sheffield Vic
15:15 to Sheffield Vic
17:25 (16:20 Liverpool Cen - Sheffield Vic.)**
17:40 (16:30 Liverpool Cen. - Hull)
19:50 to Sheffield Victoria
22:40 (21:30 Liverpool Cen. - London Marylebone)

** - these were effectively SO reliefs to the following services.