WMTrains livery and station branding

[Mollman]

I see a lot of passengers confused asking is this a LM service or LNW train. No stickers on trains. PIS is all wrong. Conductors even still saying welcome onboard this LM service. It’s all a mess

Seem to be following Northern where Arriva have not put any stickers on old-Northern liveried trains or the station signs.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I see a lot of passengers confused asking is this a LM service or LNW train. No stickers on trains. PIS is all wrong. Conductors even still saying welcome onboard this LM service. It’s all a mess

I've seen stickers gradually appearing on 323s and 170s. I don't think I've seen any on 350s yet. The PIS on (most/all of) the 350s has been changed to just say "this service to..." instead of "this London Midland service to..." and was doing so for a short time before the switchover. I heard a couple of conductors (and the announcer at Wolverhampton) saying LM or getting muddled last week, but I don't think I've heard it this week.

 

[E_Reeves]

I'm still yet to see the new 350 livery in the flesh. I'm surprised I didn't see it when I spent the entire day in Liverpool the other day and travelling up and down the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm still yet to see the new 350 livery in the flesh. I'm surprised I didn't see it when I spent the entire day in Liverpool the other day and travelling up and down the WCML.

I've seen it and it looks rubbish just like the rest of the operation.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I've also had a response back from my email:

------------------------- MY EMAIL ------------------------------

Hello,

I would like to express my disappointment regarding the way which your London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway brands have been introduced. My primary issue is the confusion which has arisen due to the way which you are splitting and operating the franchise. Let me explain what I mean.

Before the franchise change, If I have a ‘London Midland only’ ticket and I am waiting to board a Virgin Trains service, the announcements and notices would say ‘London Midland only tickets not valid’. I therefore know that my ticket is not valid on the Virgin service and that my ticket is only valid on trains branded and announced as a London Midland service.

After the franchise change, If I have a ‘Wmtrains only’ ticket and I am waiting to board a Virgin Trains service, the announcements will still say ‘wmtrains tickets not valid’ but now there are no services labelled as ‘wmtrains’ only as West Midlands Railway or London Northwestern. There is therefore confusion regarding what exactly what a ‘wmtrains’ train is. If I have a wmtrains only ticket, how do I know before I get on that the service I’m getting onto is a wmtrains service. The answer is that it’s pretty much luck and being in the know about the the way the franchise has been changed.

The announcements on board trains make it even more confusing because you can board a train with West Midlands Railway on the CIS display but the audio announcements inside the train say ‘welcome on board wmtrains’! Perhaps a better way to resolve this issue is to have the West Midlands Railway or London Northwestern Railway elements controlled via the train headcode?

The answer to this issue is simple, remove the “wmtrains” element from tickets and trains and market both parts of the franchise completely separately. Passengers simply do not need a third new company name to contend with. Simply state on trains as a reminder that the franchise is part of the wmtrains group.

My secondary issue is regarding the liveries of your franchise. Your new liveries are, in my opinion, simply horrible. The Northwestern livery is too similar to southern rails livery (creating yet more confusion at stations south of Milton Keynes).The orange, white and purple combine and clash very poorly and appear very ‘busy’ and complex.

The previous London Midland livery was very smart and looked very inviting with simple shapes, consistency and bright colours. I’m also disappointed that the new livery does not show the first class ‘yellow bar’ over the windows that many TOCs use. The lack of a full yellow front is also disappointing, I felt that the previous yellow sections on both liveries suited the trains better.

Thanks for reading my comments, I hope you take them into account. I fully appreciate that the franchise is very much a ‘work in progress’ as the teething period begins. I am confident that by correcting these issues and by respecting the strides the outgoing franchisee made, your franchise can become a success.

------------------------- WMTRAINS ------------------------------

Thank you for your email.

I do understand the confusion with the two brands falling under the operator West Midland Trains. The idea is that in the future they will be separate - Birmingham, Coventry, Wolverhampton services and stations will be run by an authority/authorities within the West Midlands. Between and until then, we are sure it will catch on.

Your comments about the livery is noted. It's too late to change the branding now, but it may be reviewed in the future.

At the moment it is all new and as you said we are at the teething stage. With feedback from passengers such as yourself, the train crew, and station staff we will hopefully be able to offer a smooth and less confusing service.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Kind regards
WMTrains

 

[sufian123]

I've also had a response back from my email:

------------------------- MY EMAIL ------------------------------

Hello,

I would like to express my disappointment regarding the way which your London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway brands have been introduced. My primary issue is the confusion which has arisen due to the way which you are splitting and operating the franchise. Let me explain what I mean.

Before the franchise change, If I have a ‘London Midland only’ ticket and I am waiting to board a Virgin Trains service, the announcements and notices would say ‘London Midland only tickets not valid’. I therefore know that my ticket is not valid on the Virgin service and that my ticket is only valid on trains branded and announced as a London Midland service.

After the franchise change, If I have a ‘Wmtrains only’ ticket and I am waiting to board a Virgin Trains service, the announcements will still say ‘wmtrains tickets not valid’ but now there are no services labelled as ‘wmtrains’ only as West Midlands Railway or London Northwestern. There is therefore confusion regarding what exactly what a ‘wmtrains’ train is. If I have a wmtrains only ticket, how do I know before I get on that the service I’m getting onto is a wmtrains service. The answer is that it’s pretty much luck and being in the know about the the way the franchise has been changed.

The announcements on board trains make it even more confusing because you can board a train with West Midlands Railway on the CIS display but the audio announcements inside the train say ‘welcome on board wmtrains’! Perhaps a better way to resolve this issue is to have the West Midlands Railway or London Northwestern Railway elements controlled via the train headcode?

The answer to this issue is simple, remove the “wmtrains” element from tickets and trains and market both parts of the franchise completely separately. Passengers simply do not need a third new company name to contend with. Simply state on trains as a reminder that the franchise is part of the wmtrains group.

My secondary issue is regarding the liveries of your franchise. Your new liveries are, in my opinion, simply horrible. The Northwestern livery is too similar to southern rails livery (creating yet more confusion at stations south of Milton Keynes).The orange, white and purple combine and clash very poorly and appear very ‘busy’ and complex.

The previous London Midland livery was very smart and looked very inviting with simple shapes, consistency and bright colours. I’m also disappointed that the new livery does not show the first class ‘yellow bar’ over the windows that many TOCs use. The lack of a full yellow front is also disappointing, I felt that the previous yellow sections on both liveries suited the trains better.

Thanks for reading my comments, I hope you take them into account. I fully appreciate that the franchise is very much a ‘work in progress’ as the teething period begins. I am confident that by correcting these issues and by respecting the strides the outgoing franchisee made, your franchise can become a success.

------------------------- WMTRAINS ------------------------------

Thank you for your email.

I do understand the confusion with the two brands falling under the operator West Midland Trains. The idea is that in the future they will be separate - Birmingham, Coventry, Wolverhampton services and stations will be run by an authority/authorities within the West Midlands. Between and until then, we are sure it will catch on.

Your comments about the livery is noted. It's too late to change the branding now, but it may be reviewed in the future.

At the moment it is all new and as you said we are at the teething stage. With feedback from passengers such as yourself, the train crew, and station staff we will hopefully be able to offer a smooth and less confusing service.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Kind regards
WMTrains

Its like they won't do anything really? Wouldn't it be sensible to say London Northwestern Railway or LNR tickets are not valid on this train.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Saw 350373 at Wolverhampton this morning in its new livery. It'll take some getting used to, that's for sure. I don't think it's awful... It's just very different.

What I hadn't realised is that the thick bands of colour form the letters W and M On the side of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit like the new First livery in that regard, which hides the (f) in non-obvious colour panels on the bodyside.

 

[DavidGrain]

So far I have seen two versions of the West Midlands Trains network map. Neither of them show trains running from Birmingham to London. The West Midlands Railway runs to Northampton and no further. Correction, I have just come across a 'Birmingham West Midlands' map which shows all operators in the Birmingham area and London NorthWestern is shown running through Birmingham,Last Thursday (11th January) I was travelling from Sandwell and Dudley to Euston but as the Virgin timing from SAD was not convenient I planned to take a local train to New Street to join a Virgin train there. When I got to SAD I saw that the next train was a late running train for Euston so I expected it to be a Virgin train running earlier than the one that I had an advance ticket for. I was surprised when I saw a former London Midland come in although I was aware that sone Crewe London trains did run via Birmingham. There was no indication that it was a london NorthWestern train on the onboard announcements, just 'Welcome to this service to London Euston'.

At Milton Keynes Central I saw a train presumably going to Birmingham in what appeared to be West Midlands Railways livery. Seen between the building on the platform, I just saw the overlaid letters WM which I assume would not be carried on the London NorthWestern livery.

When we arried in Euston I saw a train against the buffers in Platform 15 still in full LM livery a full month after the last LM train ran. This even included the Peppa Pig decals in the window.


#

 

[Bletchleyite]

The LNR logo has a big W as well, it was probably that one. There is only one WMR liveried unit (a 172) and it would not be at MKC.

 

[DavidGrain]

The LNR logo has a big W as well, it was probably that one. There is only one WMR liveried unit (a 172) and it would not be at MKC.

Thanks I was puzzled.

 

[atsf_fT]

Thanks to a tip off from brother i managed to see 350373 on the Wolverhampton - Walsall turn today .

I like the new signals on the stour Valley and Walsall line , very smart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Every time I see it, it looks more rubbish, made worse by the scruffy fly-covered and paint-flaked gangway. At least it's not white based I suppose.

 

[DavidGrain]

That is surely London NorthWestern livery on a train on a West Midlands Railway service. So much for splitting the brand. Incidentally Wolverhampton to Walsall is a V shaped service going via Birmingham New Street. No one in their right minds would get a train from Wolverhampton to Walsall unless they got the ghost train early in the morning. The direct service stopped when the Government, who micro manage the railways more than they ever did in BR days, took the unit away and put it on a service somewhere in the south.

Oh by the way that is not the livery I saw at MKC last week so it must have been a West Midlands Railways train that I saw. In which case it must have been a DMU so could it have been on the Bedford line?

 

[sprinterguy]

Oh by the way that is not the livery I saw at MKC last week so it must have been a West Midlands Railways train that I saw. In which case it must have been a DMU so could it have been on the Bedford line?

Given that there is only one unit in the West Midlands Railway livery, which is a 3-car unit (much longer than the platforms of the Bedford - Bletchley branch) essentially dedicated to the West Midlands Snow Hill lines and of a class not passed for use on the Bedford - Bletchley line, then I find it extremely unlikely that that is what you will have seen at Milton Keynes. Never say never I suppose, but it would be distinctly off piste for a class 172 unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bedford-Bletchley DMUs don't go to MKC. And they're all in LM livery.

Is it a Southern Electrostar you saw, then? :

Thinking about it there's one third outlying possibility - the GWR Electrostars (as with other Electrostars) have done some testing on the WCML and may still be doing - was it one of those? They definitely have branding that forms the shape of a W on the side:

 

[DavidGrain]

As I said I saw it between the buildings looking from a Virgin train on the up fast platform and it definitely had the superimposed letters WM as in the West Midlands livery. As the WM logo was the only thing I saw, I am sure that it could not have been any other TOC

 

[class387]

As I said I saw it between the buildings looking from a Virgin train on the up fast platform and it definitely had the superimposed letters WM as in the West Midlands livery. As the WM logo was the only thing I saw, I am sure that it could not have been any other TOC

Could it just be an old livery 350 with the new logo?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it just be an old livery 350 with the new logo?

I don't believe any have received the new branding over LM livery yet.

 

[pt_mad]

Could it just be an old livery 350 with the new logo?

I think it could have been a class 153. As at least two have West Midlands Railway black and orange decal logos on now. Along the sides.

 

[pt_mad]

Thanks to a tip off from brother i managed to see 350373 on the Wolverhampton - Walsall turn today .

I like the new signals on the stour Valley and Walsall line , very smart.

Superb photos, thank you.

Am I the only one to think these images look superb? I like the metallic style of the green. And the green on the front makes it look more square than with yellow. Like it.

Perhaps would look slightly better with full green on the front if head lamps ever get upgraded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it could have been a class 153. As at least two have West Midlands Railway black and orange decal logos on now. Along the sides.

What day was it? You'd only see one of those at MKC on a Sunday, which is the day they get swapped (unless it had to go back for a failure). Though it'd be unlikely to stop there and would be coupled to the 150 and any spare unit going back to Tyseley to swap them for a new pair for the next week.

 

[DavidGrain]

I have looked on Realtime Trains and the only train it could have been was 2K21 on 11th Jan EUS to MKC arriving 7 minutes late just as my Virgin train was about to pull out. However that is scheduled as a 350. So the mystery deepens.

 

[pt_mad]

I have looked on Realtime Trains and the only train it could have been was 2K21 on 11th Jan EUS to MKC arriving 7 minutes late just as my Virgin train was about to pull out. However that is scheduled as a 350. So the mystery deepens.

So could it not just have been 350373 pictured above? Pictures in post #252. The London Northwestern logo is like a segmented W, and it may have 'operated by Wmtrains' on the side as well which would explain it.

The London Northwestern logo is also pictured above.

 

[pt_mad]

Looking at recent photos of 350373, and photos which come up with an internet search for images for 350373, it looks like the headlights are now a sort of cool LED white colour. Rather than the old sort of warm white car headlamp colour. Could it be that the lamps have been upgraded?

If so could it be a possibility that the re-liveried fleet could run with no yellow at all on the front?

 

[Domh245]

Looking at recent photos of 350373, and photos which come up with an internet search for images for 350373, it looks like the headlights are now a sort of cool LED white colour. Rather than the old sort of warm white car headlamp colour. Could it be that the lamps have been upgraded?

If so could it be a possibility that the re-liveried fleet could run with no yellow at all on the front?

I don't think they have. Compare this before and this after shot, and you can see that the headlamps are still the same warm colour they've always been. But even then, the ability to run without a yellow panel is more a function of the way in which the headlamps operate (notably the ability to illuminate both headlamps at a dimmed setting for night-time operation) rather than the warmth of the bulbs (although both brightness and warmth are controlled by relevant standards)

That doesn't preclude the necessary modifications being made to the fleet and the necessary paperwork being (re)done at some point in the near future to enable them to run without a yellow panel though.

 

[pt_mad]

I don't think they have. Compare this before and this after shot, and you can see that the headlamps are still the same warm colour they've always been. But even then, the ability to run without a yellow panel is more a function of the way in which the headlamps operate (notably the ability to illuminate both headlamps at a dimmed setting for night-time operation) rather than the warmth of the bulbs (although both brightness and warmth are controlled by relevant standards)

That doesn't preclude the necessary modifications being made to the fleet and the necessary paperwork being (re)done at some point in the near future to enable them to run without a yellow panel though.

Interesting.

Compare those photos to this photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/juniper007/27216327029

Definitely looks more of a cooler LED white now, definitely on the side lights. Not sure about the main head lamp that is lit. Suggests some changes could have been made.

 

[Domh245]

Interesting.

Compare those photos to this photo https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=3...2#imgdii=4dc9ueitfTBI8M:&imgrc=jpvXDLLhheFvlM:

Definitely looks more of a cooker LED white now, definitely on the side lights. Not sure about the main head lamp that is lit.

In that photo, only the tail lamps are lit, all you're seeing is the background of the LED marker ("side") lights. Although I think there is also some photo-trickery going on in that photo as well, it is very bright, and there does seem to be a bit of a reflection, or possibly even trapped moisture, in that left hand marker light (as you look at it)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the mod to light both high intensity beams at all times?

 

[Domh245]

Isn't the mod to light both high intensity beams at all times?

Doesn't have to be, although for new units, the trend seems to be to have both headlights on. The exact wording of the relevant part of GM/RT2131 is:

"Controls shall be provided that enable the switching of the lamps on and off, and between modes, as shown below, from the normal driving position. The modes are:
a) Marker lamps only (white marker lamps at the front of the train and red tail lamps at the rear of the train).
b) Day time running (1 or 2 ‘Full beam*’ head lamps, with a total of 3 white front end lights in a triangle arrangement as defined in the OPE TSI, the remainder being marker lamps).
c) Night time running (2 ‘Dimmed*’ head lamps and one top marker lamp).
d) Tail lamps only."

So it is only that night time running mode that is preventing them from being compliant as it stands.

*For completeness sake, these are defined in BS EN 15153-1. Full Beam is 40000 - 70000 cd along the optical axis of the lamp, whilst Dimmed is 12000 - 16000 cd. Also defined are the chromacity (approximately between 2500K and 7000K), the dimensions of the lit area ( minimum 17650mm^2 and 110mm, maximum 33400mm^2), and positioning on the front of the vehicle. It also defines similar parameters for marker and tail lights