WMTrains livery and station branding

[sprinterguy]

That is surely London NorthWestern livery on a train on a West Midlands Railway service. So much for splitting the brand.

I suspect we'll only see that level of granularity in external branding when the new fleets arrive, assuming that the 36 x 3-car EMUs will be sufficient to cover the Bromsgrove and Chase line electrification schemes as well as the existing requirement for electric units in the West Midlands.

It's one of the minor pitfalls that BR (and for some time, their successors) encountered with PTE liveries on otherwise common fleets.

 

[pt_mad]

Off topic for a second, but is it ok as things are at the moment if a trains runs at night with only one headlamp lit? (I.e. continue if one headlamp is defective).

 

[XCTurbostar]

So long as it has a yellow front, I don't think it matters.

Off topic for a second, but is ok as things are at the moment if a trains runs at night with only one headlamp lit? (I.e. continue if one headlamp is defective).

 

[pt_mad]

So long as it has a yellow front, I don't think it matters.

So would the regulations say just one headlamp must be lit?

 

[Domh245]

Off topic for a second, but is ok as things are at the moment if a trains runs at night with only one headlamp lit? (I.e. continue if one headlamp is defective).

Yes, at the moment it is entirely fine for trains to run with a singular headlamp at night, provided they have got a yellow panel. And of course, if one of them fails, they can change over to the other headlamp, even if the other headlamp isn't optimally aligned for night time driving. If a non-yellow fronted vehicle were to loose a headlamp during the night, it'd have to proceed at a slower speed until it can be taken out of service (20mph rings a bell)

So would the regulations say just one headlamp must be lit?

The old standard (GM/RT2483) which is the one applicable to all stock that entered service before Dec 2015 states that

"The forward facing front-end of the leading vehicle of a train shall be fitted with no fewer than two fixed head-lamps. At least one head-lamp shall be suited for day-time operation and at least one other for night-time operation. Only one fixed head-lamp is required to be lit at any time but additional lamps of both types are permissible on either side of the vehicle front.

In normal operation during daylight the day-time head-lamp shall be lit, and during the hours of darkness the night-time head-lamp shall be lit."

 

[XCTurbostar]

Yes, at the moment it is entirely fine for trains to run with a singular headlamp at night, provided they have got a yellow panel. And of course, if one of them fails, they can change over to the other headlamp, even if the other headlamp isn't optimally aligned for night time driving.

Domh245, is correct.

A train shall be designed for three front lamps to be lit when it is in service. However, in the event of failure of a lamp it is permissible, pending replacement of the lamps, to continue operation in accordance with the requirements set out in GE/RT8000

 

[XCTurbostar]

The way I see yellow ends is that surely its worth it to keep both the bright lights and the yellow end just for the one case when 'the triangle' of lights cannot be achieved? At least the train can continue to run in service as normal for the rest of the day.

 

[K.o.R]

If a non-yellow fronted vehicle were to loose a headlamp during the night

This applies only to the "main" lamps and not the "marker" lamps? Though some vehicles, e.g. the 68, have LED marker-style but main-brightness lamps.

Also I have seen on some of the 313s a "warm" main headlamp and others a "cool" main headlamp; both appear to be normal filament/halogen bulbs however.

 

[sd0733]

350373 is on 12:36/16:36/20:36 Birmingham to Liverpool, 14:34/18:34/22:34 ex Liverpool if anyone wants a pic. Not seen it up that way since it' new colours.
I Notice there are now no carriage numbers and no 1st class markings or window stickers at all externally.

 

[Domh245]

This applies only to the "main" lamps and not the "marker" lamps? Though some vehicles, e.g. the 68, have LED marker-style but main-brightness lamps.

Also I have seen on some of the 313s a "warm" main headlamp and others a "cool" main headlamp; both appear to be normal filament/halogen bulbs however.

Yes, as per my earlier post quoting the latest standard, at night there must be two headlamps illuminated. The way that I read it is that if the train was built to the latest standard, and doesn't have a yellow front, you cannot have a headlamp and a marker lamp illuminated and be able to run during the night. It seems odd given that was the normal mode of operation previously, but that is the way I read it. I can't say for certain with the 68s, but they appear to have a single lamp in each 'cluster' that fulfils all three roles - headlight, tail light and marker (I would guess the "angel eye" mode) - FWIW, it seems that the 7171, and all of the Aventras in the pipeline (720, 701, WMTrains) are also single lamps at the front compared to the two lamps used on the 345s and 710s.

As for the brightness of the 313's, It seems to be the case that Southern have fitted HID lamps, whilst the GN units have got more conventional lamps fitted. The slightly triangular appearing thing in the lamp is a giveaway to the HID bulbs.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I Notice there are now no carriage numbers and no 1st class markings or window stickers at all externally.

Carriage Numbers are on the right hand side under the final window in black on each side. First Class is an issue, there is no indication at all.

 

[mushroomchow]

I got a glimpse of the new "Green" 350s while on my way to the tube at Stonebridge Park on Saturday. Hideous - I think it was Meatloaf that quipped "if it 'aint broke, break it". Given there are still plenty of LM liveried units around, the comparison is stark. I'd actually thought that on first glance the LNWR livery wasn't going to be too bad, but I take that back. It's Trainz Paintshed standard.


Mercifully haven't seen a "jaundiced tellytubby" yet, but I stand by that whichever fool designed either of these two liveries should be kept a bargepole's length from any future rail livery design process.

 

[sd0733]

Carriage Numbers are on the right hand side under the final window in black on each side. First Class is an issue, there is no indication at all.

Sorry I meant letters not numbers!

 

[K.o.R]

The way that I read it is that if the train was built to the latest standard, and doesn't have a yellow front, you cannot have a headlamp and a marker lamp illuminated and be able to run during the night.

Seems odd to introduce a single point of failure like that. The price of fashion, perhaps.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the "angel eye" for? Is it the equivalent of showing both red and white as sometimes used for shunting?

 

[K.o.R]

I don't know about red and white, but it's probably just to show that the vehicle is liable to move, without the blinding headlight.

 

[Domh245]

What's the "angel eye" for? Is it the equivalent of showing both red and white as sometimes used for shunting?

My suspicion is that it is the marker light setting for the 68s, but it could equally just be a fluke of the camera timing.

 

[K.o.R]

Yes, those LEDs are so bright that one or other colour would be drowned out. On that subject, does that mean that only the Desiros can display red and white markers simultaneously (as they are separate clusters)?

 

[jhy44]

Superb photos, thank you.

Am I the only one to think these images look superb? I like the metallic style of the green. And the green on the front makes it look more square than with yellow. Like it.

Perhaps would look slightly better with full green on the front if head lamps ever get upgraded.

I also really like the LNW livery, the colours complement one another very well, it's smart, looks tidy, sharp, exactly what a livery should be.

The WMR livery however is the complete opposite, Purple & Orange are opposing colours that should never go together, and just painted on as thick horizontal stripes? The worst livery this country has ever seen in my opinion.

It does seem quite farcical to have an LNW liveried train running a WMR service, but then this whole 'semi-split semi-together' fiasco has been farcical from the beginning; the two should have been tendered as complete separate franchises.

 

[superalbs]

On the 172, it's not purple and orange, it's purple and gold, which happen to go very well together imo.

 

[Class172]

On the 172, it's not purple and orange, it's purple and gold, which happen to go very well together imo.

I would definitely be inclined to say that it was orange, almost a 'hi-vis jacket' shade of orange. I agree a gold colour would work much better in contrasting with the purple, and make it look less similar to London Overground - I'd be leaning towards a shade more similar to this.

 

[superalbs]

I would definitely be inclined to say that it was orange, almost a 'hi-vis jacket' shade of orange. I agree a gold colour would work much better in contrasting with the purple, and make it look less similar to London Overground - I'd be leaning towards a shade more similar to this.

Seems gold to me. (An orangey gold, I won't deny, but it's not as strong of an orange as the first renders made it out to be).

 

[samuelmorris]

One vote for orange

 

[Class172]

Seems gold to me. (An orangey gold, I won't deny, but it's not as strong of an orange as the first renders made it out to be).

I would say the lighting conditions in that picture are pretty poor when it comes to displaying a true representation of the colours. The images in this post a few pages back are a bit better. I do agree that they is it's not as lurid as the original render.

 

[capital12]

I still don’t like either of them really - far too fussy and suffering from the First problem of sticking too many logos and bits all over the place! Would probably be okay if they removed all the unnecessary bits that over complicate it.

With regard to WM Trains response earlier in thread - that’s just bollocks! Basically saying the design is done and it can’t be changed - with regard the yellow ends you could just leave a bit of vinyl off and not cover the yellow up!

 

[atsf_fT]

Another poor day , taken on 12-01-18 at Whitlocks End .
Photos taken on my not so good Mobile phone , one of the few days i didn't have my SLR with me !

Detail of 172 339

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really do like that, unlike the LNR one which is drab beyond belief. Though I prefer it either with a full yellow end or no yellow end.

 

[superalbs]

I really do like that, unlike the LNR one which is drab beyond belief. Though I prefer it either with a full yellow end or no yellow end.

I do wish they'd just ditch the yellow end, looks very silly with an odd slither.

Hope those rumours a few pages back about the rest of them being done without it were correct.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I do wish they'd just ditch the yellow end, looks very silly with an odd slither.

Hope those rumours a few pages back about the rest of them being done without it were correct.

I agree... They are outdated, I mean, steam trains managed fine Seriously, they are so outdated now.

And its orange, not gold

 

[pt_mad]

With regard to WM Trains response earlier in thread - that’s just bollocks! Basically saying the design is done and it can’t be changed - with regard the yellow ends you could just leave a bit of vinyl off and not cover the yellow up!

But bear in mind that the Desiros are maintained by Siemens and not LNW themselves as far as I know. So if the rollout of the design has been fully agreed with Siemens for x units, perhaps it could be difficult at this stage to make changes if the costs have been agreed.


Can only assume the outsourcing of the maintenance on the 350s is the reason that a lot of the WMR stock is now displaying WMR decals, but the 350s as yet are not.


Come to mention it, are 323s with WMR decals on the sides counted as having been re-liveried for the purpose of this thread? Were the ex-East Coast units counted as re-liveried when they received the big red Virgin stripe on the front and rear power car?
As the thread doesnt seem to indicate which units have been re-liveried with the new decals.