Will the Class 172 be the last DMU for a while?

[387star]

Yes isn't it another non-electrified Island?

 

[tbtc]

Various lines in central Scotland are to be electrified:

The Edinburgh Waverley/Glasgow Queen Street/ Dunblane "triangle"
The Cumbernauld line
Whifflet
(etc)

By my reckoning this would free up about fifty Scotrail DMUs. Since 156s are needed to do "south western" routes and 170s being "modern" I assumed that this would be the end of the 158s north of the border (possibly with Northern/EMT sending a handful of 156s north in return for a load of 158s).

However, this thread has suggested the 185s doing north instead. Hmmn. Okay, lets say the MML gets wired up. That releases 27x 222s which would go to TPE North providing a 5/6 coach train. Assuming TPE South moves to EMT (with 158s ex FSR) and TPE "North West" moves to DMU (when the lines are wired), this frees up 51 x 185s. Giving FSR all the 185s would allow them to run just two DMU classes (156 on the rural routes like West Highland, Far North, Stranraer etc, 185s on routes like Aberdeen/Inverness - Central Belt). So, all 185s are with one operator (efficiencies etc), and this leaves almost 100 158/170s to be divvied up amongst the usual suspects...

Anyone still with me?
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ETA: How many miles of Third Rail would it take to electrify Oxted and Marshlink lines? 44 coaches of DMU could be freed up... is there any reasons these two haven't been electrified already?

 

[cslusarc]

ETA: How many miles of Third Rail would it take to electrify Oxted and Marshlink lines? 44 coaches of DMU could be freed up... is there any reasons these two haven't been electrified already?

There are about 25 miles between Hurst Green and Uckfield each way for a total of about 50 track miles if fully double tracked. There are 24tpd each weekday from either London Bridge and East Croydon to Uckfield.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I see a few people mentioning 172's to replace 14x, I take it these are geared for quick acceleration over top speed?
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I think we may have some class 165/166's displaced after the crossrail project so providing they can be cleared could some be sent to work local services around cornwall/devon?

Don't see why not, however there may be gauge issues? I know for a fact they would not be able to operate through the severn tunnel.

 

[tbtc]

There are about 25 miles between Hurst Green and Uckfield each way for a total of about 50 track miles if fully double tracked. There are 24tpd each weekday from either London Bridge and East Croydon to Uckfield.

Cheers, seems strange that they never electrified it
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I see a few people mentioning 172's to replace 14x, I take it these are geared for quick acceleration over top speed?
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The Chiltern ones are well geared to give 75mph top speed and a good acceleration - exactly what you need on Northern routes when trying to get out of the way of a "fast" service, and also handy when you are stopping every five minutes

 

[Blindtraveler]

with you mate and it makes sense. Maintaining the 185s wouldnt be too bad as we have, as if we need reminding 380s now and as the diesal variant facilities could be expanded in Glasgow and haymarket converted. The problem is the 156's. They will need replacing sometime, presumably with a new design? Thoughts people? Slightly off topic but what do we think EMU wise we'll get for Scottish central belt electrification? My guess is transport scotland ordered the 380s partly as a test to see if this design could be more widely used and although its early days, they aint exactly been the hoped for success! An electro star variant sounds good to me but one point, we wil stil need enough deesal units for both express work and runs like Fife Circle so some turbos would need to stay or new stock built. Maybe the 156 replacement could have 2 subclasses, 1 for long distance e.g far north, west highland and south west and a commuter version for fife/shots line/whatever else round glasgow has not yet been wired.

Various lines in central Scotland are to be electrified:

The Edinburgh Waverley/Glasgow Queen Street/ Dunblane "triangle"
The Cumbernauld line
Whifflet
(etc)

By my reckoning this would free up about fifty Scotrail DMUs. Since 156s are needed to do "south western" routes and 170s being "modern" I assumed that this would be the end of the 158s north of the border (possibly with Northern/EMT sending a handful of 156s north in return for a load of 158s).

However, this thread has suggested the 185s doing north instead. Hmmn. Okay, lets say the MML gets wired up. That releases 27x 222s which would go to TPE North providing a 5/6 coach train. Assuming TPE South moves to EMT (with 158s ex FSR) and TPE "North West" moves to DMU (when the lines are wired), this frees up 51 x 185s. Giving FSR all the 185s would allow them to run just two DMU classes (156 on the rural routes like West Highland, Far North, Stranraer etc, 185s on routes like Aberdeen/Inverness - Central Belt). So, all 185s are with one operator (efficiencies etc), and this leaves almost 100 158/170s to be divvied up amongst the usual suspects...

Anyone still with me?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ETA: How many miles of Third Rail would it take to electrify Oxted and Marshlink lines? 44 coaches of DMU could be freed up... is there any reasons these two haven't been electrified already?

 

[LE Greys]

Gatwick Airport-Reading could be handed over to South West Trains

I'd actually hand it over to Southern on the condition that they electrify it when (if) they do Oxted-Uckfield and Marshlink. This would give Southern access to the Western market and an "intruder" line right accross South Western territory. I believe that the line was built by the L.B.&S.C.R., so I suppose it would be a return to a traditional structure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

with you mate and it makes sense. Maintaining the 185s wouldnt be too bad as we have, as if we need reminding 380s now and as the diesal variant facilities could be expanded in Glasgow and haymarket converted. The problem is the 156's. They will need replacing sometime, presumably with a new design? Thoughts people? Slightly off topic but what do we think EMU wise we'll get for Scottish central belt electrification? My guess is transport scotland ordered the 380s partly as a test to see if this design could be more widely used and although its early days, they aint exactly been the hoped for success! An electro star variant sounds good to me but one point, we wil stil need enough deesal units for both express work and runs like Fife Circle so some turbos would need to stay or new stock built. Maybe the 156 replacement could have 2 subclasses, 1 for long distance e.g far north, west highland and south west and a commuter version for fife/shots line/whatever else round glasgow has not yet been wired.

Interesting idea. Take this Class 160 (or whatever) and assume the same basic bodyshell, one version could have low-density seating, big luggage racks, bike spaces (or ideally a guard's compartment) and doors at the end of the vehicle. The other one might still use the same bodyshell, or it might have doors at ¼ and ¾ positions. Either way, assume 3-car with high-density seating, smaller luggage racks and more space for standing. Basically, just like the 150 and 156.

 

[WillPS]

I assume he's thinking of when that route is fully electrified. Now the electrification strategy already states that if competed it would be done with third rail.

Economies of scale suggest it would sit better with SWT (or even SN) - but only if a third rail EMU was planned to be used - but it wouldn't be impossible for FGW to keep on running it - perhaps using 319s from their overall fleet, if they have enough.

Economies of scale? Doesn't seem to be on the DfT's agenda, given that:
- Hourly Nottingham - Leeds was awarded to Northern, rather than EMT, even though EMT already ran a similar route several times a day (from London).
- Sheffield - Lincoln is run by Northern, despite EMT being the principal operator of both Sheffield and Lincoln, and also connecting with the service in Worksop for the Robin Hood Line

I'm sure there are other, non-East Midlands examples too!!

 

[cslusarc]

Maintaining the 185s wouldnt be too bad as we have, as if we need reminding 380s now and as the diesal variant facilities could be expanded in Glasgow and haymarket converted. The problem is the 156's. They will need replacing sometime, presumably with a new design? Thoughts people? Slightly off topic but what do we think EMU wise we'll get for Scottish central belt electrification? My guess is transport scotland ordered the 380s partly as a test to see if this design could be more widely used and although its early days, they aint exactly been the hoped for success! An electro star variant sounds good to me but one point, we wil stil need enough deesal units for both express work and runs like Fife Circle so some turbos would need to stay or new stock built. Maybe the 156 replacement could have 2 subclasses, 1 for long distance e.g far north, west highland and south west and a commuter version for fife/shots line/whatever else round glasgow has not yet been wired.

Under my guestimation, the Class 156s could last to 2022 if they last to age 35.

Regardings EMUs in Scotland: The delivery of 130 Class 380 carriages is likely to be extended into 2012. Sometime this year 20 Class 322 carriages will be returned to the lessor. As the Edinburgh to Glasgow Improvement Programme continues ScotRail will need more electric trains. I'd like to see a top up order of 6-car Class 380s. As further electrification in the SPT travel area happens a new 75 mph Suburban Commuter trains will be needed. I'd like to see them also be 6-car too. By 2015 the Class 314s that do the Cathcart Circle Lines will need replacement too. In the Network Rail RUS for Scotland there was talk of converting the Cathcart Circle Lines to trams or tram-trains. This line has linespeed restrictions of up to 50 mph so it and the Paisley Canal line seem to be good canditates for conversion to light rail.

 

[MacCookie]

Regardings EMUs in Scotland: The delivery of 130 Class 380 carriages is likely to be extended into 2012.

I don't remember reading anything about an option to extend the 380 order in the original contract.

Sometime this year 20 Class 322 carriages will be returned to the lessor.

It was meant to be March, but will now be May - the 322s are being replaced by 380s. The routes have formally been cleared for 380s (Edinburgh - Drem - North Berwick / Dunbar) and ASDO/PIS testing starts this week. Not sure when driver training begins.

Ewan
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Am I right in thinking runs like the west highland, carlisle/dumfries/stranrar arn't cleared for other D M U stock, eg 158s?

Not yet.

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+158+Route+Clearance
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+170+Route+Clearance

Ewan

 

[ChrisCooper]

The big problem with using 22Xs or 185s to replace Sprinters is the weight. SP (Sprinter) differential speeds are based mainly around lower weight, so only applied to 14X, 15X, 16X and 17X. 18X and 22X types are too heavy and would be restricted to slower speeds. That's why TPX have the 170s, since even with their very sluggish in comparison acceleration, they can still keep time better than 185s on the Manchester-Hull route. 22Xs will be even worse as they not only suffer the same weight penalties, but their 125mph design means they have a lot of wasted space, a 4 car Voyager has less seats than a 3 car Turbostar. Very inefficient on routes where they would have little or no chance to strech their legs.

Given a mass electrification, the 185s would IMHO stay roughly where they are until replaced by EMUs and then scrapped. 22Xs will either have pantograph coaches fitted and become hybrids or even EMUs (removing engines too) or scrapped. Remember that by the time any large scale electrification allowing major replacement of the front line DMUs takes place, even the newest will be getting on in years, and knowing how rattly, claggy and rough sounding modern DMUs get very quickly I can't seem them having great life spans, and DMUs have never had as long lifespans as EMUs or locos. The only thing I can see saving the 185s in future is going on a serious weight loss program, starting with a re-engine.

 

[Blindtraveler]

LE Greys you have my way of thinking exactly.

More I think about it, it would be an idea to build your proposed new 156 replacement sooner than laterwith the described variants yes, 156s do have life left in them but maybe the building of a new class would allow the existing units to be internally gutted to provide a more commuter friendly layout and used to start replacing pasers? Ok, it wouldnt be longterm but it would avoid a cheep rushed solution to there replacement which might be a disaster all over again and good as 156s are, runs like west highland in particular need someething better for the tourists and there clutter! QUOTE=LE Greys;604484]I'd actually hand it over to Southern on the condition that they electrify it when (if) they do Oxted-Uckfield and Marshlink. This would give Southern access to the Western market and an "intruder" line right accross South Western territory. I believe that the line was built by the L.B.&S.C.R., so I suppose it would be a return to a traditional structure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Interesting idea. Take this Class 160 (or whatever) and assume the same basic bodyshell, one version could have low-density seating, big luggage racks, bike spaces (or ideally a guard's compartment) and doors at the end of the vehicle. The other one might still use the same bodyshell, or it might have doors at ¼ and ¾ positions. Either way, assume 3-car with high-density seating, smaller luggage racks and more space for standing. Basically, just like the 150 and 156.[/QUOTE]

 

[Minstral25]

South East area, get all gaps removed such as reading - basingstoke and various on the Redhill - Gatwick area.

By Redhill - Gatwick which is electrified I assume you mean Reigate to Wokingham on the Gatwick - Reading services. This whilst looking good to fill a gap is not cash efficient - the patronage of services rarely fills a 3 car DMU hourly.

If you mean Hurst Green to Uckfield this service too is not really viable but the new class 171 service is increasing patronage and could become viable, especially as the trains continue to London Bridge.

Maybe this is a Bi-mode opportunity - using 172's with corridor connections attaching to 377's at Oxted so that electric power could be used from Hurst Green to London Bridge?? Probably technically impossible and would need extra sidings but would be greener (TIC)

 

[LE Greys]

By Redhill - Gatwick which is electrified I assume you mean Reigate to Wokingham on the Gatwick - Reading services. This whilst looking good to fill a gap is not cash efficient - the patronage of services rarely fills a 3 car DMU hourly.

If you mean Hurst Green to Uckfield this service too is not really viable but the new class 171 service is increasing patronage and could become viable, especially as the trains continue to London Bridge.

Maybe this is a Bi-mode opportunity - using 172's with corridor connections attaching to 377's at Oxted so that electric power could be used from Hurst Green to London Bridge?? Probably technically impossible and would need extra sidings but would be greener (TIC)

Remember that you need to factor in the extra cost of keeping the 171s, maintaining non-standard (for Southern) diesel engines and transmissions, of fuelling points and exhaust hoods, and all the rest. They really should have done the line ten years ago, thus negating the need to order 171s in the first place.

 

[tbtc]

If you mean Hurst Green to Uckfield this service too is not really viable

Are you saying so on passenger number grounds, or on practicalities of electrifying the line (e.g. swing bridges)?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Bi-mode isn't a good option at all for that sort of service (if at all). Electric transmission is heavier, less efficient and more expensive than hydralic or mechanical transmission (the 172s having the latter, being the lightest, most efficient and cheapest for that type of unit). The savings made running on electric will be lost when running on diesel. At least third rail is better than overhead for bi-mode as the electrical equipment is lighter and less bulky (no worse than a DEMU anyway).

 

[cslusarc]

I don't remember reading anything about an option to extend the 380 order in the original contract.
Ewan

Ewan, I was saying that I thought that delivery of the Class 380s would continue into 2012. Apparently, as of 3 January 2011, ScotRail has haulted accepting delivery of remainder of the order until Siements (the manufacturer of the Class 380) has the problems are sorted out. And conservatively, I don't expect ScotRail to take delivery of the last Class 380 unit until 2012, but it could be sooner - you never know.

 

[MacCookie]

Ewan, I was saying that I thought that delivery of the Class 380s would continue into 2012. Apparently, as of 3 January 2011, ScotRail has haulted accepting delivery of remainder of the order until Siements (the manufacturer of the Class 380) has the problems are sorted out. And conservatively, I don't expect ScotRail to take delivery of the last Class 380 unit until 2012, but it could be sooner - you never know.

Deliveries resumed last week. 16 units now remaining, assuming no further issues, they should all be here by the end of May.

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+380+Formations

Ewan

 

[cslusarc]

Deliveries resumed last week. 16 units now remaining, assuming no further issues, they should all be here by the end of May.

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+380+Formations

Ewan

With the little information I know on Railways in Great Britain, I'm kinda shocked that all the remaining units will be delivered that fast. I guess a whole load of them have aready been built but not delieved yet.

 

[jopsuk]

Aye, they'll be in storage at the factory after doing their testing on the Wildenrath test track.

 

[starrymarkb]

Bi-mode isn't a good option at all for that sort of service (if at all). Electric transmission is heavier, less efficient and more expensive than hydralic or mechanical transmission (the 172s having the latter, being the lightest, most efficient and cheapest for that type of unit). The savings made running on electric will be lost when running on diesel. At least third rail is better than overhead for bi-mode as the electrical equipment is lighter and less bulky (no worse than a DEMU anyway).

How much does an AGC weigh comapred to a 172? IIRC the only Bi-Mode MUs available at the moment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorail_à_Grande_Capacité

edit: 41t per vehicle

 

[swt_passenger]

With the little information I know on Railways in Great Britain, I'm kinda shocked that all the remaining units will be delivered that fast. I guess a whole load of them have aready been built but not delieved yet.

I expect they had all been completed to the original expected dates, and held in Germany somewhere pending modification. Modern Railways March edition explained what the single 'real' fault was, and its solution. [Auxiliary converter unit replacement input filters.]

However the necessary hardware change then required vehicle acceptance certification to be revisited.

It was therefore always likely that with a known hardware solution the remaining units would arrive very quickly once given the administrative OK...