Will crossrail be using 345

[rebmcr]

Homogeneous.

 

[306024]

If your going to be doing the diagramming then yes they are probably going to have to buy more trains

Now that would be eye wateringly expensive :cry:

Or possibly "unique"?

Unique is a better word, ubiquitous just takes more spelling.
Homogeneous was a type of milk?

 

[Stats]

Crossrail will have a fleet of 65 9-car, 200m long, Class 345. These will be the only trains Crossrail has.

Not necessarily the only trains. TfL have an option to retain 18 Class 315 units to run the peak Liverpool St (mainline) service.

 

[D365]

Not necessarily the only trains. TfL have an option to retain 18 Class 315 units to run the peak Liverpool St (mainline) service.

Would make sense if they wanted to push back the platform modifications at Liverpool Street.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm surprised by that tbh as thought any service running through East to west would have loads of trains on the go at any one point .crossraill have recently recruited 400 drivers so what are they going to do ? Take turns in driving one of the 65 trains

Just working this through for you... Assuming a 5am start of service, with a 1am finish of service, that's 20hrs - in simplistic terms, you will need 2.5 drivers a day to "just" drive.

Now add onto that the pre and post shift admin that all drivers need to do (an hour each end of the day), time for breaks, I believe drivers can do six hours legally but realistically I'd expect 3-5hr blocks to fit in with operations, you've got toilet breaks, you've got turnarounds and you've restrictions on max hours per week and minimum hours between shifts. So, I'd expect 3.5 to 4 drivers per unit per day.

Now on the basis of 4 drivers to cover a 22hr working day, you would need 3.5x that to cover a 7x22hr working week (44hr Max week). Then you've got to factor in training, holidays, sickness cover, travel from base depot time and I'm sure I've missed something else. That's coming in at about 13-16 staff per train depending how long a service is run at the weekend and how tight the schedule is. Or somewhere between 800 and 1000 drivers to run 65 trains.

Have I missed anything here ?

 

[306024]

Or somewhere between 800 and 1000 drivers to run 65 trains.

Have I missed anything here ?

With Leebob34 doing the unit plan, and you doing the driver plan, between you you've just destroyed the business case for Crossrail completely. Your operating costs have just gone through the roof

Not sure what the hours admin duties all these drivers are doing, but halve your lower guess (that is all it is I'm afraid) and you're getting closer.

 

[Haydn1971]

With Leebob34 doing the unit plan, and you doing the driver plan, between you you've just destroyed the business case for Crossrail completely. Your operating costs have just gone through the roof



Not sure what the hours admin duties all these drivers are doing, but halve your lower guess (that is all it is I'm afraid) and you're getting closer.

Manpower is something that's hugely underestimated, an hour each end is probably generous I accept, but when else do drivers do their paperwork ? - I'd be interested on your breakdown

 

[306024]

I don't have a breakdown, simply recalling the press release when MTR won the concession. Calculating driver establishments is complex, but for a start productivity is higher than you've estimated in your workings.

Paperwork (if there is any) tends to be done in the drivers own time these days as a result of recent pay and productivity deals, although this does vary from TOC to TOC. Crossrail drivers won't generally have to fill in reports of train faults for example as the train itself will have sent a message before the driver even knows something is about to go wrong! (Slight exaggeration, but these are high tech trains).

Manpower could well be underestimated if that is all you do, simply estimate. Rest assured the driver numbers for Crossrail would be accurately calculated.

 

[Haydn1971]

Rest assured the driver numbers for Crossrail would be accurately calculated.

Out of pure interest, does anyone know how many drivers Crossrail will have ?

 

[332 > 444]

There is an option for them to purchase 18 more trains, just like LOROL with their 710s

 

[swt_passenger]

There is an option for them to purchase 18 more trains, just like LOROL with their 710s

I believe that will be earmarked for future western frequency increases and extensions, (such as the WCML inners). So the 66 train fleet already allows for the residual Liverpool St peak services. 66 is already a significant increase on what was originally tendered for, I think that is mainly because at an early stage of development the Liverpool St peak trains stayed with the local TOC.

 

[306024]

Out of pure interest, does anyone know how many drivers Crossrail will have ?

A two second Google of the MTR website will tell you it is almost 400.

 

[306024]

I believe that will be earmarked for future western extensions, the 66 train fleet already allows for the residual Liverpool St peak services. 66 is already a significant increase on what was originally tendered for, I think that is mainly because at an early stage of development the Liverpool St peak trains stayed with the local TOC.

There was some discussion of the GE peak trains not being Crossrail, but that nonsense soon disappeared.

 

[Haydn1971]

A two second Google of the MTR website will tell you it is almost 400.

Well no, that's how many they are "recruiting" - MTR Crossrail are already running services for TfL out of Liverpool Street with the Class 315's - I don't know how many of these are running as 4 or 8 car units, but they currently have 44 trains, which will currently need drivers and are not currently running Crossrail type frequencies.

 

[306024]

Well no, 400 is approximately how many drivers MTR are employing.

They already have just under 100 that transferred from AGA at Ilford and Gidea Park depots, who currently work the Liverpool St - Shenfield service with 8 car class 315s (you don't run a 4 car on this route unless you want a riot). So they will be recruiting around a further 300.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely some drivers transferring from Great Western to Crossrail?

 

[Haydn1971]

They already have just under 100 that transferred from AGA at Ilford and Gidea Park depots, who currently work the Liverpool St - Shenfield service with 8 car class 315s (you don't run a 4 car on this route unless you want a riot). So they will be recruiting around a further 300.

As suggested above, the headline figure is 400 drivers, not 400 new drivers - 100 existing sounds about right

 

[Leebob34]

With Leebob34 doing the unit plan, and you doing the driver plan, between you you've just destroyed the business case for Crossrail completely. Your operating costs have just gone through the roof

Not sure what the hours admin duties all these drivers are doing, but halve your lower guess (that is all it is I'm afraid) and you're getting closer.

I'm not doing the unit plans ,I'll be driving these bad boys ..
I only asked a question as heard conflicting stories on trains etc but people expected me to know everything about crossrail which I don't but obviously I knew enough in the interviews ,

 

[mrmartin]

I'm surprised how poor the frequency and length of trains are going to be on day 1. I expect the service to be pretty much crush loaded in the peaks from the second week of service or so- while people get used to the new journey options.

Can the trains easily be extended to 12 car & how quickly can that be done?

 

[Leebob34]

As suggested above, the headline figure is 400 drivers, not 400 new drivers - 100 existing sounds about right

399 now .

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can the trains easily be extended to 12 car & how quickly can that be done?

I think when the tender for stock was issued, the assumption was for 10/11-car units with 20m cars. Bombardier won the tender with 9-car 22m. The limit for extending them will be the length of platforms within the core, if those stations have been made with a bit of room for growth then lengthening trains will be an option.

 

[jopsuk]

Can the trains easily be extended to 12 car & how quickly can that be done?

They'll never be extended to 12 car. 11 car though is possible with the core's 250m platforms, but there will need to be serious work done to the GEML stations in that case.

 

[swt_passenger]

The limit for extending them will be the length of platforms within the core, if those stations have been made with a bit of room for growth then lengthening trains will be an option.

The station tunnels in the core were always described as being 250m long between headwalls, if that hasn't changed 250m is the absolute limit without the cabs being in the tunnel and some SDO.

The tunnels were to be initially fitted out for 200m trains, with an unused space at each end to allow for extension to 240m trains. Based around 20m vehicles this would have allowed an increase from 10 to 12 cars, that has been overtaken by events and must now be considered as allowing for 9 cars to be extended to 11 car, as mentioned by other posters above.

 

[Haydn1971]

Pondering if the platform doors are geared up for 27 train doors, or 30/33 ?

 

[hwl]

Pondering if the platform doors are geared up for 27 train doors, or 30/33 ?

33 but the "extra" 6 may be inoperative initially.

In terms of number of driver required: the off peak frequency is 16tph thought the core which substantial reduces the number of drivers required.